During our first game a variation of the following situation came up (There wasn't actually a spearman unit looking like that, but it it's equivalent in other units which made it clear to me and my opponent that the golem would move exactly into the gap between the lancer and a friendly unit,):

Starting from situation in the first picture (A.jpg), the the Carrion Lancer does a shift and disengages leaving a 1 tray hole between it and the spearmen resulting in the second picture(B.jpg).

Then the Rune Golem charges using a move 2.

Would the Rune golem end up doing a successful charge as in picture 3(1.jpg) a successful charge as in picture 4(2.jpg), or failing to charge as in picture 5(3.jpg)?

If I interpret the rules correctly as soon as the front corner of the Rune Golem is in contact with the corner of the Carrion Lancer there is a Collision (18) and there would be a Squaring Off resulting in the situation in the thid picture, and a successful charge. Possibly 77.2 of the Squaring Off rules would make the fourth picture a legal option as well?

Or is the last picture correct and the golem fails to charge but ends up engaged with the Carrion Lancer on its flank?

A gentle bump since I believe this got buried in the back of the forum while pending approval and I'm really interested in how people interpret that situation.

If you end your movement touching an obstacle, you collide with that obstacle.

Enemy units are obstacles.

If you collide, the charge succeeds.

Only thing I'm not 100% on is how the squaring up would proceed and what the final position would be.

It would be impossible to fail a charge and end up engaged at the same time. Looking at this makes for a bit of interesting thoughts. Ill have a go at it.

Can two units exist side by side, edges touching, without being engaged or collided? I would assume no.

Which means that while the lancer is now exactly 1 tray away from the spearmen (speed-1 = 1 tray distance) the golem must further away from the spearmen, even if minuscule, but cannot exist exactly edge to edge with the spearmen. This means that if it moves straight forward, parallel to the front edge of the spearmen, it must collide with the lancer on the lancer's right flank, and would square up on its right edge.

Strictly raw, this can pose issues when two units tries to engage and square up against the same enemy unit along the same edge but I wouldn't take it that far.

To help us better clarify how the unit would square up, an overhead(directly) shot of the point of contact would be helpfull.

MY understanding is that your 4th picture is the correct result.

The rune golem collides with the spearmen as it moves along (the jigsaw pieces count as touching when it moves), however, during a charge, allies can overlap as long as no more than half of the mover's tray is still unobstructed.

By the narrowest possible margin, the corners of the golem and the lancer do NOT collide. The golem's jigsaw piece then connects with the lancer's jigsaw piece.

If the jigsaw pieces from the spearmen prevent squaring up correctly, then 77.5.i covers us and tells us that you slide back to the last legal position, but your charge still counts, you just fail to square up.

Squaring up still occurs despite the fact that it was your golems flank that collided with the carrion lancer, as I can't see any rules that prohibit that.

19 minutes ago, Torpid Rebel said:

MY understanding is that your 4th picture is the correct result.

The rune golem collides with the spearmen as it moves along (the jigsaw pieces count as touching when it moves), however, during a charge, allies can overlap as long as no more than half of the mover's tray is still unobstructed.

By the narrowest possible margin, the corners of the golem and the lancer do NOT collide. The golem's jigsaw piece then connects with the lancer's jigsaw piece.

If the jigsaw pieces from the spearmen prevent squaring up correctly, then 77.5.i covers us and tells us that you slide back to the last legal position, but your charge still counts, you just fail to square up.

Squaring up still occurs despite the fact that it was your golems flank that collided with the carrion lancer, as I can't see any rules that prohibit that.

A moving unit can overlap no more then one tray of an allied unit as long as the moving unit does not overlap the allied unit after its move. Its not the moving tray that counts but the ones being moved over.

The golem would not be able to move along the spearmen if it overlaps two or more or the spearmen trays. But i didnt take from the above example that the golem would in fact overlap the spearmen.

Where did you get the "half the movers tray" part though?

13 minutes ago, Soulless said:

A moving unit can overlap no more then one tray of an allied unit as long as the moving unit does not overlap the allied unit after its move. Its not the moving tray that counts but the ones being moved over.

The golem would not be able to move along the spearmen if it overlaps two or more or the spearmen trays. But i didnt take from the above example that the golem would in fact overlap the spearmen.

Where did you get the "half the movers tray" part though?

59.3 of RR:

"If the unit would overlap no more than a single tray of an allied unit during a move and does not overlap any part of that allied unit at the end of the move, that allied unit is not treated as an obstacle and does not cause a collision"

So, partly me misremembering rules, I'll admit that. However, if there's a second rank to the unit, and the moving unit passes through the unmoving unit, then effectively the moving unit can clip up to half of the unmoving unit's tray off the corner without touching either of the other trays. But I agree, I was remembering it incorrectly, as I wasn't aware that a single trayed unit could be moved through.

Outside of that, I agree with your assessment, as the rune golem would never touch more than a single tray's jigsaw pieces at a time, and so I believe that that 4th picture is still the correct outcome?

47 minutes ago, Torpid Rebel said:

MY understanding is that your 4th picture is the correct result.

The rune golem collides with the spearmen as it moves along (the jigsaw pieces count as touching when it moves), however, during a charge, allies can overlap as long as no more than half of the mover's tray is still unobstructed.

By the narrowest possible margin, the corners of the golem and the lancer do NOT collide. The golem's jigsaw piece then connects with the lancer's jigsaw piece.

If the jigsaw pieces from the spearmen prevent squaring up correctly, then 77.5.i covers us and tells us that you slide back to the last legal position, but your charge still counts, you just fail to square up.

