22 minutes ago, BlueSquadronPilot said:

I don't know if it has been mentioned yet, I'd rather not go through double digit pages of this.... but what if you took a piece of sticky paper or tape, fastened it to the bottom of your dial and wrote your name on it? Simple, and really hard to miss. Just a thought

I don't blame you for not wanting to read this whole thing. It's surprisingly long, partly because there are so many personal attacks directed at the OP. But, yes, marking dials has been suggested. I think it's a great idea.

3 minutes ago, Helias de Nappo said:

I don't blame you for not wanting to read this whole thing. It's surprisingly long, partly because there are so many personal attacks directed at the OP. But, yes, marking dials has been suggested. I think it's a great idea.

Just be aware that on a standard dial, many of the ways to mark it can provide an observant opponent with knowledge of which maneuver you dialed in. (Not an issue with the plastic dial replacements.)

4 minutes ago, Helias de Nappo said:

I don't blame you for not wanting to read this whole thing. It's surprisingly long, partly because there are so many personal attacks directed at the OP. But, yes, marking dials has been suggested. I think it's a great idea.

You'd have to be careful when you mark them though. If you marked the back of a cardboard dial, you could figure out what maneuver it was on and then if you knew where the V shaped dial window was, you could figure out maneuver had been selected.

Plastic dial kits don't have this problem.

A small sticker on the plastic dial rivet would accomplish this same goal without marking anything.

45 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

You'd have to be careful when you mark them though. If you marked the back of a cardboard dial, you could figure out what maneuver it was on and then if you knew where the V shaped dial window was, you could figure out maneuver had been selected.

Plastic dial kits don't have this problem.

A small sticker on the plastic dial rivet would accomplish this same goal without marking anything.

That makes sense, geez. So many ways people could exploit! But a round sticker on the dial is a good idea!

Finally going to chime in again. I think the some issues you have with the automatic loss strategy are mirror matches, same faction matches, colorblindness, and exploitation.

Mirror matches and same faction matches are going to be using the same dials (I know you can sticker or paint it, but bare with me), so someone could place there dials in hard to tell areas and trick their opponent into picking it up. This would especially come up in fur balls.

Then you have colorblindness. I know someone mentioned that the Rebel and Scum dials look alike to someone who's colorblind, so it would be understandable that something like that could happen. I guess you could give a judge a color card to do a test, but it seems just a bit intrusive.

Then there's exploitation. What keeps someone from flying close, placing their there dials between their own ships and their opponent's and just hope he makes a mistake.

There are just too many ways you CAN exploit the instant loss.

I originally marked the sides of all my cardboard with a red Sharpie paint marker. I have since changed to acrylic and the dial upgrade kits (I need to paint them now) and it worked great.

3 hours ago, sf1raptor said:

Finally going to chime in again. I think the some issues you have with the automatic loss strategy are mirror matches, same faction matches, colorblindness, and exploitation.

Mirror matches and same faction matches are going to be using the same dials (I know you can sticker or paint it, but bare with me), so someone could place there dials in hard to tell areas and trick their opponent into picking it up. This would especially come up in fur balls.

Then you have colorblindness. I know someone mentioned that the Rebel and Scum dials look alike to someone who's colorblind, so it would be understandable that something like that could happen. I guess you could give a judge a color card to do a test, but it seems just a bit intrusive.

Then there's exploitation. What keeps someone from flying close, placing their there dials between their own ships and their opponent's and just hope he makes a mistake.

There are just too many ways you CAN exploit the instant loss.

This is a valid concern. Colorblind players or players that just want to be careful in general would be allowed to put dials on cards.

Players could also mark their dials.

Players could take an extra second before they pick up a dial.

There are easy precautions that could be taken to reduce or eliminate the possible exploitation of the instant loss.

20 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

This is a valid concern. Colorblind players or players that just want to be careful in general would be allowed to put dials on cards.

Players could also mark their dials.

Players could take an extra second before they pick up a dial.

There are easy precautions that could be taken to reduce or eliminate the possible exploitation of the instant loss.

For the last one, even taking an extra second before picking up your dial you can get the wrong one in the middle of a furball

21 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

This is a valid concern. Colorblind players or players that just want to be careful in general would be allowed to put dials on cards.

Players could also mark their dials.

