2 hours ago, Helias de Nappo said:

I would hope, though, that if an established penalty were in place for this infraction, be it game loss or something else, you would, if traveling &c., take the precautions to ensure that no accidents took place.

Which, as I have pointed out before, can also be applied to the original problem, removing the need for a standardized rule concerning dial peaking.

14 hours ago, Verlaine said:

I don't believe the behaviour with regards to intentional draws is indicative of anything in this case, i.e. picking up the wrong dial.

If some sort of yellow card was codified in the rules it would be. Same as Intentional Draws. Before ID's, you could still intentionally draw you would just have to spend the whole game doing it.

14 hours ago, Ebak said:

If you flip a dial that is not yours, then you are breaking a game rule as determined by page 6 of the X-Wing FAQ:

"Hidden information is any information about the game, game state, or ships unavailable to one or more players. This includes facedown damage cards, facedown maneuver dials, cards within the damage deck, etc. A player cannot learn hidden information without the aid of a game effect, rule, or another player verbally communicating the information."

If this is the case, whether intentional or not you receive a warning since you are breaking the game state and gaining hidden information. I might say "this is your punishment" but that does not mean it will always be that punishment and as a judge I am within my bounds to issue a ruling for that situation, it does not set a precedent for all future instances of that situation and if I am called over again then I would rule much harshly against you for a repeated infraction.

There is nothing in the tournament regulations that state that a judge's ruling creates a precedent for that scenario merely issues a ruling for that specific instance.

If I had recalled you doing this at a previous tournament...or had been informed of your 'reputation' the punishment might even be harsher given that you are abusing the rules. This is in violation of page 3 of the X-Wing tournament regulations:

"Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner and to play within the rules and not abuse them. This prohibits intentionally stalling a game for time, placing components with excessive force, inappropriate behaviour, treating an opponent with a lack of courtesy or respect, cheating, etc. Collusion among players to manipulate scoring is expressly forbidden."

Page 5 of the X-Wing Tournament Regulations: "It is all players’ responsibility to maintain a proper game state, and to ensure that all mandatory abilities and game steps are acknowledged." - I accept this is part of the 'missed opportunities' part of the regulations, but I believe it is applicable to the situation. You as a player have failed to maintain a proper game state through gaining hidden information.

I think someone like yourself would very quickly be identified within the community and earn a reputation as a person who abuses the rules to gain an advantage. AKA: Cheating. Rules exist to guide you on how to play the game, you don't manipulate the rules to your advantage.

If you want to prove this is a problem, put your money where your mouth: Go to 5 events at 3 different stores (15 total) and do what you say once per tournament. See if people eventually pick up on it. If they don't, THEN you have an argument. Until we get empirical proof this is an issue, it frankly does not exist.

I'm not going to do that because there is a good chance the judge will actually be sane and give me the punishment that I would actually deserve.

You have to understand, I'm astounded by how ridiculous this thread has gotten. The idea that you wouldn't be punished for (holds megaphone up to mouth) >looking at someone's dial< is still genuinely surprising to me.

Also, I don't often travel very far for X-Wing. Local players would know what I'm doing because they know I'm the one that started this thread.

That policy of "everybody gets one. I'm watching you" only works locally. If one traveled out of state, you could get away with it.

Like I've said before, this gets easier to abuse the bigger and more prestigious the event is. The more important a game is, the easier it is to cheat in this manner. To the point where you can do it against Paul Heaver late in the event and get away with it.

My arguments come from the assumption that you would or should get a severe penalty for violating the game's rules in this manner. I'm using these arguments to show how exploitable certain proposed punishments would be, not that they'd seriously work currently.

2 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Like I've said before, this gets easier to abuse the bigger and more prestigious the event is. The more important a game is, the easier it is to cheat in this manner. To the point where you can do it against Paul Heaver late in the event and get away with it.

My arguments come from the assumption that you would or should get a severe penalty for violating the game's rules in this manner. I'm using these arguments to show how exploitable certain proposed punishments would be, not that they'd seriously work currently.

But you still haven't proved it is happening. According to you, this kind of cheating is super easy to do and has no drawbacks. If that were true, we should be seeing it everywhere, and a lot earlier than this, but we don't. Where is the evidence that this is easier to do at upper level games? Link me to the story where Paul Heaver or another top level player peaked at a dial. I have asked for this kind of data several times, and yet those posts go unanswered for some reason.

