22 hours ago, AceWing said:

Yes, accidents happen but we're talking about tournaments, not someone's basement.

That's just **** silly.

Hell, I was watching the NHL Playoffs last night, guys were breaking rules and the other team got a man advantage for 2 mins., they weren't immediately game loses when a player broke a rule. The Stanley Cup Playoffs are a hella more serious business than X-Wing Tournaments will ever be (so don't go acting all high and mighty while you push around plastic spaceships).

Because immediately losing a game is just **** stupid when accidents happen. Sure, a penalty is warranted, but get real.

Personal Anecdote:

The other day during a store tourney, my opponent and I placed dials, then remembered I had a Damaged Engine crit on my already stressed OL that I had set a (typically green) 2-turn on. I said, "wait a sec!" and grabbed OL's dial, quickly moving it to a 2-bank, then realized that my opponent had already revealed his first ships dial, with template in hand while I was messing with mine. I muttered, "****!" when I realized what just happened, then tossed him the dial and said, "Set it to whatever you want. Fly me into a rock, whatever. I'm sorry about that."

He was cool with it and we didn't have to get a judge involved and there was no screaming DQ's or for heads to be chopped. Accidents happen.

1 hour ago, eagletsi111 said:

I think they should rule that one of our opponents ships of your choosing has to perform a 2 red forward. This has been done by me and done to me several times. Most times it purely accidental, but there has to be a penalty for it. This is why more and more people are putting their dials on their ships cards then on the table.

This is what I'm talking about. There are often situations where it's worth that punishment.

If that was the rule, I would lean over to my opponent's cards, and look at a dial multiple times per game. It wouldn't even be cheating, no different from doing a red maneuver while already stressed.

Come up with a punishment that cannot be gamed.

Obvious alt account is obvious. Next time, don't forgot which account you're replying to yourself from.

As someone who has taken stands out of conviction in real-life, I don't subscribe to the notion of "if the majority is against you, you're in the wrong."

But in this case, you're in the wrong. You're absolutely in the wrong. The fact you can't get anyone to agree to your point (except your alt-account) should be proof of that, but you might just be a little too zoned to notice it.

Not that I'm passing judgement, mind you. Your posts are hilarious when I'm high, I can see why you'd want to keep this buzz going.

50 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Come up with a punishment that cannot be gamed.

Why? You seem to be the only one who's really pushing for a hard rule, rather than letting players and judges handle it. You want to push it, you come up with it. Your first suggestion was pronounced too harsh and equally gameable as what it was suppose to be guarding against. Use that feed back and see if you can come up with something that satisfies what you want out of the rule, but is also forgiving enough that the people who don't think this a major problem don't have too many problems with it. The ball is in your court.

51 minutes ago, MonkeyInSpace said:

Obvious alt account is obvious. Next time, don't forgot which account you're replying to yourself from.

Someone agrees with him. Must be a sock puppet.

49 minutes ago, MonkeyInSpace said:

As someone who has taken stands out of conviction in real-life, I don't subscribe to the notion of "if the majority is against you, you're in the wrong."

But in this case, you're in the wrong. You're absolutely in the wrong. The fact you can't get anyone to agree to your point (except your alt-account) should be proof of that, but you might just be a little too zoned to notice it.

Not that I'm passing judgement, mind you. Your posts are hilarious when I'm high, I can see why you'd want to keep this buzz going.

"I don't subscribe to the notion that being in the minority makes you wrong."

"The fact that you can't get anyone to agree with your point should be proof that you're wrong"

"Those people that agree with you are just sock puppet accounts"

1 hour ago, MonkeyInSpace said:

Obvious alt account is obvious. Next time, don't forgot which account you're replying to yourself from.

Just lacks a "This is from him"

18 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Someone agrees with him. Must be a sock puppet.

In your case yes. Having two people in the universe as stupid and dense as you is impossible

7 minutes ago, Holmelund said:

In your case yes. Having two people in the universe as stupid and dense as you is impossible

Has my side of the argument called you stupid and dense, accused you of being trolls, and having sock puppet accounts? Persisted with personal attacks after numerous clarifications that my hypothetical cheater situations were rhetorical devices?