Players could take an extra second before they pick up a dial.

There are easy precautions that could be taken to reduce or eliminate the possible exploitation of the instant loss.

Are you aware that all your suggestions can work as a deterrent against people from peaking, right? If you distinctly mark your dial, the "ops" defense becomes shaky. Watch your dials to prevent someone else from picking them up. Like you said, these are easy precautions that can be taken to reduce or eliminate the possible exploitation of dial peaking.

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

Watch your dials to prevent someone else from picking them up. Like you said, these are easy precautions that can be taken to reduce or eliminate the possible exploitation of dial peaking.

Why do that, when you can hope they pick them up and then agitate for their auto-loss?

13 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Why do that, when you can hope they pick them up and then agitate for their auto-loss?

That's my point. An auto loss is too exploitable. I liked... I can't remember who it was, but they suggested that the person who had their dial picked up could change the dial of an opponents ships. I can't remember if he was also allowed to change his, but this means that an important ship could be out of line, off the board, or even play blocker on its allies. Really, it's a fitting punishment, and eliminates the attractiveness of the cheat.

12 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Why do that, when you can hope they pick them up and then agitate for their auto-loss?

Considering dial peaking isn't a wide spread problem from everything I've seen and heard, the idea of making an even more attractive loophole to take advantage of would be a boon to the rather pitiful cheating community X-Wing has.

Cheet Gud, scrub.

2 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Are you aware that all your suggestions can work as a deterrent against people from peaking, right? If you distinctly mark your dial, the "ops" defense becomes shaky. Watch your dials to prevent someone else from picking them up. Like you said, these are easy precautions that can be taken to reduce or eliminate the possible exploitation of dial peaking.

Yes, so this means that when these precautions are taken you've either been extremely negligent, or you've intentionally picked up a dial. Minor negligence or trickery has been taken out of the equation.

And then you get a game loss!

We've gotten rid/minimized the risk of accidents and trickery. The only possible reason a dial could be flipped improperly would be intentional.

So we've solved the problem. Players get a game loss, and we've eliminated the risk of punishing people for accidents or rewarding trickery.

Just now, Turbo Toker said:

Yes, so this means that when these precautions are taken you've either been extremely negligent, or you've intentionally picked up a dial. Minor negligence or trickery has been taken out of the equation.

And then you get a game loss!

We've gotten rid/minimized the risk of accidents and trickery. The only possible reason a dial could be flipped improperly would be intentional.

So we've solved the problem. Players get a game loss, and we've eliminated the risk of punishing people for accidents or rewarding trickery.

Or, we apply that same logic to the problem you are trying to fix about people peaking at dials (which you still haven't proved is a big enough problem to warrant fixing) and totally do away with the need of having the extreme rule at all. Sorry I didn't make it clear that that was what I meant in that quote from me. With these guidelines you created, you have made your original suggestion obsolete.

3 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Considering dial peaking isn't a wide spread problem from everything I've seen and heard...

If that is true, OP's solution is looking for a problem.

39 minutes ago, Verlaine said:

If that is true, OP's solution is looking for a problem.

This is because people assumed they would be given a severe penalty and the thought of intentionally doing it never crossed their minds. Now we know that even Worlds Judges will not punish you for it.

3 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Or, we apply that same logic to the problem you are trying to fix about people peaking at dials (which you still haven't proved is a big enough problem to warrant fixing) and totally do away with the need of having the extreme rule at all. Sorry I didn't make it clear that that was what I meant in that quote from me. With these guidelines you created, you have made your original suggestion obsolete.

So when someone leans all the way across the table and looks at an opponent's dial that's sitting on his cards, they would get a game loss, right?

Yes or no?

21 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

This is because people assumed they would be given a severe penalty and the thought of intentionally doing it never crossed their minds. Now we know that even Worlds Judges will not punish you for it.

So it's still not prevalent or problematic?

34 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

This is because people assumed they would be given a severe penalty and the thought of intentionally doing it never crossed their minds. Now we know that even Worlds Judges will not punish you for it.

So when someone leans all the way across the table and looks at an opponent's dial that's sitting on his cards, they would get a game loss, right?

Yes or no?

Still waiting on evidence that the reason people didn't do it is because they assumed there'd be a severe penalty. Just because YOU thought it would result in a game loss doesn't mean other people made the same assumption.

