Started a new Battle Reports thread.

In light of the pervasiveness of flotillas and high activation fleets, I finally decided to play a game with the passing rule known to Imperial Assault players.

There is legitimate concern about the flotilla power creep, and much ink has been spilled on the topic. However, what we don't see is the main proposed rule change in action.

I simply created a thread for myself and other players to post their results using the proposed rule change.

Please let us know how the rule change affected your game, as well as your other thoughts and concerns using actual gameplay examples.

What happens when a ship blows up, though? Do the passing rules still apply?

14 minutes ago, geek19 said:

What happens when a ship blows up, though? Do the passing rules still apply?

The way the rule works is if your opponent has more remaining activations than you, you are allowed to pass until your opponent has an even number of remaining activations. So blowing up ships affects the number of remaining activations. I have played a couple games using this rule, albeit a while ago. We have some players interested in trying it again, though, and we'll post what we find.

13 minutes ago, Caldias said:

The way the rule works is if your opponent has more remaining activations than you, you are allowed to pass until your opponent has an even number of remaining activations. So blowing up ships affects the number of remaining activations. I have played a couple games using this rule, albeit a while ago. We have some players interested in trying it again, though, and we'll post what we find.

Right, and that's my complaint with it. Let's say its a 3 vs 4 matchup, im playing the 4. So i activate first, and then i kill a ship of his, making it 4 vs 2. Why do i get punished and have to go again if he wants to just pass so he can line up a better shot? How is that fair to me and my positioning and flying? This is a MASSIVE rule change that's going to basically turn the game into one ship flies forward at a time, giving everyone a pseudo-Konstantine power of sending one ship in at once, and there's no reason any more to take MSU when you can take a large ship instead. Some people LIKE MSU, and this is a nerf to them because why?

To be fair, I don't think passing is the right decision once everything is engaged. How is it "punishing" you to let you activate two ships back to back when those ships have shots? The rule change will likely just slightly adjust how you engage stuff.

To turn this around, why is it "fair" for you to stall activations until a two ISD ship list gets into prime position for your ships, and then you hop away into safety? Is it fair that the current game state means that a two ship list will likely never get a shot off of consequence? I've seen a ton of frustration over that scenario. Have you ever played a list with an even number of activations? I'm sure you have, because that's what much of the meta is now. The race to five activations. All this rule would do is make it so you don't HAVE to have flotillas to have even activations.

I also LOVE MSUs, and they don't exist anymore. Nearly every list is now an MSU.

19 minutes ago, Caldias said:

All this rule would do is make it so you don't HAVE to have flotillas to have even activations.

I think that's the whole point of the change, that is to make quality lists more viable without having to sacrifice points into flotillas to let your big ships get into position.

As for your 2 last sentences, don't they contradict each other?

1 minute ago, Sybreed said:

I think that's the whole point of the change, that is to make quality lists more viable without having to sacrifice points into flotillas to let your big ships get into position.

As for your 2 last sentences, don't they contradict each other?

When everything is skew, nothing is.

6 hours ago, geek19 said:

Right, and that's my complaint with it.

I totally agree at regionals this year I brought a 4 activation fleet I was out activated in every game, but in every game because my ships hit harder and blew up there ships in one shot the activation advantage swung to me. This is really a quantity vs quality debate, and in my experience I have taken lower activation fleets with high quality activations and come on top many times. I won't debate that activations are powerful, but they are not by any means overpowered. When you run into a list that has more activation's than you, you need to adjust your strategy and not play the activation game; you need to play the maneuver game. If your opponent has more activation force him to make the though decisions always threatening to blow up one of his precious activations maneuver your ships to anticipate there moves.

It's a major change and would shift the abuse from flotillas to loaded ISD/mc80s.

Try it where large based ships count as 2 activations for passing purposes maybe.

25 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

I think that's the whole point of the change, that is to make quality lists more viable without having to sacrifice points into flotillas to let your big ships get into position.

As for your 2 last sentences, don't they contradict each other?

No, because I am saying MSUs are a misnomer in the current gamestate. It used to mean multiple small units, but the multiple part is in nearly every list, as a side effect of needing activations.

And if I wanted to abuse ISDs, I can still do that, I just spam Gozantis to get there.

Anyway, I don't want to take over the intended constructiveness of @Warlord Zepnick's thread with more talk of the same.

6 minutes ago, Caldias said:

No, because I am saying MSUs are a misnomer in the current gamestate. It used to mean multiple small units, but the multiple part is in nearly every list, as a side effect of needing activations.

And if I wanted to abuse ISDs, I can still do that, I just spam Gozantis to get there.

Anyway, I don't want to take over the intended constructiveness of @Warlord Zepnick's thread with more talk of the same.

ahh that makes sense. Sorry, my lack of sleep got the better of my basic understanding of communications

1 hour ago, Caldias said:

To turn this around, why is it "fair" for you to stall activations until a two ISD ship list gets into prime position for your ships, and then you hop away into safety? Is it fair that the current game state means that a two ship list will likely never get a shot off of consequence? I've seen a ton of frustration over that scenario. Have you ever played a list with an even number of activations? I'm sure you have, because that's what much of the meta is now. The race to five activations. All this rule would do is make it so you don't HAVE to have flotillas to have even activations.

