6 hours ago, Helias de Nappo said:

But we're specifically talking about tournament play. Some folks travel long distances and incur considerable expenses to play in tournaments,

I think that can also be an argument for NOT having this rule. I spend a considerable amount for a hotel room, airplane ticket, entry fee, food at said location, only to make a mistake round 1 and be cast out. For me that would be hundreds of pounds wasted for me and no bugger could ever convince me that the call was justified 'cuz you coulda been cheating bro'.

I plan on attending the Yavin open next year and that's going to be a lot of money for me to spend if I could be thrown out for a mistake. Granted I might not make that mistake, but all this thread is talking about is could haves and maybes. There is no evidence of precedent for this being a problem.

I stand by my assertion that this is making a mountain out of a molehill and the rule is not needed.

In a single Match I could see this happening once, and the affected player gets to off shot that because mistakes happen. Twice or three times, then that starts to sound fishy in my opinion especially in a tournament setting and an official should Discuss with the offending player not to, or even a DQ if player keeps it up.

I tend to keep mine by my ship cards, so if my Opponent reaches all the way over to look at mine, then that I would cry foul.... (I am unaware of any upgrade that would do that...)

12 hours ago, jake1976 said:

Twice or three times, then that starts to sound fishy in my opinion especially in a tournament setting and an official should Discuss with the offending player not to, or even a DQ if player keeps it up.

Which is exactly why this is such a bad idea... Because there's no need for it. A Judge can already give someone a game loss if they think it's called for. The way it is now, it's up to a Judge to decide what the best call is, it's called discretion, a concept that is apparently foreign to some people.

So there is no need for a codified rule that covers this or most any situation because the Judge should be someone who can deal with the situation as needed.

Quote

(I am unaware of any upgrade that would do that...)

Intelligence Agent lets you view someone's dial. The fact that some people don't even know about it, and next to no one uses it shows just how far off base the OP really is. I was part of a custom rule tournament, where every list has to have one in it, then the winner was the guy who killed the ship with the Intel Agent on it first. I think the crew was used maybe two or three times the whole tournament, and honestly the once or twice I used it, it was really no help.

On ‎4‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 4:54 PM, Ebak said:

I think that can also be an argument for NOT having this rule. I spend a considerable amount for a hotel room, airplane ticket, entry fee, food at said location, only to make a mistake round 1 and be cast out. For me that would be hundreds of pounds wasted for me and no bugger could ever convince me that the call was justified 'cuz you coulda been cheating bro'.

I plan on attending the Yavin open next year and that's going to be a lot of money for me to spend if I could be thrown out for a mistake. Granted I might not make that mistake, but all this thread is talking about is could haves and maybes. There is no evidence of precedent for this being a problem.

I stand by my assertion that this is making a mountain out of a molehill and the rule is not needed.

You would get a game loss. It would be no different than if you accidentally set a ship up backwards or flew off the board. Those are mistakes that can lose you a game. You're at a regional, git gud and double check.

I assert that no one does it because they assume there would be a severe punishment for such a severe rules violation. If a Worlds judge told me that the punishment for looking at a dial was that my opponent would get to look at one of mine and change it, I'd do it again the next turn, immediately. That's not cheating, that's just following rules. No different than assigning a straight to a ship that has the no straights crit, or doing a red maneuver while stressed.

Look at what happened with Majorjuggler and stopwing. If you forget to set a dial, your ship doesn't move was the ruling. Lol whoops I forgot all of my TIE Fighter dials aw shucks guess I'm not moving.

10 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

You would get a game loss. It would be no different than if you accidentally set a ship up backwards or flew off the board. Those are mistakes that can lose you a game. You're at a regional, git gud and double check.

I assert that no one does it because they assume there would be a severe punishment for such a severe rules violation. If a Worlds judge told me that the punishment for looking at a dial was that my opponent would get to look at one of mine and change it, I'd do it again the next turn, immediately. That's not cheating, that's just following rules. No different than assigning a straight to a ship that has the no straights crit, or doing a red maneuver while stressed.

Look at what happened with Majorjuggler and stopwing. If you forget to set a dial, your ship doesn't move was the ruling. Lol whoops I forgot all of my TIE Fighter dials aw shucks guess I'm not moving.

Turbo, there's a difference in what you're saying here and accidentally picking up a dial.

1. You can still play after putting a ship on the table backwards. You don't get kicked out of the game, and you still have a chance of winning. A small one, but a chance.

