3 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

lol @ please retract.. This is the internet, bud. Get used to being insulted.

I asked it for him not me! It was such an unfortunate comparison.

28 minutes ago, Voitek said:

I actually made several attani-based lists (involving Kavil/Palob/torpedoless scout with title) around september and I have won a couple of local tournaments with it, documenting it with facebook posts But no one believed when I was praising attani as the best scum EPT. Until parattani started to dominate

We need more people like you posting on the forums. YOU ARE ONE OF THE TRUE PROPHETS.

I mean it I'm not being sarcastic

Edit: Sorry for the double post I suck from mobile

15 minutes ago, haritos said:

You seriously compared a person flying the list he likes to punching you in the face? Like, on what grounds? Please retract that statement it's so inaccurate it hurts man.

But I like punching you in the face! You don't like it, though.

Seems like a pretty apt analogy for the issue at hand, which is that one person's adverse reaction is of a greater magnitude than the other person's positive reaction.

On 15.04.2017 at 4:36 PM, haritos said:

Come on guys, you totally failed to predict what an amazing card Attani Mindlink was when people talked about it, you never payed attention to Sabine crew til someone flew it against you, and now you totally fail to predict the impact Kylo party crits will have in the meta? Should we link some of your doom threads to really get this party going? Should we try to make #whereiskylo viral?

I thought you guys are the experts FFG listens to.

Frankly? I have no idea what you're going on about.

Freaking everyone knew Mindlink was going to become amazing at some point, we were just waiting for a favourable metagame and good ships to carry it. When it was released, the deadeye uboats were simply superior, and we had neither the Shadow Caster nor the Fang Fighter to abuse it.

Torp boats counter bomb K-Wings. Until they got nerfed out of the meta you needed to be absolutely amazing to stand a chance in that matchup (funnily enough, one local player mained K-Wings hard since the release of Sabine crew (he literally never showed up to a tournament with a diffrent list)). A few months later, he's became one of the most feared players in the country- even before the first U-Boat nerf. That said, it takes a very special kind of player to run the same list around 300 times, which is why it didn't become a major threat until the meta shifted.

Kylo crew wasn't universally regarded as a game-changing cards (there were a few evangelists, but just as many or more people were sceptic). What we did all agree upon was that the card creates an NPE (negative play experience) and deepens the issue of rock-paper-scisors in the game, and those points very much still stand. Additionally, the metagame is pretty lame for Kylo at the moment, as torpboats aren't very afraid of it and Biggs invalidates him.

I must admit that I am trying quite hard to make ISYTDS a thing, there just doesn't seem to be an interesting way of doing it though... just Decimator grinding around seems the only way that properly works.

I'm looking forward to Kylo's TIE Fighter around christmas time, which surely must come. A fighter with his ability might be nice!

13 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I must admit that I am trying quite hard to make ISYTDS a thing, there just doesn't seem to be an interesting way of doing it though... just Decimator grinding around seems the only way that properly works.

I'm looking forward to Kylo's TIE Fighter around christmas time, which surely must come. A fighter with his ability might be nice!

I like him with Omega Ace. It's thematic and requires you to have everything in place to make it work. Not efficient of course.

2 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

But I like punching you in the face! You don't like it, though.

Seems like a pretty apt analogy for the issue at hand, which is that one person's adverse reaction is of a greater magnitude than the other person's positive reaction.

If by "apt analogy" you mean to say "wildly hyperbolic non sequitur" then I'd say you nailed it. People showing you the dark side of the force in the pretend spaceship game we play is not an assault. It's not illegal, not even in the context of the rules of the game, and furthermore it has been repeated throughout the thread that Kylo Ren really doesn't show up all that often to boot. If you equate someone hurting your spaceship feelings in a game you have chosen to play with acts of physical violence against your body, perhaps you're too tender for games that you have to play with others.

12 minutes ago, E Chu Ta said:

If by "apt analogy" you mean to say "wildly hyperbolic non sequitur" then I'd say you nailed it. People showing you the dark side of the force in the pretend spaceship game we play is not an assault. It's not illegal, not even in the context of the rules of the game, and furthermore it has been repeated throughout the thread that Kylo Ren really doesn't show up all that often to boot. If you equate someone hurting your spaceship feelings in a game you have chosen to play with acts of physical violence against your body, perhaps you're too tender for games that you have to play with others.

