1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

Doesn't have to land you on a rock or fly you off the table edge to hurt you. Maybe you k-turn directly in front of their destination, so you're stressed with no actions and taking range 1 shots unable to return fire. maybe you only have one ship that has any repositioning to take advantage of knowing their destination and that ship gets flown off in the opposite direction where it doesn't help any. Theres any number of ways to screw over your opponent if you get to pick one of their dials.

And how bout suggestion some situations with actual competitive squads where it won't hurt you at all? Haven't seen an 8 tie swarm do well competitively in years. And my ghost couldn't care less if your 8 tie swarm sees my dial. You probably already know exactly what maneuver I'm doing, and my engine upgrade gives me some repositioning to deal with any barrel rolls you might do as a result of knowing what I'm doing. It's not like you're getting to change all of your dials to take advantage of knowing where I'm going. There's usually multiple possible good moves for a ship to take on a given turn. If you see their dial and they get to change it, they can either keep the one they had, or pick a different one. If they ONLY have 1 possible good maneuver, you already know what they're going to do, so seeing their dial doesn't give you any advantage.

If your argument is that hidden dial information doesn't matter that much, I don't know what to say to you.

How tenable is your position when you have to dismiss a core aspect of the game in order to defend it?

Just now, Turbo Toker said:

If your argument is that hidden dial information doesn't matter that much, I don't know what to say to you.

How tenable is your position when you have to dismiss a core aspect of the game in order to defend it?

I'm not saying hidden dial information doesn't matter much. I'm saying if you see it and they get to change it AND one of your dials, it's not helping you that much to cheat to see it. And pointing out that there ARE times where the "hidden" dial information DOESN"T matter that much because there's only one realistic move for a ship to take.

I'm not dismissing anything. I just disagree with your premise that seeing their dial is worth them changing one of yours.

If you check my dial, i'll kick you out of my house!

7 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

How tenable is your position when you have to dismiss a core aspect of the game in order to defend it?

Intel Agent has been a thing for awhile. Looking at your opponents dial has not broken the game.

10 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Isn't it interesting how the people most concerned about policing cheating almost always out themselves as being completely willing to cheat?

At home, we take 1 damage if we do stuff like that. It doesn't happen much anymore.

Accidents like that (casual play) happen when you're having a good time... so we laugh it off. I've never seen it happen during a tournament but I'm sure there will be no giggles.

19 hours ago, MonkeyInSpace said:

Obvious alt account is obvious. Next time, don't forgot which account you're replying to yourself from.

Not sure what you're on about. I intentionally quoted myself because no one responded nor ceased the ad hominem. I have but one account.

1 hour ago, Verlaine said:

<LE snip>

10 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

We need this now because of my first point.

I and presumably most others thought it would just be an immediate game loss. Now that it has come to light that even worlds judges won't do anything of significance about it, there isn't as much of a risk.

If you assume you'll get a game loss for trying it, it won't even cross your mind. There is nothing that could possibly be gained from doing it because you'll probably be given a game loss.

If a judge says that a game loss is too severe and that you should be given a warning or some poorly thought out punishment like having their opponent get to change their dial, all of a sudden it becomes a game where violating the rules and taking the punishment is sometimes worth the benefit.

These types of situations have been accumulating for 5 years now, and that's why some top players like Paul Heaver want floor rules. Clearly defined procedure and examples for situations like this.

You are presuming that most people didn't even think about this, which I find implausible. The idea of how to cheat pops into everyone's mind, even if they never act on it. Your assumption that people just never thought about it till now is not taking into account human nature. There are spelled out rules in society about what happens with theft, drug use, and murder, but they still happen. Implied rules are less likely to get results than even that. But still, peaking at opponents dials still isn't as wide spread a problem as you imply.

Also, if you could link to where Paul Heaven made that sentiment.

9 hours ago, LordBlades said:

IMO, because the stakes are too low currently.

For example, consider 2 concepts of rule breaking from European football that are quite similar to this: tactical fouls (deliberately committing a foul to halt the game and stop a potentially dangerous situation from developing against your team) and diving (trying to convince the referee a foul has been committed when none has. You won't see these in your backyard or in the school team, but everyone does it at the pro level because the rewards outweigh the risks.

Same for x-wing, if x-wing ever got a true pro level (by that I mean major e-sport level, where you could make a living out of it) I'd fully expect rules to be gamed.