2. If you picked up a dial twice in a row, or just twice in a game, it will be all too clear what you're doing and you will be given a game lose.

3. Same goes for just not setting all your dials. Your opponent and the judge will know what you're doing the moment that happens. One is an accident, and something a new play may do. All your dials? Not happening! You're going to be caught.

My point is, the situations you just suggested are so blatant that no one would miss it, and it would be hard to find anyone to play with after that.

16 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

I assert that no one does it because they assume there would be a severe punishment for such a severe rules violation.

You keep saying this and I keep asking for evidence that anyone besides you assumed the same. And either way, the situation at worlds was (presumably) an accident, not intentional. Intentional rule breaking can have different consequences ghan

19 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

If a Worlds judge told me that the punishment for looking at a dial was that my opponent would get to look at one of mine and change it, I'd do it again the next turn, immediately. That's not cheating, that's just following rules.

That IS cheating. Breaking the rules is still cheating regardless of the punishment. And if you're doing it multiple times, I can almost guarantee the judge will escalate the punishment.

19 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

No different than assigning a straight to a ship that has the no straights crit, or doing a red maneuver while stressed.

The first also lets your opponent set your dial. The second did as well until they added ways it could be fairly easily exploited by stressing someone's ship after they set their dial.

19 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Look at what happened with Majorjuggler and stopwing. If you forget to set a dial, your ship doesn't move was the ruling. Lol whoops I forgot all of my TIE Fighter dials aw shucks guess I'm not moving.

That was simply a judge making a bad call. Moving your ships isn't an"missed opportunity". It's not an optional effect that you forgot, it's a required part of the game.

5 minutes ago, sf1raptor said:

3. Same goes for just not setting all your dials. Your opponent and the judge will know what you're doing the moment that happens. One is an accident, and something a new play may do. All your dials? Not happening! You're going to be caught.

My point is, the situations you just suggested are so blatant that no one would miss it, and it would be hard to find anyone to play with after that.

Also not setting your dials at all just means the opponent gets to pick what all of your ships do

Is there any record of a post day 1 player feeling that someone has intentionally cheated this way or that they've gamed a penalty as an exploit to win?

because until that happens, and truthfully it's an issue, I see no point in making some rule against hypothetical cheating

i define cheating as intentional breaking of rules to seek an advantage. Because if you just say it's not following the rules, then we're almost all "cheaters" and that's silly

1 hour ago, VanderLegion said:

Also not setting your dials at all just means the opponent gets to pick what all of your ships do

That's correct. What happened was that an opponent was a WAAC player, and MJ revealed a bunch of dials simultaneously and moved all his ships simultaneously. The WAAC guy denied MJ all of his actions even though he stated that they were all focusing or whatnot, and Majorjuggler pointed out how ridiculous that was and told the judge, "If that was true, none of my ships could maneuver either!".

So the judge actually prevented his ships from moving, and then later on in the game it happened to his opponent.

#majorjuggler, @majorjuggler

How do I do that blue text username mention thing?

1 hour ago, Turbo Toker said:

That's correct. What happened was that an opponent was a WAAC player, and MJ revealed a bunch of dials simultaneously and moved all his ships simultaneously. The WAAC guy denied MJ all of his actions even though he stated that they were all focusing or whatnot, and Majorjuggler pointed out how ridiculous that was and told the judge, "If that was true, none of my ships could maneuver either!".

So the judge actually prevented his ships from moving, and then later on in the game it happened to his opponent.

#majorjuggler, @majorjuggler

How do I do that blue text username mention thing?

I remember exactly what happened. Doesn't change that it was a bad judge call and NOT what should happen if you flip all of your dials at once. Worst case you lose actions like his opponent was trying to get.

2 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I remember exactly what happened. Doesn't change that it was a bad judge call and NOT what should happen if you flip all of your dials at once. Worst case you lose actions like his opponent was trying to get.

The point being that if a judge makes a bad call, you can't blame someone for exploiting it later. It's the judges fault for creating bad rules or interpreting rules poorly, it's not the fault of a player for following those rules.

So if I was at worlds, and a judge or Frank told me that all that happens is that an opponent gets to change one of your dials in response, I'd do it the next turn that would benefit me.

It would be no different than revealing a red while already stressed.

This is my point, that everyone expects judges to be perfect arbiters of intent and coming up with good rules based on the situation at hand, when even worlds judges and Frank's rulings are poorly thought out and blatantly exploitable.