You're caught up in the literal, focus on the figurative.

24 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

You're caught up in the literal, focus on the figurative.

Ok, I will. Let's go from your followup statement

3 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

... one person's adverse reaction is of a greater magnitude than the other person's positive reaction.

This is deeply subjective, and you're ignoring the very real possibility that some folks out there really, truly enjoy showing their opponents the Dark Side. Theres this projection that everyone hates it, and the implied complimentary assumption that nobody likes it, which I think is deeply flawed. Insofar as a direct response, I agree that it is important to note and deal with a disparity in player's reactions, really read to be "how much fun we're having." It's a bummer when one is having all the fun, and the other is pretty miserable, but this is a game that the participants have chosen to play. It'll be done in an hour and change. You can try something different next time.

Only in nightmare scenarios will people be made to play games of X-Wing against their will.

If you really, really do not want to be shown the Dark Side, just take Determination and blithely ignore Kylo Ren's insipid whining...

..or be a Chewbacca...

...or play with buds who are willing to shelf their best bud Ben Solo every now and then so you could fly against something else...

...or just bite the bullet the times when you see Kylo staring you down with a blided pilot locked and loaded accross the table, because by all accounts he isn't flown terribly often...

We're here, in a thread arranged by someone who plays with plastic spaceships to gloat about the fallibility of other people who play with plastic spaceships when it comes to predicting the effects of new developments in the world of plastic spaceships. We, two people who play with plastic spaceships, at least one of which makes "pew pew" noises while firing (me), are arguing from accross the planet.

...about plastic spaceships.

We live in a world of miracles.

Kylo, like BMST, has VERY strong abilities, but come with the price of an Action. Kylo is not a crew to use every round. You use it once, and maybe it happens during the game, maybe it doesn't. These action upgrades with strong abilities always get blown out of proportion. In your mind, that ability is just broken, but on the table, an action is a golden nugget. 3pts for a crew that is used once or twice when other crew like Rebel Captive/Operation Spec/Agent Kallus, etc can give you strong abilities for no aciton and used every round. Also, PTL Imperial ships with crew slots dont really exist. So kylo is your lone action. And imps dont have attanni mindlink to pass free focuses to free up other actions.

Another reason it is not at top tables, is that Kylo does not affect every game. Does it really matter if you drop Ryad from PS5 to 0 when you have Vader or Whisper? You might sneak a blinded through but she can 5 speed away and can turtle up, then you still have to eat through her shields anyways.

The power of Kylo isnt even choosing the crit to deal. I think the true power is going through shields. I played against R2D2 C3PO Norra. I got her down to 1 hull left, and then she was able to regen all her shields back. Well, with Kylo, all I needed was one crit to go through and she died. Didnt matter how many shields she regened.

The right ship will make Kylo really really strong. If Imps ever get a ship like the Lancer, with amazing greens to carry PTL and a crew, watch out.

2 hours ago, wurms said:

The right ship will make Kylo really really strong. If Imps ever get a ship like the Lancer, with amazing greens to carry PTL and a crew, watch out.

This.

ive seen him devistate a list almost by bringing its Ace to his knees, and I've seen it waste away on a decimated squad and do nothing really...... mostly the latter. In fact, as I think about it, besides that one game, he's never been much or even paid for himself, in my albeit somewhat limited experience. Although the Emperial Navy is supposedly powerful, their crew carrying ships are all handicapped in one big way or another, making good synergies few and far between. The lamentations of the dark faction continue......

I've only really skimmed through the thread so please forgive me if I'm not the first to point this out, but I'm pretty sure all the Kylo NPE threads were all before "The Great Nerfening".

Any predictions of meta changing cards that we made before the FAQ/Nerf are almost entirely irrelevant now. Boasting about how ridiculous those players now sound or running players opinions into the ground just seems petty.

