It seems to me that for any set number of minions, the more separate groups you bunch them into, the more dangerous they are for players to face. I have a number of reasons in mind:

(1) Action economy: Four groups of three minions get twice as many actions/maneuvers as two groups of six.

(2) The dice: The system favors rolling more dice over upgrading dice. Adding minions to a group upgrades dice until you reach a certain point; adding more groups always adds more dice.

(3) Generally low defense scores: Piggybacking off #2, an average PC has defense 1 and might upgrade incoming attacks once or twice. A single stormtrooper will hit that target about 45% of the time. That isn't bad odds.

(4) Soak: A minion group only applies its soak once to each hit. So 16 damage against a stormtrooper group will kill two stormtroopers. Against individual stormtroopers, it takes 11 damage per man to kill them.

There are a few factors that run counter to these (like PCs with incredibly high soak, if your group has one of those) but overall it seems pretty clear. Am I missing something?

7 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

(1) Action economy: Four groups of three minions get twice as many actions/maneuvers as two groups of six.

(2) The dice: The system favors rolling more dice over upgrading dice. Adding minions to a group upgrades dice until you reach a certain point; adding more groups always adds more dice.

Common mistake. Two groups of six bucketheads will each have an attack pool of YYYGG (five greens for the 6-1 skill ranks the minions get, plus 3 upgrades for the minion's ability score). Four groups of three will have a pool of YYG (three greens for the minion's ability score and two 3-1 upgrades for skill ranks). Someone else will have to do the math on whether 4 attacks at YYG is better than two attacks at YYYGG.

7 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

(3) Generally low defense scores: Piggybacking off #2, an average PC has defense 1 and might upgrade incoming attacks once or twice. A single stormtrooper will hit that target about 45% of the time. That isn't bad odds.

A single stormtrooper attacks at GGG. PCs can't upgrade incoming attacks because PCs don't get the Adversary talent. There are precious few (if any) talents that PCs casn use to upgrade the difficulty of an enemy's attack against them. Combat is not an opposed skill check, BTW, which may be your mistake. The difficulty (purples) is determined by range, with certain factors adding setbacks (and, rarely, additional purples).

7 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

(4) Soak: A minion group only applies its soak once to each hit. So 15 damage against a stormtrooper group will kill two stormtroopers. Against individual stormtroopers, it takes 10 damage per man to kill them.

Another common mistake. It takes 11 to kill or knock out a single stormtrooper, and 16 to kill two of them. You have to exceed Wound Threshold, not reach it.

8 minutes ago, ShadoWarrior said:

A single stormtrooper attacks at GGG. PCs can't upgrade incoming attacks because PCs don't get the Adversary talent. There are precious few (if any) talents that PCs casn use to upgrade the difficulty of an enemy's attack against them.

Yes, I knew that. I was assuming a typical PC with some experience could have one or two ranks of Dodge or Sidestep.

9 minutes ago, ShadoWarrior said:

Common mistake. Two groups of six bucketheads will each have an attack pool of YYYGG (five greens for the 6-1 skill ranks the minions get, plus 3 upgrades for the minion's ability score). Four groups of three will have a pool of YYG (three greens for the minion's ability score and two 3-1 upgrades for skill ranks). Someone else will have to do the math on whether 4 attacks at YYG is better than two attacks at YYYGG.

I also knew that. It seems fairly obvious to me, without math, that 4 YYG attacks will do more damage than two YYYGG attacks. You're also not factoring in the maneuvers.

10 minutes ago, ShadoWarrior said:

Another common mistake. It takes 11 to kill or knock out a single stormtrooper, and 16 to kill two of them. You have to exceed Wound Threshold, not reach it.

Good, thanks, that was an error.

If you send a group of 6 Minions at the PC's then they will loose dice from the very first hit they take. On the other hand 15 troopers in a single group will maintain its superior dice pool (PPPAA) far longer.

Those 15 troops will Crit far more often without inflicting as many wounds too, which can be a very useful tactic for GM's. Putting narrative effects onto the PC's can create interesting stories that don't always leave the group unconscious on the ground.

