22 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

I think that's where the difficulty comes in. Once your Reanimates are engaged, it's harder to get blight on the enemy attacking them. If you use Reanimate Archers, you are going to be forcing your Reanimates to suffer morale tests. And if your Reanimates are already engaged, you can't use the Carrion Lancer's ability because it only works on unengaged units.

I actually really like the War Crier for this reason. It forces Spearmen to use their fast, weaker attack if they want to hit them before they toss a panic token their way.

Well

A. Everyone is talking about the core set becuase that is all there is at the moment. What the game will be "later" isn't really pertent to the conversation. I assume, lots of things will be different/better/worse as a result of releases.

B. Its a common visual emparement, but you cannot protect a block of archers with a block of animates and maintain a target without exposing yourself to other flanking attacks. Its a "on paper" idea that is not practical inplay.

C. When facing skeletons YOU MUST ALWAYS TAKE INITIATIVE. There is no practical,logical or smart strategy in which you allow Reanimates to take an action before you, at least in the Core Set meta. This is because you are almost always going to be facing a 2-3 Panic Morale test after the first charge. If you havent learned that lesson yet, your facing poor opponents.

I do understand where your going withthe strategy, certainly a defense manuver with Skeletons is a very good way to stall and is more likely to result in a regeneration of a skeleton. I will definitly take your advice and try it in my next game, but I don't see it being particularly practical to stall with reanimates. The best way to make use of Reanimates is to assault the biggest, baddast units you can find on the field and panic them.

4 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

I imagine thats the point of their morale ability. Its not foolproof, but it does make the more nastier morale tests rather difficult to do.

Shoot into combat, they get a panic token, but long as you dont spam that it shouldnt be horrible for the skellies.

I should point out that shooting into melee incurs a severity one morale test, it does not give a panic token. This makes it ok to shoot into combat for the waiqar as their units are all steadfast.

13 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

Well

A. Everyone is talking about the core set becuase that is all there is at the moment. What the game will be "later" isn't really pertent to the conversation. I assume, lots of things will be different/better/worse as a result of releases.

B. Its a common visual emparement, but you cannot protect a block of archers with a block of animates and maintain a target without exposing yourself to other flanking attacks. Its a "on paper" idea that is not practical inplay.

C. When facing skeletons YOU MUST ALWAYS TAKE INITIATIVE. There is no practical,logical or smart strategy in which you allow Reanimates to take an action before you, at least in the Core Set meta. This is because you are almost always going to be facing a 2-3 Panic Morale test after the first charge. If you havent learned that lesson yet, your facing poor opponents.

I do understand where your going withthe strategy, certainly a defense manuver with Skeletons is a very good way to stall and is more likely to result in a regeneration of a skeleton. I will definitly take your advice and try it in my next game, but I don't see it being particularly practical to stall with reanimates. The best way to make use of Reanimates is to assault the biggest, baddast units you can find on the field and panic them.

A) Agreed. As there get to be more units and thus more choices to spend limited point budget we'll all have some interesting choices to make, until then most armies look a lot alike. What makes for a winning combo today I don't think is going to last very long.

B) Well you can tho. Mixing terrain and some other tactics, it's not exactly hard to keep a unit of archers back to be effective at what it's good at. Tho I will say it has been great fun driving cav through some archers and cutting them down when the opportunity has presented itself.... yummmm!

C) I don't quite grok. Player 1 passes between players. So to take 'initiative' has a few meanings. Sure you have the command dial to try and position the unit to activate ahead of your prey, but the player1/player2 dynamic mixed in with the likely turn that units will ultimately have the potential to drive home successfully also enters into it.

Just now, Orcdruid said:

I should point out that shooting into melee incurs a severity one morale test, it does not give a panic token. This makes it ok to shoot into combat for the waiqar as their units are all steadfast.

Oh? Totally missed that. That largely means theres no issue there. When drawing a single card its almost always a 2 or 3 severity anyway and their ability to make Doubt +1 severity makes it even LESS likely to impact them.

39 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

I actually really like the War Crier for this reason. It forces Spearmen to use their fast, weaker attack if they want to hit them before they toss a panic token their way.

I guess I don't get how you are using War Crier. Where is the bane token coming from that you are moving to the Spearman.

25 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Oh? Totally missed that. That largely means theres no issue there. When drawing a single card its almost always a 2 or 3 severity anyway and their ability to make Doubt +1 severity makes it even LESS likely to impact them.

Steadfast doesn't really matter here does it? None of the Doubt cards are severity one so they wouldn't trigger against humans when firing into combat either. Can you spend panic tokens to increase the severity of the morale test made when firing into combat or is it always severity 1 or can you only spend them during attacks?

50% of the deck is severity 1.
26.6% of the deck is severity 2.
23.3% of the deck is severity 3.

