24 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I was agreeing with him, just pointing out another possible scenario;

I see

I was mostly wanting to make another point about how bad of an idea this all is. But typically zero tolerance and one size fits all solutions are bad.

It is IMO far better to let the Judge and players work out an equitable solution to cases like this, since how much impact the foul actually has is going to vary greatly. In some cases it could decide the game, in others it could have no real impact at all.

If I was going to do a straight 4 so I could set up for next turn, and this turn have nothing to shoot at, or that could shoot me no matter what is done, then there isn't exactly much that's gained by the other guy knowing it ahead of time. Heck there's times where you could play with your dials face up, and it wouldn't really change the game in any meaningful way.

As it is, the Judge and players can sort out what seems a fair fix in the case of an honest mistake, and deal with it if it's not an honest mistake.

Lastly given that the Judge normally has pretty broad authority to deal with situations as they see fit, the whole idea of floor rules don't actually make much sense, because they're really nothing more than suggestions in the first place.

@Turbo Toker I get what you are saying, but you're extremely unfamiliar with other competitive games and sports/confused about translating to x-wing.

Example one: in magic the gathering, say you play a card not in your registered decklist, you get a GAME loss, not a match loss.

Example two: in football, if you have an illegal formation/offsides/(insert here) block penalty, the team receives a penalty.

If you would like additional examples, I could go on. The goal is to run the game the best as possible, if someone messed up, rectify the issue, and progress. If someone is found to be intentionally cheating, it is a disqualification. FFG banned the guy who was found cheating on stream from OP events.

What is the confusion here? If found intentionally cheating you get banned. If accidental, you get a penalty.

18 minutes ago, chervorlovesu said:

@Turbo Toker I get what you are saying, but you're extremely unfamiliar with other competitive games and sports/confused about translating to x-wing.

Example one: in magic the gathering, say you play a card not in your registered decklist, you get a GAME loss, not a match loss.

Example two: in football, if you have an illegal formation/offsides/(insert here) block penalty, the team receives a penalty.

If you would like additional examples, I could go on. The goal is to run the game the best as possible, if someone messed up, rectify the issue, and progress. If someone is found to be intentionally cheating, it is a disqualification. FFG banned the guy who was found cheating on stream from OP events.

What is the confusion here? If found intentionally cheating you get banned. If accidental, you get a penalty.

I don't play magic or sports.

The penalty has to be worse than any benefit gained from doing it. The idea that knowing what your opponent is doing doesn't matter that much is astounding to me.

Look, I understand that if it was a game loss, you could just falsely accuse someone of it. I understand that. But that's no different than any other form of cheating. If the judge witnesses it it or other players do, then a determination can be made. If it's just a he said, she said argument, then nothing can be done.

You can roll dice, blatantly change the results improperly before your opponent's very eyes, and if there are no witnesses then your opponent's accusation of cheating is effectively meaningless. That doesn't mean cheating with dice shouldn't have a punishment.

2 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

I don't play magic or sports, and so will be purposefully and willfully obtuse.

The penalty has to be worse than any benefit gained from doing it. This is my opinion. The idea that knowing what your opponent is doing doesn't matter that much is astounding to me. I am flabbergasted that there are opinions that are not my own.

Look, I understand that if it was a game loss, you could just falsely accuse someone of it. I understand that. But that's no different than any other form of cheating. If the judge witnesses it it or other players do, then a determination can be made. If it's just a he said, she said argument, then nothing can be done. I demand a ruling of game loss in a situation I just conceded will be unenforceable.

You can roll dice, change the results improperly, and if there are no witnesses then your opponent's accusation of cheating is effectively meaningless. That doesn't mean cheating with dice should have a punishment. A punishment that I just by previous example illustrated was unenforceable.

I'm just trying to translate. Arguing is pointless, you won't concede anything but a sense of shock that you are in the minority of players who demand more draconian measures taken to ensure the sanctity of our plastic spaceship game.

14 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

The penalty has to be worse than any benefit gained from doing it.

This is true.

14 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

The idea that knowing what your opponent is doing doesn't matter that much is astounding to me.

Then you must not play this game very much. Because there's going to be a number of times in which knowing a single ships maneuver after the dials are already set is going to have either little if not no impact on the game itself.

14 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

That doesn't mean cheating with dice shouldn't have a punishment.

