13 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Exactly! Players won't have to worry about packing pistols and epees and dealing with the TSA. They can just concentrate on the game. And wonder what the hell an epee is.

It's a pen for allergic reactions. Sheesh.

3 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

You also only got a warning. That's more like bringing an illegal list (101 points or something). And either way, what's being suggested in this thread is to skip the warning and go straight to game loss.

I got a warning because the game hadn't even started yet. I can't look up the rules right now, but I'm pretty sure I would at least have gotten a game loss, probably a match loss if we had actually started the game (Magic matches are 2 out of 3 games, for those who haven't played).

3 minutes ago, Helias de Nappo said:

I got a warning because the game hadn't even started yet. I can't look up the rules right now, but I'm pretty sure I would at least have gotten a game loss, probably a match loss if we had actually started the game (Magic matches are 2 out of 3 games, for those who haven't played).

And when you're playing an illegal deck, a game loss would make perfect sense. I'd probably give the same for a player at an x-wing tournament who's playing an illegal list. That's still different from accidentally picking up the wrong dial in game.

13 hours ago, Sergovan said:

I was playing a mirror Rebel mach and I wanted to look at my X-wings dial but ended up picking up my opponents dial by mistake. I felt horrible. It was the first and only time I had ever done that. Since none of our ships had repositioning, we left all dials as is and played as they were, even thought I was thinking of changing a dial I left it as is and played what I had set.

It can happen by mistake but it shouldn't be repeated. Also, a non-mirror match dial pick up is too bizarre and inconceivable to be accidental.

If it is during a mirror match the penalty should be no repositioning actions and dials go with what is set on them.

During a non-mirror match it should be a game loss for first offence and DQ for the second, barring extenuating circumstances.

Approximately 8% of the male population has colorblindness to one degree or another. It is not quite as inconceivable as you may think if the colors are not as starkly different as you see them. Also, one could be thinking about other aspects of the game/planning/chatting with the opponent/played the other faction last game and was used to picking up the different color dial/whatever else that could be distracting them as they pick up a dial.

Have you ever been driving home from work and got caught up in a conversation with someone else in the car or listening to a radio program or whatever? Then all of the sudden realize that you had been driving on mental "autopilot" for a few minutes and then not remembered some drive details, missed an exit, or whatnot?

Game auto loss seems very excessive. Why not consider some other form of penalty that fits the crime more appropriately (such as how I suggested a few posts ago)?

Also for the mirror match, you suggested not allowing re-positioning as the penalty. What if I selected my maneuver, assuming that I would need to barrel roll to block you or get a shot? Then I accidentally pick up your dial and realize that I would have a shot on you without having to barrel roll or could block you without having to barrel roll because you did a different maneuver than I guessed you did. Well, then I could just take my focus or target lock and be happy that your "punishment" actually helped me. My previous suggestion would ensure that there would be no way of beneficially using the advantage of looking at the dial.

1 hour ago, Shrike37 said:

Approximately 8% of the male population has colorblindness to one degree or another. It is not quite as inconceivable as you may think if the colors are not as starkly different as you see them.

I have some colorblindness. The Rebel/Scum dials look identical to me unless I'm concentrating.

I also used to shoot my own team members when playing Laser Tag a long time ago.

Well, if all the likes on my reply about keeping my dials on my cards is any indication, I think FFG should at this point rewrite the rule book about placing the dials on the board near the ship. I think that is the most likes i got for a single post...and every day I keep seeing more and more.

3 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

And Magic has the judging infrastructure to be like this. FFG doesn't and has zero interest in 'being taken seriously as a competitive game'.

You might be right about this. You're probably right about this. I don't see why anyone would travel from Europe or Asia or wherever in the world to play in a World Championship X-Wing Miniatures Tournament that's really just a kitchen table casual game where all sorts of slop is tolerated though (I hope that doesn't come off snarky - it isn't meant to). I'd have to take the competition pretty seriously to go to that kind of effort.

16 minutes ago, Helias de Nappo said:

You might be right about this. You're probably right about this. I don't see why anyone would travel from Europe or Asia or wherever in the world to play in a World Championship X-Wing Miniatures Tournament that's really just a kitchen table casual game where all sorts of slop is tolerated though (I hope that doesn't come off snarky - it isn't meant to). I'd have to take the competition pretty seriously to go to that kind of effort.

TBH I've worked on GPs and PTs for years and WOTC aren't interested in being seen as a serious competitive game either, really. They'd kill the Pro Tour tomorrow if they didn't think the lack of PTQ revenue wouldn't smash their bottom line. They've been close to killing it a couple of times to my knowledge.