Stresshog is back and the bane of many, but anyone claiming it was too good or a NPE in the era of Dengaroo or pre-errata X7 would have been laughed at for considering the notion.

The whole meta shifted because of the changes, dragging up old arguments from a completely irrelevant meta really is pointless.

13 hours ago, haritos said:

For every whiner not enjoying playing against a list, there is a player sitting opposite him who enjoys it.

As much as I find it distasteful to agree with Stay on Target, after he acted like a total asshat in one my threads, his analogy is totally apt. But since that's giving some crybabies a hissy fit, I can add to the argument another way.

There is NOT always a player sitting opposite him who enjoys it, and frankly I have to wonder about a person who gets off on giving somebody a bad a experience. I tried playing a Quad TLT list once and will never do it again. Not only was it boring, but it was as unfun for me as the guy I played against. I will not play a Kylo list in any match that where I want both parties to enjoy themselves, because he's toxic... kind of like the guy who started this thread to begin with.

It looks like there's a group of players here that believes basically this: "winning is always fun and losing never is, so there is no reason to argue about how much fun a card is." I think that's a flawed position, regardless of how I feel about Kylo Ren crew.

23 minutes ago, Verlaine said:

It looks like there's a group of players here that believes basically this: "winning is always fun and losing never is, so there is no reason to argue about how much fun a card is." I think that's a flawed position, regardless of how I feel about Kylo Ren crew.

No, they assert that everything is subjective, so therefore it all comes down to personal taste. So when someone complains about something ruining the game and not being fun, they're told, "Not liking something is not a reason to nerf it."

This argument is used to force their awful ruined wasteland meta that they have zero problem with, >their subjective taste<, onto everyone else. What Stay On Target said with his analogy is on-*******-point.

So instead of having a good meta forced upon us, we'll instead have a ruined one forced upon us. "Turrets don't ruin the game and they take skill to fly, you just don't like them. That's not a reason to nerf something."

This game is all about having fun and enjoying it, so what their side of the argument needs to do in order to win is use scorched earth tactics. Just like a retreating enemy army would burn all of its crops and resources and armaments so that you cannot have them and there is nothing to be gained from fighting, they destroy any possible means of saying that the game is not fun and needs to be changed. With the ability to judge things based on how fun they are removed from all discussion, no criticism of the game could ever have any impact because, "that's just like your opinion bro".

It's quite clever and insidious really.

I still say that Jar Jar Binks <crew> will be so OP when he is finally released (in a $100 huge ship expansion no less)

Kylo on RAC works very well indeed. I think it's only a matter of time before some good player wins a major tournament with him and we're gonna see Kylos all over the place. Kylo allows RAC to survive the early game and in the late game a high PS PWT with EU is just ridiculous.

The only thing that keeps Kylo even remotely balanced is that there are only 2 blinded pilots in the deck. Even so he can easily be worth his points with just 1 good use.

I also think that damage going through shields is BS that will keep any expensive 2 hull ships out of the meta potentially indefinitely. Blinding enemies is one thing. You can do it twice a game, it costs an action and you need an undefended crit to make it happen so it's somewhat balanced. But 2-shotting Corran? Come on!

It would be way better if the condition resulted in the affected ship suffering the EFFECT of the chosen card (in addition to normal damage) but the card itself were discarded afterwards rather than assigned to it. That would keep Kylo's intended utility intact without the negative effect he's likely to have on meta sooner or later.

And that comes from a player who likes and plays Kylo (3 tournaments won so far without a single loss, the card's ridiculous).

12 hours ago, mkevans80 said:

As much as I find it distasteful to agree with Stay on Target, after he acted like a total asshat in one my threads, his analogy is totally apt. But since that's giving some crybabies a hissy fit, I can add to the argument another way.

There is NOT always a player sitting opposite him who enjoys it, and frankly I have to wonder about a person who gets off on giving somebody a bad a experience. I tried playing a Quad TLT list once and will never do it again. Not only was it boring, but it was as unfun for me as the guy I played against. I will not play a Kylo list in any match that where I want both parties to enjoy themselves, because he's toxic... kind of like the guy who started this thread to begin with.