20% of the deck is Doubt (3 sev 2, 3 sev 3).
40% of the deck is Fear (8 sev 1, 2 sev 2, 2 sev 3).
40% of the deck is Confusion (7 sev 1, 3 sev 2, 2 sev 3).

14 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Can you spend panic tokens to increase the severity of the morale test made when firing into combat or is it always severity 1 or can you only spend them during attacks?

Reading Morale Test (53) in the rules, I don't think you can.

53.1: " When a unit suffers a morale test, that unit’s opponent draws a number of cards from the morale deck equal to the severity specified by the game effect that caused the test."

In this case, the game effect is a severity-1 morale test, so it's restricted to 1.

53.2: "During an attack, the severity of a morale test is equal to the number of morale ( ? ) icons and panic tokens spent."

It specifically mentions panic tokens when defining the severity of morale tests from an attack. Since it doesn't mention panic tokens for other morale tests, I don't think you can spend panic tokens during those tests.

You are able to use panic tokens to buff morale tests outside of attacks, check the section on Banes (12):

"• Panic: When a unit that has a panic token suffers a morale test, that token can be spent to increase the severity by one. Alternatively, when that unit is the defender of an attack, that token can be spent to cause the unit to suffer a morale test with a severity equal to the number of panic tokens and morale (?) icons spent."

4 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

Reading Morale Test (53) in the rules, I don't think you can.

53.1: " When a unit suffers a morale test, that unit’s opponent draws a number of cards from the morale deck equal to the severity specified by the game effect that caused the test."

In this case, the game effect is a severity-1 morale test, so it's restricted to 1.

53.2: "During an attack, the severity of a morale test is equal to the number of morale ( ? ) icons and panic tokens spent."

It specifically mentions panic tokens when defining the severity of morale tests from an attack. Since it doesn't mention panic tokens for other morale tests, I don't think you can spend panic tokens during those tests.

This is what makes me think that it may be possible to increase the severity of any morale test by spending panic tokens.

12.1: "• Panic: When a unit that has a panic token suffers a
morale test, that token can be spent to increase the
severity by one. Alternatively, when that unit is the
defender of an attack, that token can be spent to cause the
unit to suffer a morale test with a severity equal to the
number of panic tokens and morale (PANIC) icons spent."

13 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

This is what makes me think that it may be possible to increase the severity of any morale test by spending panic tokens.

12.1: "• Panic: When a unit that has a panic token suffers a
morale test, that token can be spent to increase the
severity by one. Alternatively, when that unit is the
defender of an attack, that token can be spent to cause the
unit to suffer a morale test with a severity equal to the
number of panic tokens and morale (PANIC) icons spent."

Reading that, I would absolutely say you could increase the severity of a morale test initiated by making ranged attacks at enemies engaged with allies.

1 hour ago, WWHSD said:

I guess I don't get how you are using War Crier. Where is the bane token coming from that you are moving to the Spearman.

Panic tokens are banes

9 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Panic tokens are banes

So where is it coming from?

8 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

Well

A. Everyone is talking about the core set becuase that is all there is at the moment. What the game will be "later" isn't really pertent to the conversation. I assume, lots of things will be different/better/worse as a result of releases.

Um, are you serious? I really don't have a polite way to say this, but that statement is stupid. I know it may be hard to believe, but these abilities were not created for just the core set. Pretty much every ability seems underwhelming right now, because duh...

The ability of Daqan units to get easy inspiration tokens seems mediocre at best, but once you start using a bunch of upgrades that exhaust, it's going to be huge. Complaining about abilities being lackluster right now is like watching the first movie in a trilogy and complaining that they don't wrap up all the plotlines.

7 hours ago, GoblinGuide said:

You are able to use panic tokens to buff morale tests outside of attacks, check the section on Banes (12):

"• Panic: When a unit that has a panic token suffers a morale test, that token can be spent to increase the severity by one. Alternatively, when that unit is the defender of an attack, that token can be spent to cause the unit to suffer a morale test with a severity equal to the number of panic tokens and morale (?) icons spent."

This is my understanding as well, anytime a morale test is initiated any available panic tokens and morale icons may be spent to increase its severity. And a morale test may be initiated during an attack, ranged or melee, by spending a morale icon or panic token. But note that so far there is nothing in the game that causes a morale check outside of initiating them with tokens and icons during an attack.

Any why they choose to name the tokens and icons differently is beyond me but it may become clear with time.

8 minutes ago, Soulless said:

But note that so far there is nothing in the game that causes a morale check outside of initiating them with tokens and icons during an attack.

Making a ranged attacked against a unit engaged with an ally causes that ally to perform a severity one morale test.

1 minute ago, WWHSD said:

Making a ranged attacked against a unit engaged with an ally causes that ally to perform a severity one morale test.