Squaring up still occurs despite the fact that it was your golems flank that collided with the carrion lancer, as I can't see any rules that prohibit that.

Look at the first picture again, the golem is not perfectly square to the spearmen. Look under the golems elbow you can see from the mat showing through that he is at an angle away from them.

3 minutes ago, Orcdruid said:

Look at the first picture again, the golem is not perfectly square to the spearmen. Look under the golems elbow you can see from the mat showing through that he is at an angle away from them.

Well, if he collides with the carrion lancer's side, then it makes the question easier, if anything.

11 minutes ago, Torpid Rebel said:

59.3 of RR:

"If the unit would overlap no more than a single tray of an allied unit during a move and does not overlap any part of that allied unit at the end of the move, that allied unit is not treated as an obstacle and does not cause a collision"

So, partly me misremembering rules, I'll admit that. However, if there's a second rank to the unit, and the moving unit passes through the unmoving unit, then effectively the moving unit can clip up to half of the unmoving unit's tray off the corner without touching either of the other trays. But I agree, I was remembering it incorrectly, as I wasn't aware that a single trayed unit could be moved through.

Outside of that, I agree with your assessment, as the rune golem would never touch more than a single tray's jigsaw pieces at a time, and so I believe that that 4th picture is still the correct outcome?

Well, its my interpretation that the golem could clip as much as it may of a single tray of the spearmen but as soon as it overlaps a second tray ( total, doesnt matter if its one tray after the other) it would count as a collision and the rules for colliding apply.

2 minutes ago, Torpid Rebel said:

Well, if he collides with the carrion lancer's side, then it makes the question easier, if anything.

Agree, i was assuming the units in the pictures was supposed to be aligned as squarely as possible. If thats not the case, things should be much easier to figure out

31 minutes ago, Soulless said:

Agree, i was assuming the units in the pictures was supposed to be aligned as squarely as possible. If thats not the case, things should be much easier to figure out

They are indeed aligned as squarely as possible, I suspect that it is my poor camera angle that causes the distortion in the second picture. sorry about that!

Since the lancer shifted 1 back from the spearmen there should be a distance of exactly one tray between the lancer and the spearmen,

Top-down shot of the situation in picture two added, with an empty tray added to show the distance between lancer and spearmen after the shift-1 disengage.

8 minutes ago, fyrkant said:

They are indeed aligned as squarely as possible, I suspect that it is my poor camera angle that causes the distortion in the second picture. sorry about that!

Since the lancer shifted 1 back from the spearmen there should be a distance of exactly one tray between the lancer and the spearmen,

Alrite and in that case, I would assume the golem cannot sit between the lancer and spearmen without being engaged with the lancer.

And if that is true, the golem should technically be colliding with the lancer the moment their corners meet. Which should mean its up to the controlling player to square in according to your picture 3 or your picture 4. (where picture 3 is of course a much better alternative).

There is a complication with this though, if edge to edge with an enemy is considered engaged, wouldn't the same be true for allies? In which case the golem could not move along the spearmen without immediately colliding with them. Which is nonsense and I would never rule it that way but just for the sake of argument.

9 minutes ago, Soulless said:

Alrite and in that case, I would assume the golem cannot sit between the lancer and spearmen without being engaged with the lancer.

And if that is true, the golem should technically be colliding with the lancer the moment their corners meet. Which should mean its up to the controlling player to square in according to your picture 3 or your picture 4. (where picture 3 is of course a much better alternative).

There is a complication with this though, if edge to edge with an enemy is considered engaged, wouldn't the same be true for allies? In which case the golem could not move along the spearmen without immediately colliding with them. Which is nonsense and I would never rule it that way but just for the sake of argument.

Except the rules on movement allow for you to nudge a unit if no more than the connectors overlap. So technically the rune golem could be nudged to the side so that the connectors don't contact the spearmen anymore, then it would charge into the lancer and sqaure up to its side.

@fyrkant thanks for the picture. In case you are unclear as to why it would be the side and not your choice, it is because in order to get that choice you have to come in at an angle, since your edge comes in flat to the lancers edge, even though most of the golem is not in contact, you don't get that choice.

58 minutes ago, Orcdruid said:

Except the rules on movement allow for you to nudge a unit if no more than the connectors overlap. So technically the rune golem could be nudged to the side so that the connectors don't contact the spearmen anymore, then it would charge into the lancer and sqaure up to its side.

@fyrkant thanks for the picture. In case you are unclear as to why it would be the side and not your choice, it is because in order to get that choice you have to come in at an angle, since your edge comes in flat to the lancers edge, even though most of the golem is not in contact, you don't get that choice.

Yeah I would rule it this way at least.

It also occured to me that outside of deployment, there is only in combat that such tight formations of several units will happen as units square up and align as close together as possible. So using a little common sense and allowign adjustments for the slight margins of error that will occur with the tempaltes and accidental nudging should solve most issues that can occur dealing with millimeter precision.

6 hours ago, Soulless said:

Alrite and in that case, I would assume the golem cannot sit between the lancer and spearmen without being engaged with the lancer.

And if that is true, the golem should technically be colliding with the lancer the moment their corners meet.

You don't collide when you touch during a move. You collide when you OVERLAP during a move.

You collide AFTER moving if you are touching an obstacle. He would complete his movement.

2 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

You don't collide when you touch during a move. You collide when you OVERLAP during a move.

You collide AFTER moving if you are touching an obstacle. He would complete his movement.

Technically you halt movement when you overlap, then move to a position where you are touching. Then because you are touching you collide.

7 minutes ago, rowdyoctopus said:

Technically you halt movement when you overlap, then move to a position where you are touching. Then because you are touching you collide.

Let's not do this again.