Then you call a judge over and have it resolved and discuss the fact it is most likely intentionally done. If I was the judge in the situation then I would allow the player to choose another maneuver.
If you want argue an auto-loss for a game then the folks who are intentionally cheating to win could abuse the rule of an auto-loss by trying mix their dials with yours. So, that person would accidentally pick-up the dial. If their cheating they'll try to do anything regardless.
2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:And what if someone tricks their opponent into grabbing the wrong dial for the free win, like your suggestion would allow?
Sweet we did the same response.
5 minutes ago, SabineKey said:And what if someone tricks their opponent into grabbing the wrong dial for the free win, like your suggestion would allow?
Then you haven't taken the proper precautions. Take an extra second to make sure the dial is yours.
Likewise, why not intentionally pick up an opponent's dial in an obvious, carefree manner, and then when you're called out on it say that your opponent tricked you into doing it?
I've glanced at some of these posts in the 10+ pages and based on Turbo Toker last response:
Likewise, why not intentionally pick up an opponent's dial in an obvious, carefree manner, and then when you're called out on it say that your opponent tricked you into doing it?
The person to me is at the very least trying to just argue regardless. If this is truly an issue then I personally think some reasonable solutions could be (Their could be more reasonable solutions than an auto-loss):
1.) Have FFG dictate dials be placed on cards instead of near ships to remove this issue
2.) If the person accidentally pick-up the dial then their should be a ruling the person can change the maneuver.
In the meantime, if folks have an issue with this then they should differentiate their dials to better prevent the accidental pick-up. This at the very least gives them ground to call a judge over to resolve this by stating their opponent picked up their dials that is clearly marked.
In any event, I am done with this thread. I'm not feeding anymore into this.
4 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:Then you haven't taken the proper precautions. Take an extra second to make sure the dial is yours.
Likewise, why not intentionally pick up an opponent's dial in an obvious, carefree manner, and then when you're called out on it say that your opponent tricked you into doing it?
Because cheating carries penalties. Once again, it is about benefit and cost. The benefit is maybe learning something that will effect the game (but not always). The potential cost is a variety of penalties, including your proposed solution if evidence stacks up (like poor faking skills, or repeated cases adding up). The benefit doesn't really match the cost, thus you see a lack of this being a wide scale problem.
Your zero tolerance approach has an even higher benefit for about the same cost. How is that a better solution?
16 minutes ago, hey_yu said:Then you call a judge over and have it resolved and discuss the fact it is most likely intentionally done. If I was the judge in the situation then I would allow the player to choose another maneuver.
If you want argue an auto-loss for a game then the folks who are intentionally cheating to win could abuse the rule of an auto-loss by trying mix their dials with yours. So, that person would accidentally pick-up the dial. If their cheating they'll try to do anything regardless.
If the only punishment for looking at an opponent's dial is that they get to change it, just do it every turn to see where they're going. There won't always be a viable alternative.
They're stuck with their choice which would be the optimal maneuever or changing it to a sub-par maneuver in order to re-surprise you.
1 minute ago, Turbo Toker said:If the only punishment for looking at an opponent's dial is that they get to change it, just do it every turn to see where they're going. There won't always be a viable alternative.
They're stuck with their choice which would be the optimal maneuever or changing it to a sub-par maneuver in order to re-surprise you.
If it is so easy, why aren't people doing that everywhere right now?
1 hour ago, Turbo Toker said:How do you think I feel about this thread.
One thing that's funny is that people say that obvious cheating should be punished. And then when I say that it should result in a game loss, I'm told that I have bad judgment and that everyone is glad I'm not a judge.
How do you expect a judge to adequately judge a situation if the second they do something controversial, the pitchforks and torches come out? Someone looks at a dial, the integrity of the game has been ruined, the judge sees no other alternative than a game loss, and the judge relents because they'll be a lynch mob after him, so a potential cheater is allowed to get away with cheating.
How do you expect a judge to be able to properly assess the situation when it's going to cause a big ******* scene?
The truth is that "obvious" cheating will be indistinguishable from cheating that comes about from sincere mistakes, especially from the judge's perspective. A judge cannot possibly know one way or the other, so he'll have to give the offending player a warning. Which means that you can reliably get away with cheating in this way.
No judge will ever actually punish you for it, look at this thread.
I don't think people are opposed to a game loss for CHEATING and intentionally looking at opponents dials. People are oppsoed to that same punishment for ACCIDENTAL occasions.
