12 hours ago, Xerandar said:

He ruined TFA...

There, I said it.

I expect someday a fan made short film. What if Chewee impacted not his leg but his groin instead. Why he put off his mask...

Actually, Attani Mindlink wasn't a particularly powerful card - when it was first released. It's the subsequent addition to the game of ships with green hard turns and a limited need to do red maneuvers that really broke it, because they could then ignore the downside of shared stress.

The Lancer and the Protectorate were both released after Attani Mindlink, and it's very noticable that (triple Jumpmasters aside) almost all competitive Mindlink lists use one or more of these ships. Jumpmasters are the one exception as they were released with Mindlink, but that's because until recently there wasn't any need for them to Mindlink. That's because they had various mech and (formerly) deadeye combos which were even nastier - it's taken multiple successive nerfs to them to make mindlink a viable option, rather than the weaker choice!

On 4/15/2017 at 8:36 AM, Tom1132 said:

I, for one, think Cad Bane will be the one to break the game.

Even though we don't have his card text yet.

Did I 'forum' correctly?

Cad Bane is DOA just like the TIE/sf

I love the TIE/SF. To bad the only good Imperial ships don't fly or are statted like Imperials.

I think there was more than enough "meh, Kylo's beatable but sucks the fun away" posts for people to feel justified in ignoring the trollish OP.

What we all have to fear, now, is some other later expansion that turns Kylo up to 11.

On 15.4.2017 at 4:48 PM, Sciencius said:

I second that, GUNBOAT!

Did somebody say GUNBOAT?!

Hmm... so in retrospect there was never much of an issue with Kylo? People blasting him was just a reaction that we all secretly knew had no real substance to it from what I understand.

I wonder if that's the case with all the other i-am-a-design-expert-listen-to-me-i-know-how-to-save-xwing threads (currently, I think its TLTS, Sabine and Attani right?) . TLTs are not broken, they are just not fun to play against like Kylo isn't right? So we can stop crying now just like we did with Kylo?

I think players look at Kylo crew like this. He is not at all fun to play with or against and he doesn't give enough of a competitive edge to make people ignore the fact that he sucks the fun out of a game. I for one am glad because I hate that **** condition.

58 minutes ago, haritos said:

Hmm... so in retrospect there was never much of an issue with Kylo? People blasting him was just a reaction that we all secretly knew had no real substance to it from what I understand.

So let me know if I'm following... you're making a big deal and overreacting to what you perceive was people overreacting to something that wasn't a big deal.

TLTs aren't fun. Any idiot newb can put 4 shots or more on target with no piloting skill required... there's little reward for flying well, little penalty for flying poorly. Same is said for mindlink. Similar for Kylo.

People complain about things they don't like. Especially on this internet thing.

if you think you've got some sort of basis for this trollish moral high ground you've randomly decided to put a flag on, please find the thread where everyone reached a consensus that Kylo would be winning tourneys or be a top table pilot.

I'll wait

The one player who ran it seriously in our meta went undefeated in swiss at our regional. I don't think he's played it since. Having faced him in the final round, it's not something I'd bring to a more casual tournament.

I did bring it to the Naboo hangar bay (on a TIE Shuttle with Vader and Whisper) and I have to say that people did not seem to find it fun at all when it triggered. The horribleness it may inflict is all fine, but he's not fun to play against at all.

It might be competitive, but I'm not likely to bring the crew version out willy-nilly.

On 4/16/2017 at 2:05 AM, Stay On The Leader said:

I think most of the complaints weren't that he was too good, but that good or not he was a bad game experience.

I think those complaints are entirely accurate.

I have never complained or been put off by a card before, from TLT, Biggs and Zuckuss. But any game that has had Kylo crew in it has always been a massive NPE for me. I have always believed he should have been, "When you are dealt a faceup card, deal the card on IWSYTDS instead".

2 hours ago, haritos said:

Hmm... so in retrospect there was never much of an issue with Kylo? People blasting him was just a reaction that we all secretly knew had no real substance to it from what I understand.

I wonder if that's the case with all the other i-am-a-design-expert-listen-to-me-i-know-how-to-save-xwing threads (currently, I think its TLTS, Sabine and Attani right?) . TLTs are not broken, they are just not fun to play against like Kylo isn't right? So we can stop crying now just like we did with Kylo?

Kylo is a big problem, it's just that not many people use him. He's a tiny hole in a balloon, it's not a problem right now and may never end up being a significant one.