I vehemently disagree with VanorDM, but I don't think he's a troll just because he refuses to side with me in spite of (what I think are) reasonable arguments.

1 hour ago, Turbo Toker said:

Has my side of the argument called you stupid and dense, accused you of being trolls, and having sock puppet accounts? Persisted with personal attacks after numerous clarifications that my hypothetical cheater situations were rhetorical devices?

I vehemently disagree with VanorDM, but I don't think he's a troll just because he refuses to side with me in spite of (what I think are) reasonable arguments.

You're like that one guy that lives down on the corner and complains about how people don't really stop at the stop sign like they should and if it was up to you, you'd blow their tires out and laugh as they spun off into a glorious, fiery death.

sure, others see people rolling by the stop sign but no one seems to think it deserves the death penalty and so they call you an extremist and the next thing you know, you're huffing more paint thinners, hit the internet and boom, here we are.

1 hour ago, Turbo Toker said:

Has my side of the argument called you stupid and dense, accused you of being trolls, and having sock puppet accounts? Persisted with personal attacks after numerous clarifications that my hypothetical cheater situations were rhetorical devices?

I vehemently disagree with VanorDM, but I don't think he's a troll just because he refuses to side with me in spite of (what I think are) reasonable arguments.

And I get it, you might not be trolling, you might just be like that guy in a club that looks, smells and feels like a Lebanese dealer and is always being asked "how much."

Time to fire that alt–account back up and put us in our place again!

3 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

This is what I'm talking about. There are often situations where it's worth that punishment.

If that was the rule, I would lean over to my opponent's cards, and look at a dial multiple times per game. It wouldn't even be cheating, no different from doing a red maneuver while already stressed.

Come up with a punishment that cannot be gamed.

Something can be against the rules and not result in an instant game loss. That doesn't make you any less of a cheater if you purposely break the rules when you see an advantage in it. And if you're leaning over to your opponents cards and purposeful flipping their dial to see it, that's completely different from accidentally picking up the wrong dial. And the judge is free to deal wit said cheating as they see fit.

22 minutes ago, MonkeyInSpace said:

And I get it, you might not be trolling, you might just be like that guy in a club that looks, smells and feels like a Lebanese dealer and is always being asked "how much."

Time to fire that alt–account back up and put us in our place again!

You do realize that someone might want to quote one of their own posts in order to expand upon a point they had previously made, right?

In a situation where another person is being attacked personally, you point it out, and then after multiple clarifications is still being attacked, for example.

2 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

You do realize that it's possibly to get so high that a poster could forget which account they had used to respond to a point they had previously made, right?

In a situation where another person is pushing an idea that has not achieved consensus yet they continue to push it because, gosh darn it, they just know they are right, for example.

Yup, understood.

2 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

You do realize that someone might want to quote one of their own posts in order to expand upon a point they had previously made, right?

In a situation where another person is being attacked personally, you point it out, and then after multiple clarifications is still being attacked, for example.

God you're tedious.

50 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

God you're tedious.

How do you think I feel about this thread.

One thing that's funny is that people say that obvious cheating should be punished. And then when I say that it should result in a game loss, I'm told that I have bad judgment and that everyone is glad I'm not a judge.

How do you expect a judge to adequately judge a situation if the second they do something controversial, the pitchforks and torches come out? Someone looks at a dial, the integrity of the game has been ruined, the judge sees no other alternative than a game loss, and the judge relents because they'll be a lynch mob after him, so a potential cheater is allowed to get away with cheating.

How do you expect a judge to be able to properly assess the situation when it's going to cause a big ******* scene?

The truth is that "obvious" cheating will be indistinguishable from cheating that comes about from sincere mistakes, especially from the judge's perspective. A judge cannot possibly know one way or the other, so he'll have to give the offending player a warning. Which means that you can reliably get away with cheating in this way.