Which fits into my cost vs. benefit analysis. Because there are no cash prizes (or the like) on the line, the benefit to cheating is too low to properly rationalize the cost. But even if the benefit goes up if X-Wing went pro, the cost goes up too. For pro events, there would likely be more streaming and judges on hand, making the likely hood of discovery all the more likely.

And finally, if the benefit of peaking at a dial goes up with going pro, so does the benefit of tricking someone into picking up your dial for an instant match win also go up, which is one reason why a harsh sentence like what Turbo is suggesting gives no net benefit to X-Wing, just harm.

35 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

You are presuming that most people didn't even think about this, which I find implausible. The idea of how to cheat pops into everyone's mind, even if they never act on it. Your assumption that people just never thought about it till now is not taking into account human nature. There are spelled out rules in society about what happens with theft, drug use, and murder, but they still happen. Implied rules are less likely to get results than even that. But still, peaking at opponents dials still isn't as wide spread a problem as you imply.

Also, if you could link to where Paul Heaven made that sentiment.

Which fits into my cost vs. benefit analysis. Because there are no cash prizes (or the like) on the line, the benefit to cheating is too low to properly rationalize the cost. But even if the benefit goes up if X-Wing went pro, the cost goes up too. For pro events, there would likely be more streaming and judges on hand, making the likely hood of discovery all the more likely.

And finally, if the benefit of peaking at a dial goes up with going pro, so does the benefit of tricking someone into picking up your dial for an instant match win also go up, which is one reason why a harsh sentence like what Turbo is suggesting gives no net benefit to X-Wing, just harm.

It's not that people didn't think about it. It's that they thought of looking at an opponent's dial and just assumed they'd get a game loss. Now apparently it's just some mistake that you can get a slap on the wrist for.

The idea that you'd trade dials or just get a warning is only something that comes about from a 12 page forum thread or a judge that is reluctant to cause a scene for giving out a game loss for an accident.

My argument is that it being an accident is both irrelevant because either way you're now privy to hidden information you're not supposed to have and it's still your fault for not taking the proper precautions, and it also looks indistinguishable from doing it intentionally.

Society cannot have laws because police can't be everywhere and it would be possible to frame people for crimes they didn't commit. This game cannot have rules because judges can't be everywhere and it would be possible to frame or trick your opponent with/into cheating.

Things can be accidental and you can still be held liable for being negligent.

In case you've missed it, I've also been okay with people marking their dial rivets with stickers or painting the plastic dials and have agreed with others that FFG should allow people to put dials on cards again.

11 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

It's not that people didn't think about it. It's that they thought of looking at an opponent's dial and just assumed they'd get a game loss. Now apparently it's just some mistake that you can get a slap on the wrist for.

Yes, because accidents happen and it is just a game. There are ways to catch cheaters, and one dial doesn't equal an automatic win.

11 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

The idea that you'd trade dials or just get a warning is only something that comes about from a 12 page forum thread or a judge that is reluctant to cause a scene for giving out a game loss for an accident.

No, that came from a number of experienced players who found the cure worse than the disease. Your suggestion is just as exploitable with a higher benefit, and the chance that people will be pushed out of the game entirely for simple mistakes while playing a _game_.

11 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

My argument is that it being an accident is both irrelevant because either way you're now privy to hidden information you're not supposed to have and it's still your fault for not taking the proper precautions, and it also looks indistinguishable from doing it intentionally.

And have you noticed how many people disagree with you? Once again, this is a game. A hobby. Mistakes happen. Requiring perfection from hobby players will lose the game customers.

13 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Society cannot have laws because police can't be everywhere and it would be possible to frame people for crimes they didn't commit. This game cannot have rules because judges can't be everywhere and it would be possible to frame or trick your opponent with/into cheating.

Once again, you twist a point beyond recognition. I was pointing out that even though there are laws with consequences, people still risk the cost for the benefit. Same with X-Wing players. The idea that they just assumed a bad consequence would happen if they peaked at another dial and that kept them from doing it is crazy.

16 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Things can be accidental and you can still be held liable for being negligent.

True, but that's why most players that accidentally do it offer some sort of recompense equal to the knowledge accidentally gained. Learning one dial and a game loss are not equal.

18 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

In case you've missed it, I've also been okay with people marking their dial rivets with stickers or painting the plastic dials and have agreed with others that FFG should allow people to put dials on cards again.

Good for you. Still doesn't make your idea any less extreme or harmful to the player base.