6 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:If the only punishment for looking at an opponent's dial is that they get to change it, just do it every turn to see where they're going. There won't always be a viable alternative.
They're stuck with their choice which would be the optimal maneuever or changing it to a sub-par maneuver in order to re-surprise you.
If you're doing it repeatedly a judge is free to escalate the punishment, including game loss or disqualification.
7 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:If the only punishment for looking at an opponent's dial is that they get to change it, just do it every turn to see where they're going. There won't always be a viable alternative.
They're stuck with their choice which would be the optimal maneuever or changing it to a sub-par maneuver in order to re-surprise you.
At which point it would be obvious that you were intentionally cheating and not accidentally grabbing the wrong dial, and an automatic game loss and/or disqualification would be appropriate.
Obvious troll is obvious.
Seriously how is this thread still going?
13 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:At which point it would be obvious that you were intentionally cheating and not accidentally grabbing the wrong dial, and an automatic game loss and/or disqualification would be appropriate.
Obvious troll is obvious.
Seriously how is this thread still going?
Do it once per event, it won't be obvious then. Phone a Friend, Ask the Audience, 50/50. Save it for a crucial turn during a crucial game. The judge won't give you a game loss, it's not okay to punish someone for an ACCIDENTAL dial peek.
I don't accuse any of you of being trolls. I'm just as astounded as you are how dense the other side of the argument is being and how long this thread is.
I still respect your side enough to think that you guys legitimately feel this way and aren't just trolling. It's quite annoying that the same respect isn't granted to my side and that half the responses are logical fallacies and personal attacks and now accusations that Helios is my sock puppet account.
Edited by Turbo Toker2 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:Do it once per event, it won't be obvious then. Phone a Friend, Ask the Audience, 50/50. Save it for a crucial turn.
I don't accuse any of you of being trolls. I'm just as astounded as you are how dense the other side of the argument is being and how long this thread is.
I still respect your side enough to think that you guys legitimately feel this way and aren't just trolling. It's quite annoying that the same respect isn't granted to my side and that half the responses are logical fallacies and personal attacks and now accusations that Helios is my sock puppet account.
23 minutes ago, SabineKey said:If it is so easy, why aren't people doing that everywhere right now?
Where is the logical fallacy in this question?
Isn't it interesting how the people most concerned about policing cheating almost always out themselves as being completely willing to cheat?
20 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:Do it once per event, it won't be obvious then. Phone a Friend, Ask the Audience, 50/50. Save it for a crucial turn during a crucial game. The judge won't give you a game loss, it's not okay to punish someone for an ACCIDENTAL dial peek.
I don't accuse any of you of being trolls. I'm just as astounded as you are how dense the other side of the argument is being and how long this thread is.
I still respect your side enough to think that you guys legitimately feel this way and aren't just trolling. It's quite annoying that the same respect isn't granted to my side and that half the responses are logical fallacies and personal attacks and now accusations that Helios is my sock puppet account.
If you do it every event, you'll probably get the judge watching you and likely end up with harsher penalties as well
1 minute ago, SabineKey said:
Where is the logical fallacy in this question?
There is no logical fallacy. Despite our disagreements, you do not use any. Thank you. Sorry that I can't respond to everything, I make a counter argument to someone and 7 people respond to it.
The reason that people don't do this now is twofold.
One: I think people just assume that it's such a severe violation of game rules that it doesn't enter their minds. They assume that the penalties would be severe (such as game loss) even in case of an accident. Like I did until I heard the Worlds Judge on episode 61 of Mynock. When I heard his ruling, it was instantly apparent to me how easy it was to game. Before that, I assumed I would just be given a game loss for (accidentally) looking at an opponent's dial, especially at a big event.
Two: Most people that play this game are honest. This means that loopholes like this go unfixed. This community is also honest and well meaning to a fault. They won't speak up when someone does something against them, they'll just let it happen a bunch of times and only then say something. Honest and well meaning to the point where a severe penalty for a severe rule violation is considered too harsh.
4 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:If you do it every event, you'll probably get the judge watching you and likely end up with harsher penalties as well
This gets easier to do the bigger and more prestigious the event. Less chance of your reputation carrying over. Hundreds of people play at Worlds, a judge isn't going to know you or that you've done this already at 1 or 2 regionals.
How is this thread still going? It seems to be based on a vocal few voicing their crazed cheating paranoia about a rules infraction that is not wide spread
2 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:There is no logical fallacy. Despite our disagreements, you do not use any. Thank you. Sorry that I can't respond to everything, I make a counter argument to someone and 7 people respond to it.
