It's Biggs with R4-D6 and Integrated Astromech.

Gold Squadron Y-Wing with R3-A2, BTL-A4, and TLT.

Miranda with TLT, Sabine, Extra Munitions, Cluster Mines, Thermal Detonators, and Advanced SLAM.

A friend started this discussion at the FLGS about this list. What counters it? It's kind of the best list in game.

I suggested a few things, any sort of strong, beefy 4 ship list like quad B-Wing, quad FCS. Or G1-A's, or U-Wings, or Special Forces TIE Fighters.

In a similar vein, quad Mindlink Mangler Sycks or quad Protectorates with Mindlink and Autothrusters. Your ships would be reasonably defensive and could survive at least one bomb probably, and would remain very effective once they've been reduced to a trio.

Triple TIE/D's with Ion Cannons should be able to burn down Biggs and then continually punish Miranda with constant ionization.

Double Regen would work. Norra Miranda or Corran Miranda. Just kill Biggs and beat your opponent at his own regen game.

What current meta staples can match it?

Honestly, this list looks pretty average to me, as long as someone else than Heaver flies it.

The damage Output seems to be rather low.

In my meta there are a lot of high damage attacks at the moment, so most probably Biggs would be gone very early. Just kill the stresshog afterwards and you'll be fine to win it by points.

8 zs!!!

A hammer

Flying better than your opponent. In my (9 months!) experience, being a better pilot in terms of predicting and visualising where ships will be up to 3 turns in the future makes far more of a difference to the outcome than which list is being flown.

There are some match ups where one list should win easily and some where dice results change the outcome, but player skill is the biggest factor.

Yeah there's nothing especially tough about this, just a couple of things you have to chew through early before you can start on Miranda.

Ordnance carriers that can TL Miranda could spike enough damage to take her out the first turn of shooting. Then it's just a Y-wing and Biggs.

I think any well designed list can beat it. I would get up in its face for some r1 shots at biggs. Miranda will then likely fly out of formation to slam bombs and the stresshog can be picked off. If it double stresses itself it has a difficult time turning around - use that to your advantage.

Miranda can regen but if you can k0 her in one turn, do it. If you get most of her hp down she will have to regen by shooting you. Keep your guns on her and she will go down. Miranda fails under pressure and being parallel chased. You do not want to get directly behind her obviously. Miranda is also weak to any turrets.

IMHO

I think the problem isn't so much matching it -- you can list-build a counter -- it's having a counter that remains effective against the variety of other top lists.

If you haven't faced off against this, it may not look like much, but it can be pretty brutal, and particularly effective against aces. Super Miranda puts out reliable damage (TLT), unavoidable damage (bombs, mines), plus she can regen or arc dodge, and a patient player will just plink you. You struggle to focus fire because of Biggs, while the Stresshog shuts down actions on approach. Miranda is the key; she's a 48-point fortress, so you're not likely to have a ship that will out-MoV her in the endgame; you have to kill her.

List building.

(1) High damage output -- to kill Biggs fast, then Miranda. So Rey, or a Kylo Swarm Leader, or something like that.

(2) Alpha strike -- use ordnance to avoid Biggs. 5 Black Sun soldiers with Homing missiles, guidance chips, and scavenger cranes ... the point being these things then struggle against other lists (Old Fennaroo, Imperial Trip Aces, etc).

(3) Ion. Miranda hates Ion. We figured that you could take a Paul Heaver trick and tweak this list to beat itself. Swap Thermal Detonators for Ion Bombs, swap the Stresshog's TLT for an Ion cannon, and you bump R4-D6 to M9-G8, and you retain most of the base list's tricks while being very effective against the mirror match.

(4) High HP. Tank the mines -- lots of Y's, Kanan/Biggs. The difficulty is these lists tend to have low agility and are then prey to the TLTs and death of a thousand little Miranda cuts.

(5) Swarms, maybe? A Cluster mine can pop multiple TIEs if not avoided, but one TIE doesn't break a swarm. Over time, though, this might be tough.

Tactics. All of these can be harder than they sound.

(1) High damage to focus fire Biggs. Pounce him, ignore the Stresshog, and Miranda is target number 2.