1 hour ago, Turbo Toker said:

I'm not going to do that because there is a good chance the judge will actually be sane and give me the punishment that I would actually deserve.

...and just like that, you fatally undercut your own argument by indicating that a judge using their discretion is likely to do the right thing, and that this discretionary power alone is enough to deter you from cheating--something you have claimed multiple times to be willing to do, if you thought you could get away without serious punishment. In other words, the current system satisfactorily solves the perceived problem, which is the apparent majority opinion here.

You aren't the only one who finds this thread ridiculous.

1 hour ago, Turbo Toker said:

Like I've said before, this gets easier to abuse the bigger and more prestigious the event is. The more important a game is, the easier it is to cheat in this manner. To the point where you can do it against Paul Heaver late in the event and get away with it.

My arguments come from the assumption that you would or should get a severe penalty for violating the game's rules in this manner. I'm using these arguments to show how exploitable certain proposed punishments would be, not that they'd seriously work currently.

So it is easier to do at a top table being live streamed from a huge event as opposed to at a local tournament? I dont even know what to say to that logic.

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

But you still haven't proved it is happening.....I have asked for this kind of data several times, and yet those posts go unanswered for some reason.

Don't even worry about his facts he hasn't provided SabineKey. He avoids answering things when they directly contradict him with facts. I doubt he can produce any facts backing his claims up himself.

5 hours ago, SabineKey said:

As for the people have have said they have accidentally flipped an opponent's dial, I would like to point out the "accidentally" part. It has already been established that the majority of people who have posted here believe accidentally flipping a dial doesn't need a standard penalty, and should left to the players and judge to sort out.

Now for the part both you and Turbo seem to be avoiding. The evidence of intentional cheating part.

Not avoiding it at all. What I've said is that it doesn't matter whether it's intentional or not.

For someone that finds nothing fun about this game (Turbo Toker) he argues for rules that would make it less fun to play.

If there's nothing you like about the game, quit playing it.

2 hours ago, fiesta0618 said:

...and just like that, you fatally undercut your own argument by indicating that a judge using their discretion is likely to do the right thing, and that this discretionary power alone is enough to deter you from cheating--something you have claimed multiple times to be willing to do, if you thought you could get away without serious punishment. In other words, the current system satisfactorily solves the perceived problem, which is the apparent majority opinion here.

You aren't the only one who finds this thread ridiculous.

So the right thing to do would be to give someone who picks up an opponent's dial and looks at it a game loss?

32 minutes ago, Helias de Nappo said:

Not avoiding it at all. What I've said is that it doesn't matter whether it's intentional or not.

And I (and others) have said that it does. Intent is critical. Intent is what gives actions context, and context is king. If you cannot accept that, that is your choice.

However, your opinion on intent does not alter the fact that you and Turbo have provided no evidence to prove your proposal is necessary. The commenters who have admitted to accidental dial peaking also said the infraction was handled between the players (as I remember them) and play resumed. There was no need for a special rule. The one who did the deed owned up and apparently a satisfactory recompense was reached. With examples of accidental peaking working out so amicably, the only need for standardized punishment is for those who refuse to work with the opposing player. But even then, the judge has the authority and freedom to do what they see fit, including pronouncing a game loss. And that's on top of the lack of evidence of dial peaking being a wide spread problem. Once again, it seems the benefit a standardize rule gives does not outweigh what is already in place, or the cost of putting it in place and the gameplay repercussions.

Once again, I urge you to submit actual evidence that this is happening on a large enough scale to be a problem. Until your points are supported by data, they hold the same veracity as statements like "the sky is green".

52 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

So the right thing to do would be to give someone who picks up an opponent's dial and looks at it a game loss?

Maybe. Depends on the circumstances. That's what "discretion" means. Game loss is certainly on the table; and the fact that it is on the table is what is stopping you and your ilk from cheating. Since the deterrent is already working, with no additional measures needed--problem solved! Your rule proposal is unnecessary.