Cheating with dice does have a punishment, so does looking at someone's dial. The punishment is whatever the Judge feels is appropriate in the given situation. In both cases if it's blatant cheating like you mention then the punishment will be the same.

Just like if someone bumps a dice and neither side can remember what was rolled shouldn't result in a game loss, neither should looking at dial when a more suitable resolution can be achieved.

Because while the penalty must an actual penalty that doesn't mean execution is appropriate in every case, and that's what you're asking for her effectively. A game loss and loss of MOV is going to almost every time knock you out of running for the top seats in any given tournament.

23 minutes ago, E Chu Ta said:

I'm just trying to translate. Arguing is pointless, you won't concede anything but a sense of shock that you are in the minority of players who demand more draconian measures taken to ensure the sanctity of our plastic spaceship game.

"You have the minority opinion, so shut up"

"It's just plastic spaceships, nothing actually matters"

"I'm going to say that your side of the argument is merely an opinion in order to imply that my side of the argument is any better OR Your opinion isn't any more valid than anyone else's, everything is subjective, no one can win this argument. My side still wins though"

Okay.

30 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

This is true.

Then you must not play this game very much. Because there's going to be a number of times in which knowing a single ships maneuver after the dials are already set is going to have either little if not no impact on the game itself.

Cheating with dice does have a punishment, so does looking at someone's dial. The punishment is whatever the Judge feels is appropriate in the given situation. In both cases if it's blatant cheating like you mention then the punishment will be the same.

Just like if someone bumps a dice and neither side can remember what was rolled shouldn't result in a game loss, neither should looking at dial when a more suitable resolution can be achieved.

Because while the penalty must an actual penalty that doesn't mean execution is appropriate in every case, and that's what you're asking for her effectively. A game loss and loss of MOV is going to almost every time knock you out of running for the top seats in any given tournament.

My argument is that the solution given by even Worlds Judges or game designers is flawed and game able.

If a punishment less severe than a game loss can accomplish this, I'm all for that. NH Gunsmith's suggestions are decent, but still not perfect. They're still better than what Worlds Judges have said though.

Next time I play, I'll reveal an opponent's dial at a crucial moment. Then when my dumbfounded opponent stammers out, "What the **** are you doing?" I'll say, "There are many times where knowing an opponent's dial after maneuvers have already been set has little if no impact, it's just plastic spaceships bro fly casual." That will go over well, especially at worlds.

9 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Next time I play, I'll reveal an opponent's dial at a crucial moment. Then when my dumbfounded opponent stammers out, "What the **** are you doing?" I'll say, "There are many times where knowing an opponent's dial after maneuvers have already been set has little if no impact, it's just plastic spaceships bro fly casual." That will go over well, especially at worlds.

... PGS? Is that you?

Just now, Jeff Wilder said:

... PGS? Is that you?

No. I'm amused by your comparison though.

Both of us say true things in spite of massive opposition.

7 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Both of us say true things in spite of massive opposition.

... 45? Is that you?

Just now, Jeff Wilder said:

... 45? Is that you?

I don't know who that is.

45 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

My argument is that the solution given by even Worlds Judges or game designers is flawed and game able.

If a punishment less severe than a game loss can accomplish this, I'm all for that. NH Gunsmith's suggestions are decent, but still not perfect. They're still better than what Worlds Judges have said though.

Next time I play, I'll reveal an opponent's dial at a crucial moment. Then when my dumbfounded opponent stammers out, "What the **** are you doing?" I'll say, "There are many times where knowing an opponent's dial after maneuvers have already been set has little if no impact, it's just plastic spaceships bro fly casual." That will go over well, especially at worlds.

And if you're blatantly cheating (obviously revealing a dial and saying that quote), you'll get worse penalties than what they used for accidentally picking up your opponents dial instead of your own.

2 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

Next time I play, I'll reveal an opponent's dial at a crucial moment. Then when my dumbfounded opponent stammers out, "What the **** are you doing?" I'll say, "There are many times where knowing an opponent's dial after maneuvers have already been set has little if no impact, it's just plastic spaceships bro fly casual." That will go over well, especially at worlds.

This isn't the same thing as your OP. This is clearly cheating, so the consequences are different.

Your original post suggests penalizing accidents the exact same as cheating with no in between.

26 minutes ago, AlexW said:

This isn't the same thing as your OP. This is clearly cheating, so the consequences are different.

Your original post suggests penalizing accidents the exact same as cheating with no in between.

^ This.