2 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

TBH I've worked on GPs and PTs for years and WOTC aren't interested in being seen as a serious competitive game either, really. They'd kill the Pro Tour tomorrow if they didn't think the lack of PTQ revenue wouldn't smash their bottom line. They've been close to killing it a couple of times to my knowledge.

One day soon I hope they do. I'm tired of modern getting cards banned because of the pro tour. *cough* Splinter Twin *cough*.

8 hours ago, Helias de Nappo said:

You might be right about this. You're probably right about this. I don't see why anyone would travel from Europe or Asia or wherever in the world to play in a World Championship X-Wing Miniatures Tournament that's really just a kitchen table casual game where all sorts of slop is tolerated though (I hope that doesn't come off snarky - it isn't meant to). I'd have to take the competition pretty seriously to go to that kind of effort.

The idea that Magic has the judging infrastructure and X-Wing does not and that competitive play doesn't even count is ridiculous.

An extra page in the tournament regulations or FAQ with some example situations does not require "having enough judging infrastructure".

If you're colorblind or playing a mirror match, then dials can/should be allowed on cards. If you're not willing to show up to a local store night because you might get a game loss for cheating, intentionally or not, I don't know what to say to you.

If you're going to hate competitive play because it's competitive and won't tolerate cheating, then maybe you should nut up.

3 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

If you're colorblind or playing a mirror match, then dials can/should be allowed on cards. If you're not willing to show up to a local store night because you might get a game loss for cheating, intentionally or not, I don't know what to say to you.

If you're going to hate competitive play because it's competitive and won't tolerate cheating, then maybe you should nut up.

Well, apparently the only way to stop this wide spread cheating pandemic that is plaguing the X-Wing tabletops is to just take the human element out of the game. Anything that involves human input will never be perfect and always have mistakes. Have you never made a mistake playing any game ever? You make it sound like you never have.

And also, so your saying that people like me and my old group where there are people with slight cognitive issues due to our military service should just never play the game outside of our houses because we mainly play for fun, and are apparently a group of cheaters who deserve to be booted for seemingly every rules infraction or mistake we might make?

I don't ever want to play at the top tables for this game, because I know my limitations and issues. I do agree that people playing at such a high level should be held to a higher standard, and there should be some sort of set basis of punishment (at those levels) for mistakes like what you are so adamant about. What I don't want though, is for every game to be held to such high standards. I play in local tournaments because for the most part, I and the other people there are casual gamers looking to have some good fun and a little competition. We filthy casuals make mistakes, and I would hate to have somebody's day ruined who might have taken time off of work or had to hire a babysitter for their kids to come play because he isn't super duper hardcore into a game where we push around small plastic ships making "pew pew" noises and roll some dice. What is his incentive, or that of a newer player to come back?

4 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

The idea that Magic has the judging infrastructure and X-Wing does not and that competitive play doesn't even count is ridiculous.

An extra page in the tournament regulations or FAQ with some example situations does not require "having enough judging infrastructure".

If you're colorblind or playing a mirror match, then dials can/should be allowed on cards. If you're not willing to show up to a local store night because you might get a game loss for cheating, intentionally or not, I don't know what to say to you.

If you're going to hate competitive play because it's competitive and won't tolerate cheating, then maybe you should nut up.

If you're going to hate competitive play because it's not competitive enough and allows room for human error then maybe you should... nut down? Nut off? Nut over?

You should come back to read these posts in a few months and you'll maybe realise how daft you sound.

20 minutes ago, NH Gunsmith said:

Well, apparently the only way to stop this wide spread cheating pandemic that is plaguing the X-Wing tabletops is to just take the human element out of the game. Anything that involves human input will never be perfect and always have mistakes. Have you never made a mistake playing any game ever? You make it sound like you never have.

And also, so your saying that people like me and my old group where there are people with slight cognitive issues due to our military service should just never play the game outside of our houses because we mainly play for fun, and are apparently a group of cheaters who deserve to be booted for seemingly every rules infraction or mistake we might make?

I don't ever want to play at the top tables for this game, because I know my limitations and issues. I do agree that people playing at such a high level should be held to a higher standard, and there should be some sort of set basis of punishment (at those levels) for mistakes like what you are so adamant about. What I don't want though, is for every game to be held to such high standards. I play in local tournaments because for the most part, I and the other people there are casual gamers looking to have some good fun and a little competition. We filthy casuals make mistakes, and I would hate to have somebody's day ruined who might have taken time off of work or had to hire a babysitter for their kids to come play because he isn't super duper hardcore into a game where we push around small plastic ships making "pew pew" noises and roll some dice. What is his incentive, or that of a newer player to come back?