24 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Society cannot have laws because police can't be everywhere and it would be possible to frame people for crimes they didn't commit. This game cannot have rules because judges can't be everywhere and it would be possible to frame or trick your opponent with/into cheating.

Things can be accidental and you can still be held liable for being negligent.

Real-life law is not a good analogy for your argument, I think. For those cases where lawbreaking is severe enough to warrant extreme punishments, the judiciary is given broad latitude in sentencing based on circumstances and mitigating factors. Which is what the people opposing you here are mostly arguing for. In general, you only see "automatic" penalties for small crimes with small punishments, like parking tickets.

I'd just give up and let this thread die. A one-man war against the world isn't going to solve anything for either side!

3 hours ago, kris40k said:

Intel Agent has been a thing for awhile. Looking at your opponents dial has not broken the game.

Be sure to tell your opponent that when you "accidentally" look at his dial. One dial doesn't equal a win, isn't that right Sabinekey?

40 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

It's not that people didn't think about it. It's that they thought of looking at an opponent's dial and just assumed they'd get a game loss. Now apparently it's just some mistake that you can get a slap on the wrist for.

I'd loe to see a source that "most" people assumed they'd get a game loss. Just because YOU thought that doesn't mean everyone else does. And no one else in this thread seems to have chimed in that they assumed the same. Personally, I've never assumed a simple mistake like that would result in a game loss.

17 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Be sure to tell your opponent that when you "accidentally" look at his dial. One dial doesn't equal a win, isn't that right Sabinekey?

I was hoping that the realization that Intel Agent allows you to look at an opponents dial once every single round, yet was given the brutal point cost of 1 pt may have helped put some perspective on the idea that accidentally looking at an opponents dial is nowhere near the grievous offense that you apparently believe it to be, and that it (hidden information) is not so critical, or core, that the game breaks down if its compromised on accident.

Again, as I posted before, being penalized for breaking a rule is fine, but you may want to take a step back from your position and get some perspective.

Or you know, just go in like Walter and draw a gun during tournaments. /shrug

17 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Be sure to tell your opponent that when you "accidentally" look at his dial. One dial doesn't equal a win, isn't that right Sabinekey?

Yep. That's why an Intel Agent is useful because it can potentially look at one dial every single turn, with no cheating cost. And even then, it is used only for specific builds.

Just now, SabineKey said:

Yep. That's why an Intel Agent is useful because it can potentially look at one dial every single turn, with no cheating cost. And even then, it is used only for specific builds.

Not if you just look at an opponent's dial "accidentally". Then any list can have Intel Agent.

Just now, Turbo Toker said:

Not if you just look at an opponent's dial "accidentally". Then any list can have Intel Agent.

But at the potential cheating cost that already exists. If you try to peak every single around, you will likely be thrown out of the tournament, and possibly barred from returning to that store ever again. This is because there is no possible "oh, it was an accident" defense if done every single round, making the cheat obvious and easily dealt with.

Someone please remind me how to add people to ignore again?

Just now, SabineKey said:

But at the potential cheating cost that already exists. If you try to peak every single around, you will likely be thrown out of the tournament, and possibly barred from returning to that store ever again. This is because there is no possible "oh, it was an accident" defense if done every single round, making the cheat obvious and easily dealt with.

Then just treat it as the Phone a Friend option in Who Wants to be a Millionaire. A little boost that you can use once per event in order to bail you out of a tough spot.

I don't want that to exist in the game.

8 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Not if you just look at an opponent's dial "accidentally". Then any list can have Intel Agent.

I don't think you're going to have many people left to play with once your local group(s) quickly figure out you keep picking up a dial every game.

Just now, Turbo Toker said:

Then just treat it as the Phone a Friend option in Who Wants to be a Millionaire. A little boost that you can use once per event in order to bail you out of a tough spot.

I don't want that to exist in the game.

First, it is not as easy as you claim. If you are in a bad spot, you are likely up against a careful, watchful player. That player will either warning you if you pick up their dial and expect a form of restitution that fits the infraction (i.e., usually something less than a game loss). Does phone a friend have a risk like that?

and second, the it doesn't exist in the game. Move on.

Holy cow, this thread is still going on?

4 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Then just treat it as the Phone a Friend option in Who Wants to be a Millionaire. A little boost that you can use once per event in order to bail you out of a tough spot.

I don't want that to exist in the game.

Or...be an honest player and don't cheat.