OK, so you tried a list and didn't like it. Now you won't fly it, obviously. So you just gave me an exception to the rule, because the rule is "people fly what they enjoy flying".

Now are you telling me that if Kylo was genuinely your favourite pilot to fly, you wouldn't use him if the player sitting opposite you forbid it (for justifiable reasons or not)?

And to make sure you answer truthfully, consider this: if the player opposite you only likes playing against lists you hate flying, would you EVER force yourself to fly them? And why would you? Or why should you? Shouldn't you have fun?

Personally, I find people demanding you fly what THEY want beyond ridiculous. I am pretty sure you re just raising this argument simply because you have nothing else to use against Kylo, now that he has been proven beyond doubt to not be broken. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth but I'm pretty sure you don't mean what you re saying literally.

It's a game of plastic spaceships like a fellow said. If a ship is not objectively broken (which miraculously, no one is saying that anymore after endless prerelease tears) you should respect the player that wants to fly it. In your example you admitted yourself to not liking the list you tested, that's why YOU won't fly it. Because YOU didn't enjoy it.

The pilot isn't the problem at all.

The crew is. Specifically on RAC with HotShot Copilot and Gunner, and probably VI or Predator and Engine Upgrade, alongside a wingman who can deal out crits such as Vader.

Kylo Pilot isn't trivial to kill, and I think will find a place in the meta, but he's got significant weaknesses, and ISYTDS in particular is not in the control of his player, but his opponent, and is only dealt AFTER the first shot of the combat at the very earliest, which makes it a LOT less effective.

1 hour ago, haritos said:

OK, so you tried a list and didn't like it. Now you won't fly it, obviously. So you just gave me an exception to the rule, because the rule is "people fly what they enjoy flying".

Now are you telling me that if Kylo was genuinely your favourite pilot to fly, you wouldn't use him if the player sitting opposite you forbid it (for justifiable reasons or not)?

And to make sure you answer truthfully, consider this: if the player opposite you only likes playing against lists you hate flying, would you EVER force yourself to fly them? And why would you? Or why should you? Shouldn't you have fun?

Personally, I find people demanding you fly what THEY want beyond ridiculous. I am pretty sure you re just raising this argument simply because you have nothing else to use against Kylo, now that he has been proven beyond doubt to not be broken. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth but I'm pretty sure you don't mean what you re saying literally.

It's a game of plastic spaceships like a fellow said. If a ship is not objectively broken (which miraculously, no one is saying that anymore after endless prerelease tears) you should respect the player that wants to fly it. In your example you admitted yourself to not liking the list you tested, that's why YOU won't fly it. Because YOU didn't enjoy it.

Wow, the level of strawman in this argument is well over 9000. I've rarely experienced somebody making my argument for me so completely. That's quite an accomplishment.

I found Quad-TLT's boring to play, yes, but the biggest reason I won't fly it anymore is because how boring and frustrating it was for the other player. In other words, I primarily disliked playing the list because of how unfun it was for my opponent. If I like Quad TLT's, then I would find people who don't mind them, and play some games with them. Same goes for if I loved Kylo... I would not take that list in a casual match against a friend who hates playing against him. If I really wanted to play him, I'd find an opponent who's ok with it. Just the other day I asked my regular game opponent if he could take a break from flying Quickdraw. I don't mind the pilot, in fact I quite like her, but he had used her in 5 or 6 games in a row, all with slightly different configurations, and I was just getting tired of her. Because my friend is a nice guy, he brought different lists for the next couple of games. Now my palate is cleansed and I would be ok with seeing her on the table again.

If I were practicing for a tournament and really wanted to practice a list that my friend found distasteful to play against, I would ask him if he's willing to put up with a couple of less-than-ideal matches for the purpose of helping his friend practice. He could either say yes or no, knowing that I'd be willing to do the same for him. In that case we are sacrificing some short-term fun for the benefit of our friends, which equals a long-term dividends. But what I'm certainly NOT going to do is bring whatever the hell I want and tell my friend to "suck it up, buttercup" because I have some god-given, inalienable right to play whatever I want. That's a surefire way to not play any more X-Wing with my friend.