If picking up an opponent's dial is a big risk for you, then request that dials be placed on cards instead.

Dials can also be marked with stickers on the plastic rivets or with the fancy plastic dial kits.

Dials remaining hidden is crucial to the integrity of this game. It's a significant part of playing this game, in the same way that keeping your hand secret in a card game is. There has to be a significant disincentive to breaking this sanctity, and an opponent getting to change one of your dials in response would often be worth just internationally looking at an opponent's dial.

It's not meant as an attack on you. I don't see what the issue is, just don't pick up an opponent's dial. If you're prone to doing it, be careful and take precautions.

12 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

If you're going to hate competitive play because it's not competitive enough and allows room for human error then maybe you should... nut down? Nut off? Nut over?

You should come back to read these posts in a few months and you'll maybe realise how daft you sound.

I am still dumbfounded by how much resistance I'm getting for my suggestion. For 6 pages with every response I've been staring wide eyed, blinking, with my mouth agape.

Maneuver selection remaining hidden is sacred. Violating that should have an actual punishment, not some meaningless warning or some poorly thought out "punishment" that's worth it in order to look at an opponent's dial on a crucial turn.

9 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

If picking up an opponent's dial is a big risk for you, then request that dials be placed on cards instead.

Dials can also be marked with stickers on the plastic rivets or with the fancy plastic dial kits.

Dials remaining hidden is crucial to the integrity of this game. It's a significant part of playing this game, in the same way that keeping your hand secret in a card game is. There has to be a significant disincentive to breaking this sanctity, and an opponent getting to change one of your dials in response would often be worth just internationally looking at an opponent's dial.

It's not meant as an attack on you. I don't see what the issue is, just don't pick up an opponent's dial. If you're prone to doing it, be careful and take precautions.

Hah, my apologies if my last post seemed a bit defensive. I agree that knowing what your opponent has picked does destroy the joy of being able to predict and outmanuever your opponent, and that is why I have painted the sides of my dials. I do everything I can not to make mistakes, and I very rarely pick up an opponents dial (I think twice in total since I four years ago). I wasn't the main perpetrator of dial peeking in my old group, and we all knew that it was done by that gentleman without any malicious intent and we moved on with it like adults.

I also completely agree with you that there has to be a base punishment for looking at a dial that judges can refer to in a large organized tournment. But a game loss in a format that isn't best 2-3 games just seems to be a little too harsh.

5 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

I am still dumbfounded by how much resistance I'm getting for my suggestion. For 6 pages with every response I've been staring wide eyed, blinking, with my mouth agape.

Maneuver selection remaining hidden is sacred. Violating that should have an actual punishment, not some meaningless warning or some poorly thought out "punishment" that's worth it in order to look at an opponent's dial on a crucial turn.

Instead of a game loss, how about the individual who looked at the ships dial must finish placing all of theirs, and the ship whose dial got looked at can be placed anywhere in the game area and select a new maneuver by the victim.

4 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

I am still dumbfounded by how much resistance I'm getting for my suggestion. For 6 pages with every response I've been staring wide eyed, blinking, with my mouth agape.

Maybe it's just you then?

I think you should find something else to care about as much as you care about the possibility that somebody somewhere, at any moment, could be finding out that their opponent dialed a 2 turn not a 2 bank. OH, THE HUMANITY! WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!?

1 minute ago, NH Gunsmith said:

Hah, my apologies if my last post seemed a bit defensive. I agree that knowing what your opponent has picked does destroy the joy of being able to predict and outmanuever your opponent, and that is why I have painted the sides of my dials. I do everything I can not to make mistakes, and I very rarely pick up an opponents dial (I think twice in total since I four years ago). I wasn't the main perpetrator of dial peeking in my old group, and we all knew that it was done by that gentleman without any malicious intent and we moved on with it like adults.

I also completely agree with you that there has to be a base punishment for looking at a dial that judges can refer to in a large organized tournment. But a game loss in a format that isn't best 2-3 games just seems to be a little too harsh.

This is the issue. You have to have a punishment for it that would override the benefit of looking at an opponent's dial.

If something short of a game loss would accomplish this, I'm all for that. It just cannot be something like, "Your opponent gets to change one of your dials in response" or, "nothing happens except a warning the first time" because then the benefits of doing it would outweigh the downsides.

The bottom line, once again for the cheap seats.

ORGANISED PLAY IS NOT INTERESTED IN WHO WINS. THEY DON'T CARE. IT'S NOT THEIR JOB TO ENSURE THE BEST PLAYER WINS. THE BEST PLAYER WINNING MAY ACTUALLY BE WHAT THEY WANT TO AVOID. ENJOY THE GAME. FLY CASUAL.