30 minutes ago, AlexW said:

This isn't the same thing as your OP. This is clearly cheating, so the consequences are different.

Your original post suggests penalizing accidents the exact same as cheating with no in between.

How would you know that it was intentional? This is my point, that you can't tell whether or not it's intentional, and that it shouldn't matter.

I also came up with that hypothetical situation in order to point out how silly it was to think that hidden dial information doesn't matter. I pointed out how silly it would be to use that argument as an excuse.

Still preferable than having an honest mistake lead to an instant game loss. No matter how you may dress it up and how much you come up with ridiculous scenarios about how it's perfectly fine to flip someone else's dial. I refuse to give someone a game loss for a mistake that two reasonable adults can solve at a table by themselves.

If they are unable to come to an agreement, then clearly they are not being adults and require a judge to make a ruling and further supervision throughout the tournament.

Not everything can be accounted for in the rules, you have to allow circumstances to alter the event.

but of course your argument will be "That's fine, I'll just flip a dial once per tournament when it's important to gain decent information." There's a word for that and it is called cheating and maybe you'll get away with it once...but I **** well would remember you doing that a second time.

1 hour ago, Turbo Toker said:

How would you know that it was intentional? This is my point, that you can't tell whether or not it's intentional, and that it shouldn't matter.

I also came up with that hypothetical situation in order to point out how silly it was to think that hidden dial information doesn't matter. I pointed out how silly it would be to use that argument as an excuse.

In the section I quoted, your intent was clear, and it's a "silly" hypothetical no one's arguing that it never matters, just that there are times when it actually doesn't help.

@Turbo Toker I still haven't heard you comment on the possibility of your own proposed penalty system being used to cheat. Would you please address this?

4 hours ago, SabineKey said:

@Turbo Toker I still haven't heard you comment on the possibility of your own proposed penalty system being used to cheat. Would you please address this?

Helios commented on it first, and then within the last few pages I've commented on it. You just missed it.

It's no different than any other rule violation. If the judge isn't there and there are no witnesses, then it's just a he said she said argument and little can be done. But that doesn't mean that the game shouldn't have rules in place.

Just because judges can't be everywhere doesn't mean the game shouldn't have rules or punishments for violating them.

One suggestion: allow use of personalized dials. I'm not sure about how much "modifying" is allowed in official tournaments, but this should prevent any confusion. If somebody were to pick up my rainbow striped maneuver wheel, it'd have to be intentional. I'd be fine with severe consequences then. But only in a tournament setting, of course.

Or - and this is my personal favorite - just use intelligence agents and do it all the time...

6 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

Helios commented on it first, and then within the last few pages I've commented on it. You just missed it.

It's no different than any other rule violation. If the judge isn't there and there are no witnesses, then it's just a he said she said argument and little can be done. But that doesn't mean that the game shouldn't have rules in place.

Just because judges can't be everywhere doesn't mean the game shouldn't have rules or punishments for violating them.

That still doesn't answer why the cost of one kind of cheating is worth another.

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

That still doesn't answer why the cost of one kind of cheating is worth another.

When dealing with someone who believes the penalty for an honest mistake or intentional cheating should be a game loss, which in a tournament means you're done... There's no point in asking questions like that because the answer they'll have isn't any better than the original suggestion.

Myself I'm done beating my head against this particular wall.

1 hour ago, VanorDM said:

When dealing with someone who believes the penalty for an honest mistake or intentional cheating should be a game loss, which in a tournament means you're done... There's no point in asking questions like that because the answer they'll have isn't any better than the original suggestion.

Myself I'm done beating my head against this particular wall.

Right. The OP has two people that liked his first post. Two people providing counter arguments to the OP have 29 and 30+ likes on the first page but the discussion goes on for 8 more pages......It's pretty clear that, regardless of what the OP thinks is "right," that he's in a very small minority in the severity of the consequence he would like to see.

16 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

"You have the minority opinion, so shut up" I have an untenable position, and will adopt a stance wherein I am the victim.

"It's just plastic spaceships, nothing actually matters" I take this game entirely seriously. This game has far reaching consequences in my life and how I live it.

"I'm going to say that your side of the argument is merely an opinion in order to imply that my side of the argument is any better OR Your opinion isn't any more valid than anyone else's, everything is subjective, no one can win this argument. My side still wins though" I wear my victimhood as a suit of armor to protect me from having to defend my position substantively.