The reason that people don't do this now is twofold.
One: I think people just assume that it's such a severe violation of game rules that it doesn't enter their minds. They assume that the penalties would be severe (such as game loss) even in case of an accident. Like I did until I heard the Worlds Judge on episode 61 of Mynock. When I heard his ruling, it was instantly apparent to me how easy it was to game. Before that, I assumed I would just be given a game loss for (accidentally) looking at an opponent's dial, especially at a big event.
Two: Most people that play this game are honest. This means that loopholes like this go unfixed. This community is also honest and well meaning to a fault. They won't speak up when someone does something against them, they'll just let it happen a bunch of times and only then say something. Honest and well meaning to the point where a severe penalty for a severe rule violation is considered too harsh.
And you can't see why both of the points you just made make your proposed solution needless? If the majority is honorable enough to not even consider it, then the need for a hard line policy is less. This game has been around for 5 years. This isn't a potential problem that just suddenly appeared. It has been there from the beginning, and still no one has abused it in the manner you seem to think is inevitable.
Also, you seem to be confusing honesty with a form of kindness. Honest people usually are even more strict on liars and cheaters, thus less likely to over look infractions. Honest does not equal nice. You can have both, but they are not the same thing.
The game has done just fine without the hard rule your are suggesting for 5 years. What has changed? Why do we need this now when evidence suggests that we haven't needed it before?
20 minutes ago, SabineKey said:And you can't see why both of the points you just made make your proposed solution needless? If the majority is honorable enough to not even consider it, then the need for a hard line policy is less. This game has been around for 5 years. This isn't a potential problem that just suddenly appeared. It has been there from the beginning, and still no one has abused it in the manner you seem to think is inevitable.
Also, you seem to be confusing honesty with a form of kindness. Honest people usually are even more strict on liars and cheaters, thus less likely to over look infractions. Honest does not equal nice. You can have both, but they are not the same thing.
The game has done just fine without the hard rule your are suggesting for 5 years. What has changed? Why do we need this now when evidence suggests that we haven't needed it before?
We need this now because of my first point.
I and presumably most others thought it would just be an immediate game loss. Now that it has come to light that even worlds judges won't do anything of significance about it, there isn't as much of a risk.
If you assume you'll get a game loss for trying it, it won't even cross your mind. There is nothing that could possibly be gained from doing it because you'll probably be given a game loss.
If a judge says that a game loss is too severe and that you should be given a warning or some poorly thought out punishment like having their opponent get to change their dial, all of a sudden it becomes a game where violating the rules and taking the punishment is sometimes worth the benefit.
These types of situations have been accumulating for 5 years now, and that's why some top players like Paul Heaver want floor rules. Clearly defined procedure and examples for situations like this.
Edited by Turbo Toker40 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:We need this now because of my first point.
I and presumably most others thought it would just be an immediate game loss. Now that it has come to light that even worlds judges won't do anything of significance about it, there isn't as much of a risk.
If you assume you'll get a game loss for trying it, it won't even cross your mind. There is nothing that could possibly be gained from doing it because you'll probably be given a game loss.
If a judge says that a game loss is too severe and that you should be given a warning or some poorly thought out punishment like having their opponent get to change their dial, all of a sudden it becomes a game where violating the rules and taking the punishment is sometimes worth the benefit.
These types of situations have been accumulating for 5 years now, and that's why some top players like Paul Heaver want floor rules. Clearly defined procedure and examples for situations like this.
You're the first person I've heard of who said they assumed it would result in a game loss. I've seen it happen before with nothing near a game loss for penalty.
If I recall correctly from worlds, the opponent got to pick a ship of the person who accidentally saw the wrong dial and change its dial to whatever they wanted. That will quite frequently mean you lose more than you gain for looking at a dial. You could easily have your most important ship flying the wrong direction, or onto a rock, or even off the board. Or directly into the teeth of your opponents list.
3 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:You're the first person I've heard of who said they assumed it would result in a game loss. I've seen it happen before with nothing near a game loss for penalty.
If I recall correctly from worlds, the opponent got to pick a ship of the person who accidentally saw the wrong dial and change its dial to whatever they wanted. That will quite frequently mean you lose more than you gain for looking at a dial. You could easily have your most important ship flying the wrong direction, or onto a rock, or even off the board. Or directly into the teeth of your opponents list.
This is exactly the type of punishment that's often worth taking in order to see what an opponent's planned maneuver is.