But why should a 2-ship list be viable outside of piloting and objective choice? FFG released flotillas to increase the number of activations each side, and they have done that. If I show up with 2 MC80s in my list, I SHOULD be at a disadvantage for not covering all my bases correctly. You can't viably kill that with JUST squadrons, so you need to pile damage on with MSU or your other ships so that way each list type is viable and wins are a fundamental measure of Commander skill.

Fundamentally changing the game for a rule that some people want (when it's untested) is not good design. This was tested in IA, yes, but that's a VASTLY DIFFERENT game, and it was tested by FFG playtesters, not random guys on the internet. You can say that the point of this thread is to test it out, but who actually wants this? The OP can SAY that this is the most desired rule change, but among who? The OP and several people he knows online (sounds like I'm impugning here, but I'm not, I'm trying to prove a point). If I and several other people agree online that there's nothing wrong with flotillas, there's no reason to have the rule change, by that metric, right? If I can get 30 other people online to come out and say the best rule change is to mandate everyone have 4 activations and only 4 activations each build, that's the best rule answer too, right? If the point of this to test this rule change out, why does the OP know more than FFG about how to "fix" flotillas? Is he a playtester? Does he have FFG's blessing to tell us all that this is being playtested?

Lastly, isn't this just a race backwards in activation count? If I can wait for you to come in each turn, you're either slowing the game down/trying to get people to stay out of activation range (games where the players don't interact or are trying not interact is a bad game/worse solitare) or you're pushing back towards less activations (which is not what FFG wants based on the release of flotillas). If I have 3 activations (let's say 3 ISDs) versus your 6 (4 flotillas, demolisher, raider), effectively 3 of your activations are wasted, in that I can keep passing until I force you to come closer to me when I don't want to move closer to you. So it goes: Pass, Goz1, Pass, Goz2, Pass, Goz3, ISD, Goz4, ISD, Raider, ISD, Demo. Let's say I killed one of those Gozantis during my turn (one of the ones that had previously activated, so Goz1), and I have first player. So I go and shoot Demolisher, probably at close range. I then can delay again until Demolisher goes/almost goes in order to get a better shot at it? No, that's not fair. What if you have to move that Raider into Medium/Close range when it's waiting just outside of it, waiting for you to come in? You've taken the Raider and turned it ineffective, which is bad for the ship and now you have no reason to play it. The result of this game is that I then stop using activation delay and just throw less activations in my list, because why would I need more when I can just pass until you're done?

If I sound very against this change, it's because I am. I say again, you're (well, not YOU, but the general You) FUNDAMENTALLY changing the back and forth mechanic of the game in order to fight something that's currently giving you trouble. If your opponent is building lists where he wastes 4 activations with flotillas, that's not a good list but it's working for him. How do you stop that from working for him? Let's say he has 5 flotillas and a Motti ISD? What kills that? All you need to do is take out the Motti ISD in order to "win" the game (points wise). So build for that. This is a problem that's affecting local metas, but nationally it's not significant. How many Regionals winners have 4 flotillas in their lists? How many of those flotillas are scooting around the outside instead of in the middle of the fight? Why shouldn't people get a benefit if they build for more activations. The data shows that 4 and 5 ship activations won most of the Regionals. 4 AND 5 ships. 3 ships isn't viable anymore, and that's sad, but the game changes. We have to change with it. We do not get to dictate what we want FFG to change the rules to, because it allows us to change the game back. I understand that activations are important, but what you do with those activations is just as important if not more so. 4 well used ships can kill 5 flotillas and an ISD more often than not. You have to fly well, but it's doable.

Thank you for listening to my rant, and again, @Caldias, this isn't all directed at you (no matter how many times I use You in here, that last paragraph just gets general there). Sorry if I have angry opinions on flotillas :/

56 minutes ago, geek19 said:

But why should a 2-ship list be viable outside of piloting and objective choice? FFG released flotillas to increase the number of activations each side, and they have done that. If I show up with 2 MC80s in my list, I SHOULD be at a disadvantage for not covering all my bases correctly. You can't viably kill that with JUST squadrons, so you need to pile damage on with MSU or your other ships so that way each list type is viable and wins are a fundamental measure of Commander skill.

Fundamentally changing the game for a rule that some people want (when it's untested) is not good design. This was tested in IA, yes, but that's a VASTLY DIFFERENT game, and it was tested by FFG playtesters, not random guys on the internet. You can say that the point of this thread is to test it out, but who actually wants this? The OP can SAY that this is the most desired rule change, but among who? The OP and several people he knows online (sounds like I'm impugning here, but I'm not, I'm trying to prove a point). If I and several other people agree online that there's nothing wrong with flotillas, there's no reason to have the rule change, by that metric, right? If I can get 30 other people online to come out and say the best rule change is to mandate everyone have 4 activations and only 4 activations each build, that's the best rule answer too, right? If the point of this to test this rule change out, why does the OP know more than FFG about how to "fix" flotillas? Is he a playtester? Does he have FFG's blessing to tell us all that this is being playtested?

