Lucas's problem has largely been that Star Wars is an object he crafted that took on a life of his own while he lost interest. He saw too much of how the sausage was made to get caught up in the illusion and to him he just sees the technical application of film making tricks. When he returned to make more films decades later, he was returning to a universe that people had put far more thought into than he had ever intended and the prequels were made without really absorbing what the universe had become in his absence.

They're still kind of technically disastrous films, with confused storytelling and frustrated actors trying to work in a green void, but the big difference between I and VII is how much the creators of those films were invested in the fictional universe as a whole.

5 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

They're still kind of technically disastrous films, with confused storytelling and frustrated actors trying to work in a green void

Says you.

That is what I said; yes.

25 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

There is a good reason that Revenge of The Sith is #3 in my all time favorites list.

V, IV, III, VII, VI, II, I. In that order.

You forgot Rogue One!

Those air speeder things with the sticks they drag along are meant to attract sand worms to certain spots. The red dust is the spice melange.

The new Star Wars isn't a remake of Empire Strikes Back, it's a remake of Dune.

It all makes sense now.

1 hour ago, VanderLegion said:

You forgot Rogue One!

I keep trying to.

34 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

I keep trying to.

Whaaaaaaaaaat?

V, IV, VI, R1.

As far as I'm concerned, there are no other Star Wars films.

2 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

V, IV, VI, R1.

As far as I'm concerned, there are no other Star Wars films.

I like TFA but I can respect your opinion, I admit that TFA has flaws.

1 hour ago, Turbo Toker said:

Those air speeder things with the sticks they drag along are meant to attract sand worms to certain spots. The red dust is the spice melange.

The new Star Wars isn't a remake of Empire Strikes Back, it's a remake of Dune.

It all makes sense now.

There is actually a remake of Dune coming I hear, from the guy who did Enemy and Arrival. All I can say is good luck.

9 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

You forgot Rogue One!

I don't count it in the main saga, but that's nothing against it.

I liked it quite a bit, but it had a couple of genuine sticking points that keep it on par if not slightly below Return of The Jedi for me.

1 hour ago, Captain Lackwit said:

I don't count it in the main saga, but that's nothing against it.

I liked it quite a bit, but it had a couple of genuine sticking points that keep it on par if not slightly below Return of The Jedi for me.

I absolutely loved Rogue One. It is the best fanfilm ever.

Without reading another 9 pages:

you are complining that The Last Jedi might be too much like what many, most (maybe), consider the best Film (notice the difference between film and movie) of the franchise?!?!?!!!?!?!?

[insert Wookiee curse words here]

[and here]

[insert halfhearted response to rant about previously misused/misquoted furry language here]

7 minutes ago, Rakky Wistol said:

(notice the difference between film and movie)

...uh...one is accepted by my spelling corrector while the other is not?

3 hours ago, Rakky Wistol said:

Without reading another 9 pages:

you are complining that The Last Jedi might be too much like what many, most (maybe), consider the best Film (notice the difference between film and movie) of the franchise?!?!?!!!?!?!?

[insert Wookiee curse words here]

[and here]

[insert halfhearted response to rant about previously misused/misquoted furry language here]

Yes I am complaining. I've seen that movie/film. Why should I want to see them rip off one of my favorite movies only to fill it with modern awful film-making sensibilities? Why should I think it won't turn out exactly like ST:Into Darkness?

The 2014 Godzilla movie had a lot of what I felt was stuff ripped off from better movies. Stuff the director thought was cool so he copied it without really understanding why it was cool. That's the same guy who did Rogue One and I saw an attempt to copy other better rag tag soldiers on a mission tales without really understanding the "why" about the stuff he was trying to copy.

TFA is full of this sort of sensibility. It is different in that TFA is constantly reaching for unearned moments. TFA and even Rogue One were porcelain hamburgers.

A porcelain hamburger may appear as beautiful and appetizing as a real hamburger but you can't eat it. It won't nourish you. This trailer teased another porcelain hamburger. I want them to stop feeding us porcelain hamburgers.

11 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Yes I am complaining. I've seen that movie/film. Why should I want to see them rip off one of my favorite movies only to fill it with modern awful film-making sensibilities? Why should I think it won't turn out exactly like ST:Into Darkness?

The 2014 Godzilla movie had a lot of what I felt was stuff ripped off from better movies. Stuff the director thought was cool so he copied it without really understanding why it was cool. That's the same guy who did Rogue One and I saw an attempt to copy other better rag tag soldiers on a mission tales without really understanding the "why" about the stuff he was trying to copy.

TFA is full of this sort of sensibility. It is different in that TFA is constantly reaching for unearned moments. TFA and even Rogue One were porcelain hamburgers.

A porcelain hamburger may appear as beautiful and appetizing as a real hamburger but you can't eat it. It won't nourish you. This trailer teased another porcelain hamburger. I want them to stop feeding us porcelain hamburgers.

But to me, they weren't porcelain hamburgers. To me, TFA was a new chef trying his hands at a beloved recipe that had taken hits to its reputation due to the old chef getting a bit wired on what he put in. Yes, the recipe tastes like the old ones, but it had to to help prove he could provide the old recipe feel.

For Rogue One, I'm gonna drop the food metaphor because I'm not getting a good idea how to relate it to food. But anyway, Rogue One did fine in my mind giving us a group of Rag Tag soldiers. I loved the darkness Cassian brought to the idea of being a Rebel Agent, and how that drove him on this mission. K2 helped lighten the mood without being ridiculous like a Jar Jar, and actually got me to tear up a little during his final scene. Chirrut was our shining optimist, a man of faith who also lighten the mood along with his poetic movements of personal destruction. Baze was Chirrut's counter point, a man who lost his faith and had become pessimistic about the universe. Together they made a classic duo that worked for me. Next up is Bodhi, a normal guy trying to do what he thought was right. He wasn't a choosen one, or some bad-a soldier, or even royalty. But he did try his best, and that proved to be enough.