No judge will ever actually punish you for it, look at this thread.

12 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

How do you think I feel about this thread.

One thing that's funny is that people say that obvious cheating should be punished. And then when I say that it should result in a game loss, I'm told that I have bad judgment and that everyone is glad I'm not a judge.

How do you expect a judge to adequately judge a situation if the second they do something controversial, the pitchforks and torches come out? Someone looks at a dial, the integrity of the game has been ruined, the judge sees no other alternative than a game loss, and the judge relents because they'll be a lynch mob after him, so a potential cheater is allowed to get away with cheating.

How do you expect a judge to be able to properly assess the situation when it's going to cause a big ******* scene?

The truth is that "obvious" cheating will be indistinguishable from cheating that comes about from sincere mistakes, especially from the judge's perspective. A judge cannot possibly know one way or the other, so he'll have to give the offending player a warning. Which means that you can reliably get away with cheating in this way.

No judge will ever actually punish you for it, look at this thread.

You do know that Judges have other options besides DQ to remedy potental cases of cheating, right? And that patterns of behavior can show up, leading to greedy cheaters getting caught?

Judges have authority to DQ people, but are expected to use that power as a scalpel for surgical use, not a hammer to pound every problem out.

I can't believe this thread is still going.

@Turbo Toker, it's most likely evident the person did it intentionally if they picked up a dial that is not their faction (because of the dial color difference), unless they are colored blind. Or if one is using the new dial inserts and the other isn't. The other case of the same faction is hard to determine whether or not they did it intentionally.

In any event if FFG views that dial picking up is a prevalent issue then they can change the rule where they place the dial on their cards instead of near the ships. This should remove any issue.

Just now, SabineKey said:

You do know that Judges have other options besides DQ to remedy potental cases of cheating, right? And that patterns of behavior can show up, leading to greedy cheaters getting caught?

Judges have authority to DQ people, but are expected to use that power as a scalpel for surgical use, not a hammer to pound every problem out.

I've never said that this would be a DQ. I've been saying game loss.

1 minute ago, Turbo Toker said:

I've never said that this would be a DQ. I've been saying game loss.

Fair. Still the same problem.

15 minutes ago, hey_yu said:

I can't believe this thread is still going.

@Turbo Toker, it's most likely evident the person did it intentionally if they picked up a dial that is not their faction (because of the dial color difference), unless they are colored blind. Or if one is using the new dial inserts and the other isn't. The other case of the same faction is hard to determine whether or not they did it intentionally.

In any event if FFG views that dial picking up is a prevalent issue then they can change the rule where they place the dial on their cards instead of near the ships. This should remove any issue.

I can't believe this thread is still going either.

If you picked up an enemy dial by accident, it would look indistinguishable from intentionally doing it. You would assume that the dial is yours, and pick it up in an obvious, carefree manner.

Someone intentionally picking up an opponent's dial would also do it in an obvious, carefree manner.

If someone is die hard about tournament play and has issue with potential dial pick-up then they should differential their dials.

I have someone I know that puts a pink dot on the back of their black plastic of the dial so folks knows it is theirs. They do this to prevent mix of their possession more than "accidental" dial pick-up. They do this for all their stuff including obstacles.

7 minutes ago, hey_yu said:

If someone is die hard about tournament play and has issue with potential dial pick-up then they should differential their dials.

I have someone I know that puts a pink dot on the back of their black plastic of the dial so folks knows it is theirs. They do this to prevent mix of their possession more than "accidental" dial pick-up. They do this for all their stuff including obstacles.

So when someone picks up a dial that has been marked and is clearly not theirs, then they should get a game loss?

Because the offender is either doing it intentionally or hasn't taken the proper precautions in order to avoid the accident?

6 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

So when someone picks up a dial that has been marked and is clearly not theirs, then they should get a game loss?

Because the offender is either doing it intentionally or hasn't taken the proper precautions in order to avoid the accident?

And what if someone tricks their opponent into grabbing the wrong dial for the free win, like your suggestion would allow?