13 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

The point being that if a judge makes a bad call, you can't blame someone for exploiting it later. It's the judges fault for creating bad rules or interpreting rules poorly, it's not the fault of a player for following those rules.

So if I was at worlds, and a judge or Frank told me that all that happens is that an opponent gets to change one of your dials in response, I'd do it the next turn that would benefit me.

It would be no different than revealing a red while already stressed.

This is my point, that everyone expects judges to be perfect arbiters of intent and coming up with good rules based on the situation at hand, when even worlds judges and Frank's rulings are poorly thought out and blatantly exploitable.

Presumably that was the consequences they decided on for a single accidental dial peek. Not doing it intentional or repeatedly. Revealing a red while stressed isn't doing anything illegal anymore, it's just something with a given effect (that only affects the ship itself, nothing of your opponents).

We we also disagree about how "exploitable" it is

6 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

The point being that if a judge makes a bad call, you can't blame someone for exploiting it later. It's the judges fault for creating bad rules or interpreting rules poorly, it's not the fault of a player for following those rules.

So if I was at worlds, and a judge or Frank told me that all that happens is that an opponent gets to change one of your dials in response, I'd do it the next turn that would benefit me.

It would be no different than revealing a red while already stressed.

This is my point, that everyone expects judges to be perfect arbiters of intent and coming up with good rules based on the situation at hand, when even worlds judges and Frank's rulings are poorly thought out and blatantly exploitable.

I still want to see an example of where trading dial information, And on top of that letting your opponent pick your move for one of your ships, benefits you. Because even in a dire situation, You looking at my dial gives me room to send one of your ships careening into the flight path of the others, or even off the board in certain situations. Or smack into a rock/debris, and set up a shot I otherwise might not have gotten. And lets not forget post movement actions, Barrel roll, boost, Slam. You seeing my dial does not benefit you except if you look at it before all dials are down, after the TO is called over and I change one of your dials, I'm going to ****** it up and change it before we begin activation phase because we haven't started yet. And if you look at it after it's already started, I'm just going to ruin one of your pilots days in return, and besides your post movement actions, there is little you can do in response. Post movement actions are big yes, but when I change your range 1 shot with the Defender into a K turn so your now in my range 1, or send Dengar off in a red turn into the asteroid, Or break your formation so Biggs useless for a round, where did you benefit?

If this keeps going, it might surpass the Gunboat thread.

9 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

The point being that if a judge makes a bad call, you can't blame someone for exploiting it later. It's the judges fault for creating bad rules or interpreting rules poorly, it's not the fault of a player for following those rules.

So if I was at worlds, and a judge or Frank told me that all that happens is that an opponent gets to change one of your dials in response, I'd do it the next turn that would benefit me.

It would be no different than revealing a red while already stressed.

This is my point, that everyone expects judges to be perfect arbiters of intent and coming up with good rules based on the situation at hand, when even worlds judges and Frank's rulings are poorly thought out and blatantly exploitable.

Having judged a good number of tournaments, what your saying is malarky. Judgments don't create a precedent like in courts. Just cause that happened to MJ at one event doesn't mean its like that at all events forever. You have given a couple of examples now that if you were playing in a tournament and you knew the punishment would be that your opponent gets to change one of your dials you would repeat the behavior. Once is a mistake, twice ,especially in the same game, starts to show a pattern and then Id judge for a game loss for you.

One accidental wrong dial and your out is way too draconian. Hell, by your logic if someone forgets to put down shield tokens at setup they shouldn't be allowed to have them per the, iirc, Mexican Nationals "Missed Opportunity" ruling.

20 minutes ago, CJKeys said:

Having judged a good number of tournaments, what your saying is malarky. Judgments don't create a precedent like in courts. Just cause that happened to MJ at one event doesn't mean its like that at all events forever. You have given a couple of examples now that if you were playing in a tournament and you knew the punishment would be that your opponent gets to change one of your dials you would repeat the behavior. Once is a mistake, twice ,especially in the same game, starts to show a pattern and then Id judge for a game loss for you.

One accidental wrong dial and your out is way too draconian. Hell, by your logic if someone forgets to put down shield tokens at setup they shouldn't be allowed to have them per the, iirc, Mexican Nationals "Missed Opportunity" ruling.