1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:

The bottom line, once again for the cheap seats.

ORGANISED PLAY IS NOT INTERESTED IN WHO WINS. THEY DON'T CARE. IT'S NOT THEIR JOB TO ENSURE THE BEST PLAYER WINS. THE BEST PLAYER WINNING MAY ACTUALLY BE WHAT THEY WANT TO AVOID. ENJOY THE GAME. FLY CASUAL.

When Paul Heaver wins 3 consecutive World Championships, it makes the game look good. It proves that dice luck takes a back seat to skill.

If organized play doesn't care about competition and the best player winning, why does it even exist?

I've worked in Organised Play for several companies and it's almost always a subdivision of Marketing.

Organised Play exists to provide a reason for people to buy ships. The End.

10 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

This is the issue. You have to have a punishment for it that would override the benefit of looking at an opponent's dial.

If something short of a game loss would accomplish this, I'm all for that. It just cannot be something like, "Your opponent gets to change one of your dials in response" or, "nothing happens except a warning the first time" because then the benefits of doing it would outweigh the downsides.

Would my last post not give us the solution that we are looking for?

The offending player must now finish planning all of their maneuvers not knowing where the ship whose dial they looked at is going to end up. And the player who got their dial looked at gets to place their ship wherever they like and select a move for it.

To me that seems a fair punishment and keeps the game going without slowing it down too much.

20 minutes ago, NH Gunsmith said:

Would my last post not give us the solution that we are looking for?

The offending player must now finish planning all of their maneuvers not knowing where the ship whose dial they looked at is going to end up. And the player who got their dial looked at gets to place their ship wherever they like and select a move for it.

To me that seems a fair punishment and keeps the game going without slowing it down too much.

You deny any surprise factor to be had from maneuvers if your opponent gets to look at them first. Maybe that was the optimal maneuver and your opponent was not aware it was.

He sees it, gets the benefit of knowing about it, and then you either have to stick with the optimal maneuver, or change it to something sh*tty.

Looking at one ship's dial also gives clues to what the rest of your opponent's ships are doing, in case of formation flying or Attanni Mindlink. Or there could be a situation where a ship's dial is improperly revealed to be a 3 hard turn into an area in front of another ship friendly to it, which would imply that the other ship will avoid bumping into it.

If a Mindlink list is stressed, and you see a white maneuver on one of the dials, 90% of the time another ship in the list is doing a green to feed the other a focus while it keeps its stress token.

What if the victim's ship is already in the ideal board position and allowing him to move it wouldn't benefit him? If a turret player looks at an enemy dial improperly, does it really matter if his opponent gets to place his ship behind his Fat Han? Not every ship has Autothrusters or Outmaneuver.

9 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

You deny any surprise factor to be had from maneuvers if your opponent gets to look at them first. Maybe that was the optimal maneuver and your opponent was not aware it was.

He sees it, gets the benefit of knowing about it, and then you either have to stick with the optimal maneuver, or change it to something sh*tty.

Looking at one ship's dial also gives clues to what the rest of your opponent's ships are doing, in case of formation flying. Or there could be a situation where a ship's dial is improperly revealed to be a 3 hard turn into an area in front of another ship friendly to it, which would imply that the other ship will avoid bumping into it.

Hah, I think you missed my post about the individual (victim) can place their ship whose dial got looked at ANYWHERE in the play area AFTER the offending player has finished planning their maneuvers. Actually, scratch that, make it so any dials that haven't been placed by the offending player do not get placed and the ship performs a 2 straight white maneuver during it's activation, now anything that activates off of revealing a dial doesn't. THAN the victim can readjust their dials if they choose and can place the ship whose dial got looked at anywhere they want on the table if they want, and select a new maneuver for it.

9 minutes ago, NH Gunsmith said:

Hah, I think you missed my post about the individual (victim) can place their ship whose dial got looked at ANYWHERE in the play area AFTER the offending player has finished planning their maneuvers. Actually, scratch that, make it so any dials that haven't been placed by the offending player do not get placed and the ship performs a 2 straight white maneuver during it's activation, now anything that activates off of revealing a dial doesn't. THAN the victim can readjust their dials if they choose and can place the ship whose dial got looked at anywhere they want on the table if they want, and select a new maneuver for it.

I realized that I missed it, but didn't edit my post quickly enough to address it.

I have a bad habit of posting incomplete responses, and then adding things to them immediately after. My smartphone browser also wipes out text I type in if I refresh the page or hit the back button. If I swipe the screen too hard or hit the back or refresh touch screen zones it deletes everything. It's a way of saving my work in addition to completing incomplete responses.