(2) Control range so you can shoot Miranda without having to shoot Biggs -- the challenge is to do it long enough to kill Miranda before she just flies away and regens.

(3) Pincer. Because Biggs, this list doesn't like to split up early, so it will focus on part of your list while the other part potentially can take Biggs from behind.

So the BTL title, does that mean only the primary arc for both weapons or is it you can't shot outside ur arc period. So even if you are using turret you still need to have them in arc.

BTL-A4 restricts the turret to the forward arc only.

In general I don't think the list is particularly strong in one area. It is a very all-comers list that has few bad matchups. The way it wins games is by having Miranda alive at the end of the game v. a couple or one ship. 48pts of Miranda is a tough ask to kill in the end game. So, it becomes a different question in my mind. Whatever list you take, you need to kill Miranda. If you kill her early the rest of the list folds. This means you need to range control against Biggs and take her out. Or smash Biggs early and then take Miranda down. There are specific squads that could do this but I think you are better off thinking of a strategy rather than a squad when you face lists that are tough - you can't change lists for every game!

I think the main weakness is against alpha strikes with ordnance (as someone pointed out above). If you can get the target locks on Miranda she will be struggling for the rest of the game to recoup the shields since she has to spend an attack die on it each time. Dual U-boats with torps plus a third ship will probaly give this list trouble. I know Paul Heaver beat exactly that kind of list in the final of Naboo open, but he managed to corner Fenn early and that made life easier. Fenn Rau probably struggles in general against Miranda/Stresshog so other options should probably be considered. I have noticed on List Juggler that Old Para seems to have moved from Parattani towards Asajj plus two torp boats. That kind of list would probably do OK against Miranda/Biggs/Stresshog.

I beat the homing missile version of this list against a very good player. And the list I was running was more casual than competitive, although I've had good results with it.

It was just a mixed 5 ship tie swarm. A fighter, two advanced, a striker, and a special forces. All of them ps3 or less.

Blocking was key. Also I had a fair amount of hit points at mid to high agility which helped.

9 minutes ago, markcsoul said:

I beat the homing missile version of this list against a very good player. And the list I was running was more casual than competitive, although I've had good results with it.

It was just a mixed 5 ship tie swarm. A fighter, two advanced, a striker, and a special forces. All of them ps3 or less.

Blocking was key. Also I had a fair amount of hit points at mid to high agility which helped.

I think bombs are a significantly better version of the list, though.

The thing is Paul lose matches to the following, bad dice rolls and people that create opportunities in a game. If you want to watch something amazing this is a bit older of a game but you can see Dallas just about pull it off with a simple Tie Swarm. I know with worlds, tournys and current meta spam being TLT/Bombs/K-wing, but mastering flying is so much more important. Dallas is still playing swarm and I would not be surprised if a 5-7 ship swarm comes back and rocks people yet again.

3 minutes ago, Cubanboy said:

The thing is Paul lose matches to the following, bad dice rolls and people that create opportunities in a game. If you want to watch something amazing this is a bit older of a game but you can see Dallas just about pull it off with a simple Tie Swarm. I know with worlds, tournys and current meta spam being TLT/Bombs/K-wing, but mastering flying is so much more important. Dallas is still playing swarm and I would not be surprised if a 5-7 ship swarm comes back and rocks people yet again.

Dallas has not played Swarm since World's I think where he had a very tough run. He's been running triple crack defenders at tourneys.

Also, the mechanics of the list above are a whole different animal.

Not faced this list but i've faced variations and all the ships (not at the same time).

Like others have said, knock Biggs out, then take your pick. The Y-wing will be picking you off while you go after Miranda. Everyone is raving about the "power" of advanced slam (I personally love SLAM and was trying to find lots of ways to use it before Sabine came out) but has anyone tried blocking Miranda?

Intel Agent, Cassian or if you can hit the bump Bo Shek. If you block Miranda, she loses that action, can't fly by bomb you. She can go for the thermal det next round, but you'd have already moved.