Edit: So it depends what you want from the encounter, lots of targets with high wounds for PC's or less targets but Crits for the PC's

2 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

Yes, I knew that. I was assuming a typical PC with some experience could have one or two ranks of Dodge or Sidestep.

Most PCs don't have either of those talents. Not in a diverse party anyway.

2 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

I also knew that. It seems fairly obvious to me, without math, that 4 YYG attacks will do more damage than two YYYGG attacks. You're also not factoring in the maneuvers.

4 YYG attacks will do more damage ... if they hit. You have a better chance to get hits with the YYYGG attacks.

1 minute ago, ShadoWarrior said:

4 YYG attacks will do more damage ... if they hit. You have a better chance to get hits with the YYYGG attacks.

Fine, if you insist, I'll do the math:

Accepting your argument that most PCs won't have Dodge, an armored PC will be hit about 61% of the time by a YYG attack: http://game2.ca/eote/?montecarlo=100000#proficiency=2&ability=1&difficulty=2&setback=1

The same target will be hit 84% of the time by a YYYGG attack: http://game2.ca/eote/?montecarlo=100000#proficiency=3&ability=2&difficulty=2&setback=1

So the mean total damage from a round of shooting will be roughly 24 from the four groups of three, 16 from two groups of six. I'm leaving out extra successes, but that won't change the figure very much. Critical hits will differ, though, as Buxton points out...

6 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

Those 15 troops will Crit far more often without inflicting as many wounds too, which can be a very useful tactic for GM's. Putting narrative effects onto the PC's can create interesting stories that don't always leave the group unconscious on the ground.

Good point, that's useful if you want to get some crits in for some reason.

---

Now, one thing that's relevant here is that groups of 3 are actually some of the least effective groups, because they don't add dice. I don't think we need to go through the calculations to be confident that 12 individual stormtroopers would be much more lethal than two groups of 6.

2 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

Those 15 troops will Crit far more often without inflicting as many wounds too, which can be a very useful tactic for GM's.

15 minions in a cluster**** have a LOT more staying power than a group of 6, but that's all. They inflict the same amount of damage. If the choice is 3x groups of 5, or 1x group of 15, I'd go with the 3x5, to get the two extra attacks per turn. Plus three groups of five are way, way less vulnerable to a grenade attack.

5 minutes ago, ShadoWarrior said:

15 minions in a cluster**** have a LOT more staying power than a group of 6, but that's all. They inflict the same amount of damage. If the choice is 3x groups of 5, or 1x group of 15, I'd go with the 3x5, to get the two extra attacks per turn. Plus three groups of five are way, way less vulnerable to a grenade attack.

Minions don't have to all be engaged to be part of the same group... like I said though, it depends on what your trying to achieve, Laying 2 or 3 crits on every PC can tell a really interesting story of hardship as they spend a week marching through dense jungle with no supplies. If I dumped a huge pile of wounds on them then it's much harder to continue on.

Per RAW perhaps they don't all have to be mutually engaged, but I feel it's abusive of the rules to allow the tactical advantage of being split up without suffering the game mechanical "penalty" of being split. Not a big fan of "have your cake and eat it too". If those stormtroopers are spread out all over that long-range-width Imperial SD hangar bay they're also in separate groups. Yeah, I know about radios and tactical command and control. I'm also familiar with the proven concept that it's exponentially harder to directly control more than 5 subordinates (or in scale-invariant military terms, 5 directly subordinated units).

Can you please explain to me how a group of 15 can inflict more crits than a group of 6? Other than by lasting longer?

On paper a group of 6 and 15 are identical, the difference is in how long it takes for the dice pool to change. A group of 15 may have 2 turns of shooting at full capacity before the group is less than 6. That's unlikely if the group starts at 6, they will likely loose members in the first round, possibly before they even act. So the 15 ensure you actually get to roll a 5 dice pool at least once.

As for the range thing I would rarely have them outside of Short of each other, otherwise bookkeeping gets too hard. But that way a grenade is only going to hit 4 or 5 instead of everyone.

Its worth nothing that stormies in that size group really is a very dangerous opponent without heavily armed PC's. Large groups work better for mobs, such as villagers or pack animals which provide much easier foes. Give them non combat skills, perhaps with Vigilance, and they become a soft meat shield to distract and occupy the PC's while other things happen.