Rules are created to make the game balanced for both players, thats why you need a rule adjustment for this dial issue, its not weather or not a player is honorable or not, its so you dont need to LOOK for rules that a player MIGHT be tempted to exploit, The rule of K.I.S.S. takes precedence over all other rules, and that is KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID...
Keep Focus, Evade, Shield, Dials and ship NUMBERS, all ON, or at minimal Extremely close to your pilot card and upgrade cards associated with the ships needing said tokens. DO NOT place on the board, as all it does is clutter it up, and make for possible issues with :Hey, thats my token, or my dial" from even REMOTELY ENTERING the mind of ANY players in the first place. Keep the map clean, then even the most ADVANCED MANEUVERS reveal themselves on the board cause you dont need to look through all the other expanded information being thrown at you when you look at the main playing area.
This IS a rule I play as, and refuse to play any other way to get rid of mistakes, it started in Hero Clix for me, when people kept wanting to throw action tokens on there hero clix on the board, moving pieces, replacing pieces, etc. It is more work then needed and makes for possible exploits to happen if you arnt paying full attention. Table Top gaming should be like chess, Chess doesnt have its board cluttered by adding extra markers on the board when you are measuring your movements, adding a marker on the board so you know you just moved that pawn, people are not idiots, table top gaming should stop treating people like they are.
FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT, KISS KISS !!!
12 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:This is exactly the type of punishment that's often worth taking in order to see what an opponent's planned maneuver is.
Doesn't do much good to see their planned maneuver if your ship that's best able to (or possibly only one able to) take advantage of that knowledge if flying onto a rock as a result. Or off the board. Even more so if the player who's dial was seen originally gets to change THAT dial as well.
2 hours ago, SabineKey said:If it is so easy, why aren't people doing that everywhere right now?
IMO, because the stakes are too low currently.
For example, consider 2 concepts of rule breaking from European football that are quite similar to this: tactical fouls (deliberately committing a foul to halt the game and stop a potentially dangerous situation from developing against your team) and diving (trying to convince the referee a foul has been committed when none has. You won't see these in your backyard or in the school team, but everyone does it at the pro level because the rewards outweigh the risks.
Same for x-wing, if x-wing ever got a true pro level (by that I mean major e-sport level, where you could make a living out of it) I'd fully expect rules to be gamed.
Just now, VanderLegion said:Doesn't do much good to see their planned maneuver if your ship that's best able to (or possibly only one able to) take advantage of that knowledge if flying onto a rock as a result. Or off the board. Even more so if the player who's dial was seen originally gets to change THAT dial as well.
Ships won't always be near rocks, or near the table edge. Even if they are, it may still be worth it. Fly 8 TIE Fighters, lean all the way across the table, look at their 74 point Ghost dial, see that they tried to surprise you and planned the 5 K-Turn, then your opponent has to decide between sticking with the maneuver that is best for the situation and picking something different.
I'd say that's worth having a TIE Fighter land on a rock.
Just now, Turbo Toker said:Ships won't always be near rocks, or near the table edge. Even if they are, it may still be worth it. Fly 8 TIE Fighters, lean all the way across the table, look at their 74 point Ghost dial, see that they tried to surprise you and planned the 5 K-Turn, then your opponent has to decide between sticking with the maneuver that is best for the situation and picking something different.
I'd say that's worth having a TIE Fighter land on a rock.
Doesn't have to land you on a rock or fly you off the table edge to hurt you. Maybe you k-turn directly in front of their destination, so you're stressed with no actions and taking range 1 shots unable to return fire. maybe you only have one ship that has any repositioning to take advantage of knowing their destination and that ship gets flown off in the opposite direction where it doesn't help any. Theres any number of ways to screw over your opponent if you get to pick one of their dials.
And how bout suggestion some situations with actual competitive squads where it won't hurt you at all? Haven't seen an 8 tie swarm do well competitively in years. And my ghost couldn't care less if your 8 tie swarm sees my dial. You probably already know exactly what maneuver I'm doing, and my engine upgrade gives me some repositioning to deal with any barrel rolls you might do as a result of knowing what I'm doing. It's not like you're getting to change all of your dials to take advantage of knowing where I'm going. There's usually multiple possible good moves for a ship to take on a given turn. If you see their dial and they get to change it, they can either keep the one they had, or pick a different one. If they ONLY have 1 possible good maneuver, you already know what they're going to do, so seeing their dial doesn't give you any advantage.