Lastly, isn't this just a race backwards in activation count? If I can wait for you to come in each turn, you're either slowing the game down/trying to get people to stay out of activation range (games where the players don't interact or are trying not interact is a bad game/worse solitare) or you're pushing back towards less activations (which is not what FFG wants based on the release of flotillas). If I have 3 activations (let's say 3 ISDs) versus your 6 (4 flotillas, demolisher, raider), effectively 3 of your activations are wasted, in that I can keep passing until I force you to come closer to me when I don't want to move closer to you. So it goes: Pass, Goz1, Pass, Goz2, Pass, Goz3, ISD, Goz4, ISD, Raider, ISD, Demo. Let's say I killed one of those Gozantis during my turn (one of the ones that had previously activated, so Goz1), and I have first player. So I go and shoot Demolisher, probably at close range. I then can delay again until Demolisher goes/almost goes in order to get a better shot at it? No, that's not fair. What if you have to move that Raider into Medium/Close range when it's waiting just outside of it, waiting for you to come in? You've taken the Raider and turned it ineffective, which is bad for the ship and now you have no reason to play it. The result of this game is that I then stop using activation delay and just throw less activations in my list, because why would I need more when I can just pass until you're done?

If I sound very against this change, it's because I am. I say again, you're (well, not YOU, but the general You) FUNDAMENTALLY changing the back and forth mechanic of the game in order to fight something that's currently giving you trouble. If your opponent is building lists where he wastes 4 activations with flotillas, that's not a good list but it's working for him. How do you stop that from working for him? Let's say he has 5 flotillas and a Motti ISD? What kills that? All you need to do is take out the Motti ISD in order to "win" the game (points wise). So build for that. This is a problem that's affecting local metas, but nationally it's not significant. How many Regionals winners have 4 flotillas in their lists? How many of those flotillas are scooting around the outside instead of in the middle of the fight? Why shouldn't people get a benefit if they build for more activations. The data shows that 4 and 5 ship activations won most of the Regionals. 4 AND 5 ships. 3 ships isn't viable anymore, and that's sad, but the game changes. We have to change with it. We do not get to dictate what we want FFG to change the rules to, because it allows us to change the game back. I understand that activations are important, but what you do with those activations is just as important if not more so. 4 well used ships can kill 5 flotillas and an ISD more often than not. You have to fly well, but it's doable.

Thank you for listening to my rant, and again, @Caldias, this isn't all directed at you (no matter how many times I use You in here, that last paragraph just gets general there). Sorry if I have angry opinions on flotillas :/

I think the rule should be tested, if only so everyone is on the same page when we have a discussion. I'm all for testing it, but it won't change how I build lists right now. I'm still gunna take 1 or 2 flotillas if it suites the list. Comms Net and squad pushers are great for 20sum points.

The only downside I see from this rule change is people start bidding to go first again. Because now you can take 3 ships, bid for first and force your opponent to move into your arcs for next turn.

I'm also curious how this rule change will compare to IA, since in IA you alternate initiative, so one player isn't given all the benefits.

I mean, the thread is about testing the rule and seeing how it affects the game. Nobody's dictating that the game must be played that way. We're simply curious to see how it will play and see if it makes list building more interesting.

It is with great reluctance that I have opened this thread. I won't talk about the flotillas issue. I love the forum. I love Armada. Once this test has ended, I will lay down the powers you have given me!

Oh we know how that turned out in history.

I am just waiting.

48 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

It is with great reluctance that I have opened this thread. I won't talk about the flotillas issue. I love the forum. I love Armada. Once this test has ended, I will lay down the powers you have given me!

I am the FFG!

2 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

I am the FFG!

The geek reference.

The good one.

34 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

The geek reference.

The good one.

*coughs*

6 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

*coughs*

What is his quote?

I cannot remember anything like "L'Etat, c'est moi".

I'm in the camp that this isn't really broken, but if your testing, maybe try making flotillas activate in the Squad phase instead? Focuses the fix on the problem unit more maybe.

57 minutes ago, homedrone said:

I'm in the camp that this isn't really broken, but if your testing, maybe try making flotillas activate in the Squad phase instead? Focuses the fix on the problem unit more maybe.

That doesn't fix anything though. Why do I have to wait to push squadrons until the squadron phase if I want to push them earlier?

Because you are doing it with a flotilla? If you think you need to push them earlier, do it with a "warship".

At least, that was the idea of my suggestion. Flotillas don't give you any activation advantage, and they don't let you move squads early. But they are cheap, and they will work with relay and do have AS ability and BCC.. etc. So they are still useful.