Okay. Dismissing criticism is my only tactic in this discussion.

In no way am I trying to silence you. How have the same right to speak your piece as I do. What I am trying to do is reflect how your behavior reads to one other person. This is a game, with agreed upon rules, which is played voluntarily. The difference between your opinion and mine is that my position is entirely comfortable with the status quo, as things are currently run, for this situation. Which is to say my opinion supports the game as it is run now. Your opinion demands a change to the way things is run. Your position has the uphill battle here, because yours is the position that demands change. The resistance you are receiving is because those opposing your position see your thesis as absurdly harsh, illustrated by post after post in this very thread. This doesn't make you wrong, but does illustrate that your argument lacks traction, and without popular support things are more likely to stay as they are than become what they are not.

15 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

Both of us say true things in spite of massive opposition. My opinion is the truth. I am burdened with martyrdom for a righteous cause.

Once you confuse your opinion with truth, you stop being a part of a discussion and instead become a Prophet, bearing a message from on high.

Prophets are not to be debated.

16 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

My argument is that the solution given by even Worlds Judges or game designers is flawed and game able. (Thesis statement.)

If a punishment less severe than a game loss can accomplish this, I'm all for that. NH Gunsmith's suggestions are decent, but still not perfect. They're still better than what Worlds Judges have said though. (Proven untrue by activity in thread)

Next time I play, I'll reveal an opponent's dial at a crucial moment. Then when my dumbfounded opponent stammers out, "What the **** are you doing?" I'll say, "There are many times where knowing an opponent's dial after maneuvers have already been set has little if no impact, it's just plastic spaceships bro fly casual." That will go over well, especially at worlds. (Baby-shoes tantrum/meltdown)

This thread is peppered with those who have been the perpetrators and on the receiving end of the infraction you wish to punish so harshly. The situation, under the status quo, as resolved by the game as it is currently run, was resolved and play continued. There is no shadow army of dial-peekers who will seize upon this vulnerability in the weak governance of Tournament Judges, bringing the game as we know it to it's knees, committing blaspheme and sacrilege as they trample the noble, "sacred" sanctity of the hidden dial. We come together to play a game. Cheaters exist, but I wager they are far outnumbered by the kind of folks who make a mistake, and as such all receive the resolution on a case by case basis by the judge on the floor. I am comfortable with this.

As to the crowning statement of this last quote, I can say that this is why you, so righteous, so passionate, so just, are mistaken throughout this thread for the filthy sort of degenerate cheater you seek to uproot and expell.

Because you say that you'll cheat.

30 minutes ago, E Chu Ta said:

In no way am I trying to silence you. How have the same right to speak your piece as I do. What I am trying to do is reflect how your behavior reads to one other person. This is a game, with agreed upon rules, which is played voluntarily. The difference between your opinion and mine is that my position is entirely comfortable with the status quo, as things are currently run, for this situation. Which is to say my opinion supports the game as it is run now. Your opinion demands a change to the way things is run. Your position has the uphill battle here, because yours is the position that demands change. The resistance you are receiving is because those opposing your position see your thesis as absurdly harsh, illustrated by post after post in this very thread. This doesn't make you wrong, but does illustrate that your argument lacks traction, and without popular support things are more likely to stay as they are than become what they are not.

Once you confuse your opinion with truth, you stop being a part of a discussion and instead become a Prophet, bearing a message from on high.

Prophets are not to be debated.

This thread is peppered with those who have been the perpetrators and on the receiving end of the infraction you wish to punish so harshly. The situation, under the status quo, as resolved by the game as it is currently run, was resolved and play continued. There is no shadow army of dial-peekers who will seize upon this vulnerability in the weak governance of Tournament Judges, bringing the game as we know it to it's knees, committing blaspheme and sacrilege as they trample the noble, "sacred" sanctity of the hidden dial. We come together to play a game. Cheaters exist, but I wager they are far outnumbered by the kind of folks who make a mistake, and as such all receive the resolution on a case by case basis by the judge on the floor. I am comfortable with this.

As to the crowning statement of this last quote, I can say that this is why you, so righteous, so passionate, so just, are mistaken throughout this thread for the filthy sort of degenerate cheater you seek to uproot and expell.

Because you say that you'll cheat.

The OP has clarified multiple times that his 'I'm going to cheat' statements are rhetorical devices. He's also invited others to offer lesser penalties than that for which he called in the original post.