In fact, for folks who like to stretch the letter of the law in defiance of the spirit, the scope of potential punishment often goes even further: total banishment from the FLGS. However, most folks believe in sportsmanship and practice it as well as they can, and so do not merit such a draconian response to an honest mistake. Thus, the harshest punishment is not typically applied.

Context matters.

10 minutes ago, fiesta0618 said:

Maybe. Depends on the circumstances. That's what "discretion" means. Game loss is certainly on the table; and the fact that it is on the table is what is stopping you and your ilk from cheating. Since the deterrent is already working, with no additional measures needed--problem solved! Your rule proposal is unnecessary.

In fact, for folks who like to stretch the letter of the law in defiance of the spirit, the scope of potential punishment often goes even further: total banishment from the FLGS. However, most folks believe in sportsmanship and practice it as well as they can, and so do not merit such a draconian response to an honest mistake. Thus, the harshest punishment is not typically applied.

Context matters.

And how would one prove that it was intentional?

This thread is absolutely ridiculous. How did you guys get 17 pages deep into this stupid topic. Auto loss for accidentally looking at someone else's dial is RETARDED. If you are that worried about it that you need to defend yourself against MULTIPLE people then stop playing this game competitively. This has gotten way out of hand.

As is tradition of long threads that should have stopped along time ago, we will now begin discussing, breakfast.

A bit of an odd one out, but I have found Subway's Steak-egg-cheese flat bread sandwich to taste rather well for a breakfast food, and putting green peppers + it being on flat bread means it's automatically more healthy than bacon right? no? okay, well it still taste good anyway. Anyone else tried any sort of off the wall breakfast items lately?

Not off the wall, but bacon is seriously OP.

My question is: Why aren't you putting bacon on it already?

On 4/30/2017 at 0:44 AM, Stoneface said:

If this keeps going, it might surpass the Gunboat thread.

Not sure if that'd be for the best or not...

What if you asked them to choose for you .. bacon or green peppers, but hide it under the flatbread ... if you open the sandwich before trying it, do you have to give it away?

23 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

As is tradition of long threads that should have stopped along time ago, we will now begin discussing, breakfast.

A bit of an odd one out, but I have found Subway's Steak-egg-cheese flat bread sandwich to taste rather well for a breakfast food, and putting green peppers + it being on flat bread means it's automatically more healthy than bacon right? no? okay, well it still taste good anyway. Anyone else tried any sort of off the wall breakfast items lately?

If you don't mind it not being healthy, you could have it with extra bacon, but with steak, egg, and bacon I think I'd start to feel my arteries clog up.
Personally, I've been rather enjoying the new paninis, and apart from the meatball and tuna, I haven't found a single sub I wouldn't prefer as a panini (and as an employee who has to clean the grill after use, the only thing deterring me from wanting the meatball and tuna are the mess I'd have to clean up). The green peppers and onions in particular are excellent if you grill them for longer.

3 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

As is tradition of long threads that should have stopped along time ago, we will now begin discussing, breakfast.

A bit of an odd one out, but I have found Subway's Steak-egg-cheese flat bread sandwich to taste rather well for a breakfast food, and putting green peppers + it being on flat bread means it's automatically more healthy than bacon right? no? okay, well it still taste good anyway. Anyone else tried any sort of off the wall breakfast items lately?

When it comes to breakfast, I generally prefer things that are round and made of bread, with a slice or two of bacon if available.

Don't care what anyone says. Best breakfast you can have is a full English. Bacon, fried egg, grilled tomato and of course mushrooms with beans and sausages. Nothing gets me more prepared to face an X-Wing tournament than a full English, although I admittedly tell them to hold the beans.

4 minutes ago, Ebak said:

Don't care what anyone says. Best breakfast you can have is a full English. Bacon, fried egg, grilled tomato and of course mushrooms with beans and sausages. Nothing gets me more prepared to face an X-Wing tournament than a full English, although I admittedly tell them to hold the beans.

That kind of fanatical and non-compromising attitude is what made this thread 17 pages long in the first place.

What if I pick up your breakfast and eat it, though?

Is it wrong of me to judge you for eating Subway breakfast? At least have some dignity and get a McMuffin.

2 minutes ago, AlexW said:

What if I pick up your breakfast and eat it, though?

Nono, this is more akin to opening up their bag and peeking at what they brought for breakfast before they reveal it to you