In games that he's actually used in, it's not very fun and can ruin the game. It's just that he's not often used.

17 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

In games that he's actually used in, it's not very fun and can ruin the game. It's just that he's not often used.

This is true, and it's a good segue into just why it can be so tough to balance this game. The tensions against balance are numerous and subtle. An illustration:

Right now, neither A-wings nor TAPs are very popular or powerful in competition. There are several reasons for this, but we're going to put those aside for now.

In a meta where ISYTDS is popular, or might be popular, A-wings and TAPs will find it very difficult to come back. Even if all else that preyed on them went away, they still wouldn't come back, and it would be very difficult for people to make the connection to ISYTDS ... because they're already absent from the meta, so how can they be missed?

Even FFG makes this mistake quite a bit, not being able to look more than one layer deep to see things that drive the competitive game.

(Another huge example of this is Phantoms driving the PS wars. If you ask most players why PS went sky-high back pre-Phantom nerf, they'll tell you "Whisper." The actual culprit was Echo, but you have to look more than top-layer deep to see and understand why.)

Anyway, IMO cards like ISYTDS and BMST are very clearly an extension of an ongoing desire -- stemming from Organized Play, again IMO -- to shorten games. The fact that they can have broad and deep impact on the game, even though they are not themselves particularly popular, is either unexamined or FFG just doesn't really care that much.

2 hours ago, Lobokai said:

So let me know if I'm following... you're making a big deal and overreacting to what you perceive was people overreacting to something that wasn't a big deal.

TLTs aren't fun. Any idiot newb can put 4 shots or more on target with no piloting skill required... there's little reward for flying well, little penalty for flying poorly. Same is said for mindlink. Similar for Kylo.

People complain about things they don't like. Especially on this internet thing.

if you think you've got some sort of basis for this trollish moral high ground you've randomly decided to put a flag on, please find the thread where everyone reached a consensus that Kylo would be winning tourneys or be a top table pilot.

I'll wait

I am very upset because i can't find that epic thread of 1000 pages filled with tears where everyone was going paranoid over Kylo (well not everyone, just the usual suspects). I ll try again tomorrow ;\

TLT's are not fun, Soontir token-stack-master wasn't fun, oldschool phantom wasn't fun. Regen isn't fun. Kylo isn't fun. Sooo, whats the point here? Should they nerf them so this very specific subgroup of whiners will stop crying? Should they not nerf them? If not, what was the purpose of all those endless crying threads?

Yes, I am standing on top my moral highground and yelling "I told you so crybabies, wheres Kylo now?". I d like to welcome all my fellow brothers that did so as well when all that crying was going on. We ll do so again when you get over the Attani Mindlink crying, and whatever the next whining fad is. Some people here need to be taught a lesson, they just bad at x-wing, like me

2 hours ago, haritos said:

I am very upset because i can't find that epic thread of 1000 pages filled with tears where everyone was going paranoid over Kylo (well not everyone, just the usual suspects). I ll try again tomorrow ;\

TLT's are not fun, Soontir token-stack-master wasn't fun, oldschool phantom wasn't fun. Regen isn't fun. Kylo isn't fun. Sooo, whats the point here? Should they nerf them so this very specific subgroup of whiners will stop crying? Should they not nerf them? If not, what was the purpose of all those endless crying threads?

Yes, I am standing on top my moral highground and yelling "I told you so crybabies, wheres Kylo now?". I d like to welcome all my fellow brothers that did so as well when all that crying was going on. We ll do so again when you get over the Attani Mindlink crying, and whatever the next whining fad is. Some people here need to be taught a lesson, they just bad at x-wing, like me

I don't really agree about TLT, but I understand the hatred it gets.

Phantom wasn't fun.

Having a ship that regenerates its health all game and ends up getting 40 points worth of shield upgrades off of one Astromech upgrade card isn't fun.

Neither is a ship with 3 health but is literally invincible.

Kylo is the most unfun thing possible, it's just that no one plays it.

Your attitude on game balance and complaining holds this game back. The point of this game is to enjoy it, so the idea that stating an opinion that something is an NPE is automatically invalid is ******* ludicrous.

I might add, kinda refreshing that a solid but unfun option gets passed by as much as it does. Well done X-Wing community

Called it correctly, though FFG doesn't listen to me...