BTW, while I've got your attention, the Blast from a grenade affects each and every single minion in a group, right? Subtracting soak first, for each and every minion?

1 minute ago, ShadoWarrior said:

BTW, while I've got your attention, the Blast from a grenade affects each and every single minion in a group, right? Subtracting soak first, for each and every minion?

That's the general consensus, and how I run it. Effectively if the damage of the grenade is higher than the WT and Soak of a single minion then they all die/are unconscious instantly.

Tge rules are vague to allow situations where that wouldn't make sense, such as more spread groups or terrain that protects some of the group.

I should clarify, the Blast effect must be triggered to have that outcome we were talking about, just a hit from a grenade isn't enough IMHO.

Of course. 2 Advantage, per RAW. Which leads to those highly bizarre occasions where the target dies but everyone around him is utterly unscathed. Narratively, he becomes the grenade dummy who falls on the bomb to save his squadmates.

11 minutes ago, ShadoWarrior said:

Of course. 2 Advantage, per RAW. Which leads to those highly bizarre occasions where the target dies but everyone around him is utterly unscathed. Narratively, he becomes the grenade dummy who falls on the bomb to save his squadmates.

Well garbage like that does happen in movies all the time....

Larger groups of minions are better because of convenience:

1. Less bookkeeping,

2. streamlined initiative,

3. groups of 10+ are going to keep their 5 dice for a few rounds, unless AUTO,

4. defeating loads of opponents will make the players feel good.

They don't need to be effective, because there are always going to be more, just as many as the GM needs.

They can "defend" against Blast by spreading out, regardless of group size.

When I play with all my groups (both with me as GM and otherwise) we have always done soak applies individually to each minion in the group rather than once to the group as a whole. I definitely prefer it that way and it keeps the challenge but with the benefit of less bookkeeping.

13 hours ago, ShadoWarrior said:

Common mistake. Two groups of six bucketheads will each have an attack pool of YYYGG (five greens for the 6-1 skill ranks the minions get, plus 3 upgrades for the minion's ability score). Four groups of three will have a pool of YYG (three greens for the minion's ability score and two 3-1 upgrades for skill ranks). Someone else will have to do the math on whether 4 attacks at YYG is better than two attacks at YYYGG.

Assuming the following base situation: The Stormtroopers are shooting at Medium Range (dd) with a Blaster Rifle (9 DMG, 3Crit) at a PC with 5 Soak.

Situation 1: 2 Groups à 6 Stormtroopers : YYYGGDD results in (mean value): 3.75 successes, 1 failure, 3.25 advantages, 1.5 disadvantages EACH

Situation 2: 4 Groups à 3 Stormtroopers: YYG results in (mean value): 2.3 successes, 1 failure, 1.96 advantages, 1.5 disadvantages EACH

This means:

Situation 1 will deal at mean: 2x (9 + 3.75 -1 -5 ) DMG and 3.25 -1.5 Advantages = 13.5 DMG and 2x 1,75 Adv (which does not trigger the crit so i drop this value )

Situation 2 will deal at mean: 4x ( 9+2.3 -1 -5)DMG and 1.96-1.5 Advantages = 21.2 DMGand 2x 0,46 Adv (which is not even one advantage)

The dice probability can be seen at anydice.com

No, you're not missing anything as far as damage goes. If your objective is to put the party over their wound threshold then having a load of individual minions is the "correct answer." They will deal more damage than minion groups. If you play the roleplaying game this way you should switch to Imperial Assault instead.

The objective of Edge, Age, and F&D is telling a collective story and so putting the PCs over their wound thresholds often goes against this objective (unless it's the point in the story where the group gets captured (which there are better ways to handle than crafting a fight where they get put over threshold)). The minions' role in the story is usually to slow down the PCs, run interference for the bad guy, and display how awesome the PCs are as the PCs mow them down. It is this role the rules for grouping minions support them well.

The assumption that grouping minions together's primary purpose is to increase lethality is incorrect. It isn't, it's for ease of bookkeeping/dice rolling for the GM and to give the PCs a feeling they've heroically overcome large numbers of opponents.