Finally, there is Jyn. I'll admit, she is probably the weakest for me, but I still understand her. She had no reason to fight for a cause, so she didn't. She had faced different forms of abandonment in her life that she was done trusting others. But she found something worth fighting for and people who were going to stick around even when things got tough. I see a bit of that in Rey as well, though she retains more optimism than Jyn did.

Wow...

I think someone said it a few pages earlier...

Star Wars fans are the worst fans.

14 minutes ago, KryatDragon said:

Wow...

I think someone said it a few pages earlier...

Star Wars fans are the worst fans.

I think they are the worst fans because they feel personally invested and that the creators (Lucas, Zahn, Kennedy, Abrams, etc) somehow owe them something.

Just because you: watched Star Wars in the theater as a kid (like me); collected every issue of the comics; owned every figure; read every book; watched the prequels as a kid (or an adult); hate Mary-Sues or love them; play X-Wing miniatures game; play Battlefront or any other SW video games;

Lucas, Disney and everyone in between owes you nothing.

For some that's hard to accept.

53 minutes ago, KryatDragon said:

Wow...

I think someone said it a few pages earlier...

Star Wars fans are the worst fans.

Are you sure about that? There are those fans who are vociferously defend the pile of crap that is TFA. When you have fans that will stand up and defend that kind of awful I'd think you've got some pretty good fans.

And are you really a "bad fan" for expecting creators not to deliver lazy scripts and shoddily directed and edited movies?

38 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

Lucas, Disney and everyone in between owes you nothing.

I'm owed a far better effort than what they've given me in TFA and what has been teased in TLJ. I'm owed far more than re-hashing the films that made me a fan if they want me to buy movie tickets.

19 hours ago, Verlaine said:

That's typically something an artist says: "I want viewers to look at my work and give it meaning," when asked about what their work is supposed to convey. But not every piece can do that. Star Wars, and in particular Revenge of the Sith, has that quality though. TFA less so, as a counterexample.

This I like. It reminds me of a quote from J.R.R. Tolkien in his forward to The Lord of the Rings:

Quote

I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring

I'll just add in addition to the purposed domination of the author, it also resides in literature professors struggling to create discussion, which is what really soured me on the whole "reading between the lines" thing. Sometimes the sky is just gray because it's about to effin rain, whether the protagonist is sad or not. This is another reason I roll my eyes practically every time it starts to rain in a movie. It's such an overused bit of symbolism.

I'll be honest, I could not get past the action and dialogue in RoTS to identify any such symbolism or artistry in the visuals. The plot was so contrived and hurried I didn't have time to sit back and enjoy it. Have never been inspired to rewatch it where I might be able to pick up on this stuff, though it's not something I'm generally inclined to notice anyway.

1 hour ago, BlodVargarna said:

I think they are the worst fans because they feel personally invested and that the creators (Lucas, Zahn, Kennedy, Abrams, etc) somehow owe them something.

Just because you: watched Star Wars in the theater as a kid (like me); collected every issue of the comics; owned every figure; read every book; watched the prequels as a kid (or an adult); hate Mary-Sues or love them; play X-Wing miniatures game; play Battlefront or any other SW video games;

Lucas, Disney and everyone in between owes you nothing.

For some that's hard to accept.

If I pay them expecting a good movie, game, book, and ect. Then I am indeed owed at least something of passing entertainment value, not to mention something consistent with the over all narrative of the 'brand' Star Wars.

23 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Are you sure about that? There are those fans who are vociferously defend the pile of crap that is TFA. When you have fans that will stand up and defend that kind of awful I'd think you've got some pretty good fans.

And are you really a "bad fan" for expecting creators not to deliver lazy scripts and shoddily directed and edited movies?

I'm owed a far better effort than what they've given me in TFA and what has been teased in TLJ. I'm owed far more than re-hashing the films that made me a fan if they want me to buy movie tickets.

1. Remakes are all the rage in Hollywood these days
2. Hasn't it been said that every story has already been told and the only differences are how they're told?

9 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

I don't count it in the main saga, but that's nothing against it.

I liked it quite a bit, but it had a couple of genuine sticking points that keep it on par if not slightly below Return of The Jedi for me.

The interesting thing about Rogue One to me is that it changes the way I want to rank the Star Wars films. I've never liked ranking them because while Empire is a fantastic film, it always feels like half a movie to me. Big reveals happen at the end but if you stop there, none of them really get a chance to matter. I think the conflict in my heart is that realistically, the way I've actually felt is that Empire/Jedi is a better film than Star Wars, but the original on its merits alone is the best of the 3. Rogue One very much adds an Empire to A New Hope and because of that I don't want to rank it the same way. Instead I just feel that it makes RO/ANH the strongest SW film, with Empire/Jedi a close second and TFA in third, subject to how well TLJ completes its cliffhangers.

19 minutes ago, Kharnvor said:

1. Remakes are all the rage in Hollywood these days
2. Hasn't it been said that every story has already been told and the only differences are how they're told?

I think it was something on the lines of "There are only two stories: Man goes on a journey; A stranger comes to town."

That may be another one. What I'm thinking of definitely was about every story ever having been told. Maybe it was Stanley Kubrick who said it, though my memory is hazy.