Indeed, for some reason I've always read it as they gain a token! I stand corrected!

13 minutes ago, Soulless said:

Indeed, for some reason I've always read it as they gain a token! I stand corrected!

So did the guy that demoed the game for me. There was a lot about morale and panic tokens he got wrong though.

4 hours ago, TallTonyB said:

Um, are you serious? I really don't have a polite way to say this, but that statement is stupid. I know it may be hard to believe, but these abilities were not created for just the core set. Pretty much every ability seems underwhelming right now, because duh...

The ability of Daqan units to get easy inspiration tokens seems mediocre at best, but once you start using a bunch of upgrades that exhaust, it's going to be huge. Complaining about abilities being lackluster right now is like watching the first movie in a trilogy and complaining that they don't wrap up all the plotlines.

No one is arguing this is the case, the topic isn't about what regeneration or the game for that matter will be, it is what regeneration is today. There will be releases 3 years from now as well, but it makes no difference to us today, so why would we discuss that? should "the next wave" have any impact on the current opinion of an ability, tactic or mechanic in our games today?

Yes I concede, the game mechanics will be further expanded in the future and opinions will change, how does that improve the game I will have today?

Regenerate today, in the current meta which is the core, is weak. Will it get better? I'm sure of it? In fact, upon some discussion I would say there is cause to do further testing. We are after all, exploring the game, discussing it, trying to figure it out (aka using the forums for the purpose its designed). No reason to get rude and start name calling because you disagree. Make your case, we'll discuss.. politely.

On 4/15/2017 at 6:51 AM, BigKahuna said:

"here is some free ****" mechanic. Of all the the things I loved about my first experiance, this stood out as something that just didn't belong at all. I don't get the point of it.

The point is that it will be good when the game is actually out. Thats why it belongs. You say you're just talking about the core meta, but calling something a "**** mechanic", and not getting the point of it is not talking about the core set. Check what you typed before you try to get belligerent.

1 minute ago, TallTonyB said:

The point is that it will be good when the game is actually out. Thats why it belongs. You say you're just talking about the core meta, but calling something a "**** mechanic", and not getting the point of it is not talking about the core set. Check what you typed before you try to get belligerent.

You missed the quotation marks, its changes the sentence a good bit

15 minutes ago, TallTonyB said:

The point is that it will be good when the game is actually out. Thats why it belongs. You say you're just talking about the core meta, but calling something a "**** mechanic", and not getting the point of it is not talking about the core set. Check what you typed before you try to get belligerent.

Clicking the quote button and then deriving a different meaning ... very internet. While the FFG forum is the internet, the community here is above this sort of thing. For clarity, I don't think its "a **** mechanic", I said its a "Here is some free **** mechanic". While I shouldn't curse on the forums, I think people understand that I was just adding some humor to my post.

I don't really understand why it makes you angry, we are just having a discussion, challenging each others positions, discussing options and possibilities.

While I completely agree that the game will change over time I don't see how that will really help regeneration. The core issue with the mechanic is the damage output of even the most basic unit in this game. The only model in the core set that isn't threat 2 base is the carrion lancer. With the readily available rerolls it is very easy for units to kill a whole tray of defense 1 figures. This isn't a "core set" issue it is a game mechanic issue. As long as every unit is running around doing 2+ damage per hit regeneration will be mediocre. I doubt we'll see the core mechanics of the game change. And, to me, that is what has to happen for regeneration to shine.

4 minutes ago, DaShamrockKid said:

While I completely agree that the game will change over time I don't see how that will really help regeneration. The core issue with the mechanic is the damage output of even the most basic unit in this game. The only model in the core set that isn't threat 2 base is the carrion lancer. With the readily available rerolls it is very easy for units to kill a whole tray of defense 1 figures. This isn't a "core set" issue it is a game mechanic issue. As long as every unit is running around doing 2+ damage per hit regeneration will be mediocre. I doubt we'll see the core mechanics of the game change. And, to me, that is what has to happen for regeneration to shine.

Time will tell, but the core mechanic doesn't need to change for regeneration to become much more potent. Imagine some ability or effect that allows a tray to be returned to a unit with a single model in it.

The problem I guess is the fact that the other factions infantry is almost as fragile and vulnerable as the reanimates and without any regeneration at all. Boosting it too much will unbalance the cannon fodder so in the end its probably best if it stays a slight and very situational ability that will only come into huge play occasionally.

We also get necromancers which require the skill action and runes but will regenerate any unit its placed within.

@DaShamrockKid As has been stated in other forums the undead is very much a faction of synergy. This is just as true with regenerate. On it's own it may be nothing more than a delaying mechanic, but when paired with the defense modifier it gets so much better. Given that damage output is usually 4 or 6, the defense modifier means that you should always have empty slots to regen into and a good amount of the time won't even lose a tray.