If you want to steamroll PCs and be lethal, don't group those 15 Stormtroopers at all, keep them separate they'll likely smear your group. A GGG dice pool may not be great but the rolls of 15 separate pools is going to stack up multiple successful pools every round, and at 9 damage + on each one, that's going to sting.

Most PC groups are going to need to be autofire-centric and roll well to address 15 separate target groups, particularly if you put some at long range in cover, as that's who they'll have to target.

The skill rank thing is to not have it be completely absurd how several minions grouped together aren't more effective.

If you want to challenge with minion groups, given them all autofire weapons......

Frankly, in a combined-arms military with the size, proficiency, and disregard for life that the Empire has, it's ridiculously easy to wipe out a party. Resistance is always met with overwhelming force, and the PCs lack the resources to call that bluff. Stormtroopers are getting hammered? They call for another platoon. A protracted engagement develops with the reinforcements taking heavy casualties? Platoon leader calls for AT-ST support. PCs manage to somehow get a mobility kill on the AT-ST, then attempt to escape & evade? Air support scrambles and starts levelling the target area. TPK, and just another day's work for the Imperial war machine.

In my view, increasing lethality isn't necessary because the game isn't meant to be adversarial in that way. If that's the style that you & your players like, I believe you can expect to run into these sorts of problems with some frequency. If your PCs aren't finding minions to be challenging enough then perhaps you should engage them more creatively or, as the pirate suggested, upgrade their equipment.

My preference is to put as many minions in a group as the most combat centric character can kill on an average roll. Pile on the crits with advantage and you can kill a lot of minions with a critical one vibrókatana for instance (i've got 2 pcs spec'd that ways, one of them joined the game two years in and I let him start with comparable xp and gear... a gank marauder doctor, and his *first attack roll* (for ffg star wars, not just first for the session) he got a critical hit with a 158 on the percentile role killed a giant sand cap in what would later become the rancor pit in Jabba's palace, anyway this character tears through minions like tissue paper due to crits so I use his average to determine how many minions to put in a group, so with a 3- 4 minions per minion group they will have 2 yellow and a green or 3 Yellow for an attack pool, which is suitable and they go down in 1 hit there abouts)

Raw you can only Crit once per hit, so only one minion can be removed in that method unless you hit multiple times in a round. Of course your method is a lot more fun for the players though

normally paying extra advantage to "crit again" just adds +10 to the original crit percentile roll, I was expecting it to kill an extra minion in a minion group, can't remember where I got that.

On 15.4.2017 at 1:08 AM, ShadoWarrior said:

15 minions in a cluster**** have a LOT more staying power than a group of 6, but that's all. They inflict the same amount of damage. If the choice is 3x groups of 5, or 1x group of 15, I'd go with the 3x5, to get the two extra attacks per turn. Plus three groups of five are way, way less vulnerable to a grenade attack.

And in our group you would usually end up with 3 groups of 2, before those stormtroopers are even able to react. They then afterwards roll against: http://game2.ca/eote/?montecarlo=100000#proficiency=1&ability=2&challenge=1&difficulty=2&setback=4

Adjust the minion group size based on what your group will do, if your smaller groups will not sustain long enough, make them bigger, if you want some bullet sponges to just keep your group, make them even bigger, and if you need crits for lasting damage, bigger is as well the way to go, but if you want to overwhelm your group with lots of incoming fire or make them feel good about all the missed hits, make them small. That is exactly what the Core Rule Books recommend as well, a size of 3 or 4 minions per group will give you this experience and make the incoming hits against players far and few between. A good way to empower your players, lots of mid size groups are a good way to scare your players and a sergeant with a full squad and an autofire rifle is a good way to make your group really sweat, because now the squad leader can adjust his minion groups on the fly, has a giant meat shield which requires one hit per minion to get removed and gains extra attacks for his triumphs while dishing out hard with the autofire rifle AND protects his minions from PC autofire with the correct formation.

But it is really all about the right encounter design for the right group. And about how much time you want to waste for dice rolling as naturally bigger minion groups allow usually for faster combat resolutions as well.