1. Based on what? Tell someone the punishment for something, and then when they simply determine that the benefits outweigh the costs, you escalate to a game loss out of nowhere? You just told them the punishment for their actions.

2. Placing shield tokens is not optional and by the time you figure out that they were missed, you would have full shields still.

3. Just do it intentionally then. No judges will actually punish you for it, at least the first time. Phone a Friend.

9 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

So if I was at worlds, and a judge or Frank told me that all that happens is that an opponent gets to change one of your dials in response, I'd do it the next turn that would benefit me.

In football, some players are willing to take a yellow card if their action prevent the opponent from scoring or reaching a position where they would have probably scored. I don't see that mentality in X-Wing tournaments. My impression is that generally players stick to the rules because they want to play the game like that, they don't stick to the rules because of some cost/benefit analysis of what the gain and punishment for a specific infraction would be.

And it should be noted that in football, the yellow card still exists, in spite of the fact that it can be 'exploited'.

10 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

1. Based on what? Tell someone the punishment for something, and then when they simply determine that the benefits outweigh the costs, you escalate to a game loss out of nowhere? You just told them the punishment for their actions.

2. Placing shield tokens is not optional and by the time you figure out that they were missed, you would have full shields still.

3. Just do it intentionally then. No judges will actually punish you for it, at least the first time. Phone a Friend.

1: Based on a repeated, and obviously non accidental behavior i violation of the Unsporting Conduct Rule, Pg 3, Par8 of the rules document (quoted below for reference). Consider the first violation a Yellow Card and the second your Red Card. Just so you know I am usually the Organizer as well as the Judge.

2: The judge at the Mexican nationals ruled otherwise last year IIRC. Since you seem to treat judgements like court precedents then by your logic it has been ruled on before this way so must be this way after.

3: Im sure if i see you doing it repeatedly game to game or tournament or tournament im gonna know it is a pattern and treat it as such.

Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner and to
play within the rules and not abuse them. This prohibits intentionally stalling
a game for time, placing components with excessive force, inappropriate
behavior, treating an opponent with a lack of courtesy or respect, cheating,
etc. Collusion among players to manipulate scoring is expressly forbidden.
The organizer, at his or her sole discretion, may remove players from the
tournament for unsportsmanlike conduct.

28 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

1. Based on what? Tell someone the punishment for something, and then when they simply determine that the benefits outweigh the costs, you escalate to a game loss out of nowhere? You just told them the punishment for their actions.

2. Placing shield tokens is not optional and by the time you figure out that they were missed, you would have full shields still.

3. Just do it intentionally then. No judges will actually punish you for it, at least the first time. Phone a Friend.

If you flip a dial that is not yours, then you are breaking a game rule as determined by page 6 of the X-Wing FAQ:

"Hidden information is any information about the game, game state, or ships unavailable to one or more players. This includes facedown damage cards, facedown maneuver dials, cards within the damage deck, etc. A player cannot learn hidden information without the aid of a game effect, rule, or another player verbally communicating the information."

If this is the case, whether intentional or not you receive a warning since you are breaking the game state and gaining hidden information. I might say "this is your punishment" but that does not mean it will always be that punishment and as a judge I am within my bounds to issue a ruling for that situation, it does not set a precedent for all future instances of that situation and if I am called over again then I would rule much harshly against you for a repeated infraction.

There is nothing in the tournament regulations that state that a judge's ruling creates a precedent for that scenario merely issues a ruling for that specific instance.

If I had recalled you doing this at a previous tournament...or had been informed of your 'reputation' the punishment might even be harsher given that you are abusing the rules. This is in violation of page 3 of the X-Wing tournament regulations:

"Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner and to play within the rules and not abuse them. This prohibits intentionally stalling a game for time, placing components with excessive force, inappropriate behaviour, treating an opponent with a lack of courtesy or respect, cheating, etc. Collusion among players to manipulate scoring is expressly forbidden."

Page 5 of the X-Wing Tournament Regulations: "It is all players’ responsibility to maintain a proper game state, and to ensure that all mandatory abilities and game steps are acknowledged." - I accept this is part of the 'missed opportunities' part of the regulations, but I believe it is applicable to the situation. You as a player have failed to maintain a proper game state through gaining hidden information.

I think someone like yourself would very quickly be identified within the community and earn a reputation as a person who abuses the rules to gain an advantage. AKA: Cheating. Rules exist to guide you on how to play the game, you don't manipulate the rules to your advantage.