I would suggest that you consider accommodating another person once in a while. The best part about making other people happy is that doing so can make YOU happy... assuming you are not a sociopath or some kind of bitter/greedy broken person. Doing this will make you a better friend, a better relationship partner... just a happier, better person in general. That being said, you don't have to be a doormat, and you should expect reciprocation.

Honestly the neatest answer is to errata the Blinded Pilot crit somehow. It's one of the swingiest bits of variance in the whole game.

"You cannot modify your attack dice. Action: flip this card face down"

Something like that.

2 hours ago, mkevans80 said:

If I were practicing for a tournament and really wanted to practice a list that my friend found distasteful to play against, I would ask him if he's willing to put up with a couple of less-than-ideal matches for the purpose of helping his friend practice. He could either say yes or no, knowing that I'd be willing to do the same for him. In that case we are sacrificing some short-term fun for the benefit of our friends, which equals a long-term dividends.

So now you re talking about something else entirely, which is sacrificing fun for the sake of your X-wing buddy.

Something which of course has zero relevance to the discussion of Kylo Ren overall and the past complaining of certain parts of the community against him. I guess everyone here should just have asked people not to fly dengaroo right? You think it's fine for everyone here to cry about a list they don't like and expect strangers to stop flying it, or FFG to nerf it. You seriously expect that to happen based on what you define as fun?

But even at a friend level, you just gave us the ideal scenario. I 've played lists a friend wanted to practise against as well. But I also have an x wing buddy who absolutely hates scum and calls me a wuss for flying them instead of my Imperial ships. Guess what, I will occasionally fly imperials ONLY because it's my friend asking it, but you can be sure as hell that if I want to play with my scum plastic pieces. I will.

I am glad you can sort this out with your friend, but believe me, if a grown up man came up to me at a store and actually aksed me not to fly the list I'm pumped to try, I'd tell him to suck it up.

Not because I'm an ass, but because HE is creating a problem, not me.

PS: stop using exceptions as examples. Your friend brought some different ships becaused you asked him once. What do you think his answer would be if you said "don't ever bring that ship you love against me cause it sucks"?

27 minutes ago, haritos said:

I am glad you can sort this out with your friend, but believe me, if a grown up man came up to me at a store and actually aksed me not to fly the list I'm pumped to try, I'd tell him to suck it up.

Not because I'm an ass, but because HE is creating a problem, not me.

He is not creating a problem. Nor are you creating a problem. You are both being forthright about the type of game you want to play. Kudos! It makes it far more likely that you each will be satisfied by the game you eventually get. However, it is very unlikely to be against one another. This simple exchange demonstrates that each of you should seek out a different opponent. Frank pre-game conversations like this are fantastic, and should be encouraged.

The problem is that many people (most people?) are hesitant to ask for the game they want, for fear of seeming impolite (precisely what you just accused this hypothetical grown man of doing). So they will sit down to a game that they don't enjoy. This is why @mkevans80 and others forbear from using things like Kylo or Quad TLT; they expect that their opponent is unlikely to speak up about what they don't want to see in a game, and are trying to preemptively look out for the other guy's enjoyment.

Taking some responsibility for your opponent's fun is a very important thing, when playing in and building a community. My only advice to folks is to have a conversation, rather than guessing what your opponent will and will not want to see. Barring that, though...steering clear of "contentious" cards in casual play is a more thoughtful option than looking out purely for yourself. You aren't bad or wrong to use Kylo without a discussion, and nobody can reasonably argue otherwise, but you are probably not building many bridges, either.

36 minutes ago, haritos said:

I am glad you can sort this out with your friend, but believe me, if a grown up man came up to me at a store and actually aksed me not to fly the list I'm pumped to try, I'd tell him to suck it up.

Not because I'm an ass, but because HE is creating a problem, not me.

I'm pretty sure that makes you an ass.

Kylo Crew is good but not OP and is kind of a NPE, but I like Kylo Pilot better. It gives an option to the other player and the ability to work around it. It also saves a ton of health on my Upsilon and add Rebel Captive to that combo, virtually no one decides to shoot at the **** thing.