On ‎02‎-‎02‎-‎2017 at 3:56 PM, Keffisch said:

You guys realize that the Decimator only has 4 Shields, and if he is using Kylo then he isn't boosting.

Right, RIGHT?

That means all guns on target and Decimators still crumble like wet paper, especially vs. alpha strike lists.

REPENT, the end is near the end is near.

Behold he is coming the destroyer of universes...

He shall be known as the Emperor of Palpatines. The C-3P0-0-0, the ruin of the meta. The End of X-wing.

And let us never forget Newton's 3rd law as he described it in the early X-wing forums:

For every whiner not enjoying playing against a list, there is a player sitting opposite him who enjoys it.

So basically, stop complaining about fun and unfun lists. It's zero sum. You might not like it, but the guy flying it does. And you are both equal in the eyes of the force.

2 minutes ago, haritos said:

And let us never forget Newton's 3rd law as he described it in the early X-wing forums:

For every whiner not enjoying playing against a list, there is a player sitting opposite him who enjoys it.

So basically, stop complaining about fun and unfun lists. It's zero sum. You might not like it, but the guy flying it does. And you are both equal in the eyes of the force.

Hmm, no that's not how that works.

If I like punching you in the face and you don't like it then I should carry on and you can't complain?

10 minutes ago, haritos said:

And let us never forget Newton's 3rd law as he described it in the early X-wing forums:

For every whiner not enjoying playing against a list, there is a player sitting opposite him who enjoys it.

So basically, stop complaining about fun and unfun lists. It's zero sum. You might not like it, but the guy flying it does. And you are both equal in the eyes of the force.

Not quite. There is such a thing as quality in games, and it can be argued regardless of how many people agree or disagree. Quality depends on the thing itself. It is not decided by fiat.

So if Kylo Ren is a card that brings down the quality of the game, it doesn't matter how often he is played or how many people disagree. That's not the argument. It is easy to gloss "not fun" as "low quality", since a good game is roughly the same as a game that is fun.

Another thing that I notice is that many believe that the game is good when there is a balanced competitive meta. This a category mistake, I believe, because a balanced meta is one way to achieve quality, but not the only way nor is it infallible. It is possible that Kylo Ren makes the quality of the game worse, while nudging balance towards a more desirable situation and hardly being played.

Haritos must come to X-Wing from something else other than war gaming, since he doesn't get that for some of this it's simply number crunching. Mathhammer. Look at survivability, ability to put shots on target, ability to do damage when shooting, mechanics that make the above more points efficient, and then compare values to other units. If something is able succeed at the above way above or way below expected values, point it out.

@haritos if I post about wanting the Gunboat and you disagree, yeah, I'm pushing a preference and it's all subjective and feel free to vehemently disagree. But if as a player I look at the game interaction of a very popular or consistently ignored ship and then post thus, you're trying to use trollish anger to bash objective math. It's not a very valid counter argument to metrics, and it's why you're earning a little ire from others too.

If on top of that I see a ship that is subverting points and mechanics and in using it I see others disliking it, it's simply good community social contract to point out the unit's downside and then not use it myself.

On 4/15/2017 at 3:36 PM, haritos said:

Come on guys, you totally failed to predict what an amazing card Attani Mindlink was when people talked about it

I actually made several attani-based lists (involving Kavil/Palob/torpedoless scout with title) around september and I have won a couple of local tournaments with it, documenting it with facebook posts But no one believed when I was praising attani as the best scum EPT. Until parattani started to dominate

3 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Hmm, no that's not how that works.

If I like punching you in the face and you don't like it then I should carry on and you can't complain?

You seriously compared a person flying the list he likes to punching you in the face? Like, on what grounds? Please retract that statement it's so inaccurate it hurts man.

lol @ please retract.. This is the internet, bud. Get used to being insulted.

1 hour ago, Lobokai said:

Haritos must come to X-Wing from something else other than war gaming, since he doesn't get that for some of this it's simply number crunching. Mathhammer. Look at survivability, ability to put shots on target, ability to do damage when shooting, mechanics that make the above more points efficient, and then compare values to other units. If something is able succeed at the above way above or way below expected values, point it out.

@haritos

I'm confused, cause it seems you are disagreeing on something but from what I'm reading I'm not sure what.

If you re talking about number crunching, well I completely agree that some aspects of the game come down to this. But my question was where was the number crunching on Kylo? People cried about him and now that he is out he hasn't defined the meta at all.

I'm not sure if we agree or disagree, please elaborate