I just don't get where all of this is coming from. It's yet another loooong thread about something that isn't even an issue in real life.

"Hey guys FFG needs to do something about the latest epidemic of cheaters who keep looking at their opponents' dials" said no one ever.

Can't wait for a 15 page thread about disqualification for players who move asteroids out of position and don't forget about the lifetime bans for people who knock down a ship while making their moves. I mean, they COULD be doing it on purpose, right? And cheating even once cannot be allowed, common sense be damned. Fly casual and all that...

6 hours ago, sf1raptor said:

That's my point. An auto loss is too exploitable. I liked... I can't remember who it was, but they suggested that the person who had their dial picked up could change the dial of an opponents ships. I can't remember if he was also allowed to change his, but this means that an important ship could be out of line, off the board, or even play blocker on its allies. Really, it's a fitting punishment, and eliminates the attractiveness of the cheat.

Yep.

I've addressed that idea numerous times.

You pick up their dial intentionally, and your opponent gets to change one of your dials. It was worth it because you got to see where an opponent's important ship was going.

Unless you mean all of offender's ships' dials can be changed by the victim, which would be severe enough to make it not worth it most of the time. But then you could just fly a fat ship like a Ghost or Falcon and do it. They have turrets so they'll always have shots and they won't always be near board edges or asteroids. Or they could be Dash. Or Miranda.

What you've done is created this Rollerball situation where the penalty for bashing someone's face in with a solid metal ball the size of your fist is a 3 minute penalty. Sometimes it's worth it. When you're up on ships or your opponent has a more valuable ship, it may be worth it to "tactically foul" one of their ships.

3 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

Yep.

I've addressed that idea numerous times.

You pick up their dial intentionally, and your opponent gets to change one of your dials. It was worth it because you got to see where an opponent's important ship was going.

Unless you mean all of offender's ships' dials can be changed by the victim, which would be severe enough to make it not worth it most of the time. But then you could just fly a fat ship like a Ghost or Falcon and do it. They have turrets so they'll always have shots and they won't always be near board edges or asteroids. Or they could be Dash. Or Miranda.

What you've done is created this Rollerball situation where the penalty for bashing someone's face in with a solid metal ball the size of your fist is a 3 minute penalty. Sometimes it's worth it. When you're up on ships or your opponent has a more valuable ship, it may be worth it to "tactically foul" one of their ships.

Just the one ship. If you get to change both the accused's dial and your own then you could set up a shot. I really don't see how it would be worth it at that point to cheat. Yes you just saw a dial, but now one of your ships is out of your control with the potential of being out of line to shoot.

It's all just so militant. I guess that's what personally turns me off.

Like, if I was up against someone who intentionally looked at my dial, trying to game the system, I would just literally feel sorry for that person and be happy for him to have his win.

Turbo, you're not wrong about the schematics of your suggestion - it would be a deterrent and in some cases it would be an appropriate penalty, but at the level where considerations like this exist, we're so far outside of the margins of the spirit of the game that there's really no longer any point to playing. Either one party needs the win so bad that they're willing to be a dirtbag, or the other party needs justice so bad they're willing to throw a newcomer who makes an honest mistake under the bus while saying, 'sorry bro, them's the rules'...

I pity both of them - and am just not interested in playing either one.

But that's me - and this is the internet, so... Peace!

7 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

This is because people assumed they would be given a severe penalty and the thought of intentionally doing it never crossed their minds.

Wrong, no one but you has ever assumed that, do don't pretend you get to speak for people. This thread is all the proof I need that no one else actually thought that.

Also your general attitude that the only reason people haven't done it is due to fear of punishment speaks volumes about you.

7 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

So when someone leans all the way across the table and looks at an opponent's dial that's sitting on his cards, they would get a game loss, right?

Yes or no?

Most likely, yes. Because it is _obvious_ cheating. No question about intent. No possibility of convicting an innocent player. The person in question has clearly violated the rules and codes of conduct of the game and should be punished. And he will, even without your draconian rule.

All your rule does is add more opportunity to victimize innocent players, because there is not enough people who actually try this to be actually worth it. If you can prove dial peaking is a wide spread problem or is becoming one, you might have a case. Until then, your cure is like amputation for a stubbed toe.