If you want to prove this is a problem, put your money where your mouth: Go to 5 events at 3 different stores (15 total) and do what you say once per tournament. See if people eventually pick up on it. If they don't, THEN you have an argument. Until we get empirical proof this is an issue, it frankly does not exist.

13 minutes ago, Verlaine said:

In football, some players are willing to take a yellow card if their action prevent the opponent from scoring or reaching a position where they would have probably scored. I don't see that mentality in X-Wing tournaments. My impression is that generally players stick to the rules because they want to play the game like that, they don't stick to the rules because of some cost/benefit analysis of what the gain and punishment for a specific infraction would be.

And it should be noted that in football, the yellow card still exists, in spite of the fact that it can be 'exploited'.

Yes and no. A significant portion of the player base would get angry about it and refuse to do it and think it destroys the game and hate the players that do it, and a significant portion would do it even if they themselves think it's wrong. See: Intentional Draws.

I'm not okay with that sort of shenanigans in the game, even for just once an event. It would simply be beneficial to save it for a crucial turn against a good player and use it then, as if it was Rollerball.

2 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Yes and no. A significant portion of the player base would get angry about it and refuse to do it and think it destroys the game and hate the players that do it, and a significant portion would do it even if they themselves think it's wrong. See: Intentional Draws.

I'm not okay with that sort of shenanigans in the game, even for just once an event. It would simply be beneficial to save it for a crucial turn against a good player and use it then, as if it was Rollerball.

I don't believe the behaviour with regards to intentional draws is indicative of anything in this case, i.e. picking up the wrong dial.

On 4/27/2017 at 1:34 PM, SabineKey said:

That still doesn't answer the question of why we need the rule now when we haven't needed it before. Again, the game is 5 years old, and this loophole was there from the beginning.

It's legitimate to question whether this happens often enough to warrant there being an established penalty for it. There obviously aren't records kept of the number of (intentional or unintentional) dial 'peeks' that occur, but I would say that the number of folks who've commented in this very thread that they've done it, often multiple times, shows that it happens quite often.

My only question is, are these jackass dial-flippers only registered to flip dials, or are they dial-flipping in person?

On 4/27/2017 at 4:54 PM, Ebak said:

I think that can also be an argument for NOT having this rule. I spend a considerable amount for a hotel room, airplane ticket, entry fee, food at said location, only to make a mistake round 1 and be cast out. For me that would be hundreds of pounds wasted for me and no bugger could ever convince me that the call was justified 'cuz you coulda been cheating bro'.

I plan on attending the Yavin open next year and that's going to be a lot of money for me to spend if I could be thrown out for a mistake. Granted I might not make that mistake, but all this thread is talking about is could haves and maybes. There is no evidence of precedent for this being a problem.

I stand by my assertion that this is making a mountain out of a molehill and the rule is not needed.

I would hope, though, that if an established penalty were in place for this infraction, be it game loss or something else, you would, if traveling &c., take the precautions to ensure that no accidents took place.

1 hour ago, Helias de Nappo said:

It's legitimate to question whether this happens often enough to warrant there being an established penalty for it. There obviously aren't records kept of the number of (intentional or unintentional) dial 'peeks' that occur, but I would say that the number of folks who've commented in this very thread that they've done it, often multiple times, shows that it happens quite often.

So what you are saying is that there are no records of dial peaking, which rather indicates to me that it isn't wide spread enough to illicit close attention. If there are a lot of cases of cheating, people take note, publicize it, and generally give it some catchy name. That hasn't happened in this situation.

As for the people have have said they have accidentally flipped an opponent's dial, I would like to point out the "accidentally" part. It has already been established that the majority of people who have posted here believe accidentally flipping a dial doesn't need a standard penalty, and should left to the players and judge to sort out.

Now for the part both you and Turbo seem to be avoiding. The evidence of intentional cheating part. Y'all still haven't as much as given one real life case of this happening. You haven't even told a personal story of how accidental dial peaking decided a game. Where as, I have a ton of casual games, quite a number of tournaments, some special events, and a few regionals of experience that says that dial peaking, intentional or otherwise, is not a wide spread thing. Why should a standard rule be considered, much less the extreme choice Turbo put forth, when its supporters don't have actual evidence that the intentional cheating is actually happening? If this form of cheating is so easy, why aren't we neck deep in it? (Note: Don't use the "people just assumed a harsh penalty was in place" defense. I don't buy that for a second.)