A swarm might be an interesting thought, this bomber list (and several out there) were designed to fight the high PS high agility Aces (small numbers of low hit point ships), free guaranteed damage so the mountain of green dice doesn't come into play. Big ships will suffer against bomb positioning but how about tanking the damage instead? He beat a double jump/Fenn build but how about triple jumps? 27 hit points (potential) is a lot to chew through even with 4 bombs.

Swarms can beat anything if flown correctly. They don't top the meta because it takes extreme amounts of concentration, if you screw up you loose.

3 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

BTL-A4 restricts the turret to the forward arc only.

thanks

23 minutes ago, Jesse ROE Games said:

Swarms can beat anything if flown correctly. They don't top the meta because it takes extreme amounts of concentration, if you screw up you loose.

They don't top the meta for more reasons than this.

On 4/15/2017 at 8:49 AM, Sixter said:

I think the main weakness is against alpha strikes with ordnance (as someone pointed out above). If you can get the target locks on Miranda she will be struggling for the rest of the game to recoup the shields since she has to spend an attack die on it each time. Dual U-boats with torps plus a third ship will probaly give this list trouble. I know Paul Heaver beat exactly that kind of list in the final of Naboo open, but he managed to corner Fenn early and that made life easier. Fenn Rau probably struggles in general against Miranda/Stresshog so other options should probably be considered. I have noticed on List Juggler that Old Para seems to have moved from Parattani towards Asajj plus two torp boats. That kind of list would probably do OK against Miranda/Biggs/Stresshog.

What is Old Para's 'Asajj 2 torp boats' list?

On 4/15/2017 at 4:00 AM, Gilarius said:

Flying better than your opponent. In my (9 months!) experience, being a better pilot in terms of predicting and visualising where ships will be up to 3 turns in the future makes far more of a difference to the outcome than which list is being flown.

And as someone who's been playing competitively for five years (since Wave 1 pre-releases), I can confidently say that the lists being flown are at least as influential as the decisions made on table, and perhaps even more important. Though, I suppose this only applies to larger and higher-level events, like Regionals, Nationals, and System Opens. If you're winning out, you can bet from about Round 3 and onward your opponent is visualizing their approaches a few turns in advance and that they won't make any stupid mistakes. They know their lists strengths, your lists weaknesses, and how they want the engagement to look like--just like you do. In just the past three years I've played in a dozen Regionals/Nationals, and I can probably count on my hands the amount of games where I made an on-table decision that shocked my opponent or vice versa, and even in those instances not all of them significantly swung the outcome of the game. I'm not saying that games always "go chalk," but more often than not they do when high-level players meet. And when they don't follow chalk, it's sometimes dice and not decisions that account for the "upset."

For casual games and Seasonal Kit tournaments, inexperienced players will likely make big mistakes or poor strategic approaches that can be more influential on the game's outcome than the list match-up, of course, but I wouldn't say this is true at more competitive events.

Palp ace would have done well against it, but palp was nerfed so they are hard to play against tlt.

On 4/15/2017 at 2:45 AM, Schu81 said:

Honestly, this list looks pretty average to me, as long as someone else than Heaver flies it.

I'll take that as a compliment, as I used the same list to win a 300+ system open with it.

On 4/15/2017 at 0:02 AM, Turbo Toker said:

I suggested a few things, any sort of strong, beefy 4 ship list like quad B-Wing, quad FCS. Or G1-A's, or U-Wings, or Special Forces TIE Fighters.

In a similar vein, quad Mindlink Mangler Sycks or quad Protectorates with Mindlink and Autothrusters. Your ships would be reasonably defensive and could survive at least one bomb probably, and would remain very effective once they've been reduced to a trio.

Triple TIE/D's with Ion Cannons should be able to burn down Biggs and then continually punish Miranda with constant ionization.

Double Regen would work. Norra Miranda or Corran Miranda. Just kill Biggs and beat your opponent at his own regen game.

While in a vacuum, those list are strong against Bigg Miranda's House. In play it will still come down to piloting. Knowing about the options Miranda has to bomb and making good engagements goes alot farther than the list your flying.

While Duncan ends up in a bombing trap, he plays this game so well, even with a hard match up. Take notes from him.