Or it could simply be that Luke is super jaded about the whole thing and this line is said at the beginning of the film until Rey shows him that hope still remains and the Jedi are still needed and he renews his belief in what the Jedi can be, ultimately leading him out of his exile and into the conflict between the First Order and Resistance.
It's just a teaser, so hopefully when a trailer comes out we get more context.
Edited by StarkJuniorI believe your last statement is true. He does bring balance and sets Luke on the path and yes Qui Gon taught Yoda the force ghost technique. Please give me more Qui Gon.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gray_Jedi
and there is precedent
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Je'daii_Order
13 hours ago, DreadStar said:The title and Luke's comment in the trailer are both in plural (source : spanish makes the distinction crystal clear), he is not referencing himself, but the jedi. Or maybe you meant something different, in such case apologies.
Confirmed by the director as singular , sorry I didnt make it clear . This isnt my interpretation, but what Mr Johnson has said that it was always intended to be singular as in Luke is the last Jedi.
source too many to mention but this will do for now http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-04-15/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-has-finally-cleared-up-the-big-question-about-that-confusing-title
also worth noting the book in the trailer is The Journal of the Whills which has the following in it
I have been wondering how much the Way of the Whills would actually play into the new trilogy after the relative significance it was given in Rogue One.
Jedda could have been any planet with a decent store of kyber crystals, any temple or mine would do. Yet we got this whole location with significance to the Jedi and the canonisation of the religious group. It would work as a perfect link if the Whills factored into TLJ and its story, especially considering the extensive links between RO and so many of the other movies.
As an observation, that battle line of funky look starships during the space battle.....were those later day Republic Nebulon Class frigates?
On 2017-04-14 at 0:17 PM, KungFuFerret said:OT: I liked the trailer, though I did think, upon seeing all the pebbles floating up at her hand as she was crouched down, that she was going to pull a Superman and go flying up into the air.
It made me think of Ezra in Rebels, and it was not a good moment for learning to use the Force.
I don't agree that the Jedi ways didn't work...all that "for a thousand generations" etc, it worked just fine, apparently. So there must be something else going on. At this point I don't have much faith that it will make much sense, Disney will certainly make the conflict between dark and light go on far longer than it needs to for story purposes so they can continue to milk the franchise.
4 hours ago, whafrog said:It made me think of Ezra in Rebels, and it was not a good moment for learning to use the Force.
I don't agree that the Jedi ways didn't work...all that "for a thousand generations" etc, it worked just fine, apparently. So there must be something else going on. At this point I don't have much faith that it will make much sense, Disney will certainly make the conflict between dark and light go on far longer than it needs to for story purposes so they can continue to milk the franchise.
Yes but during that time how many darksiders were created because there were Jedi. How many fell to become their enemy, according to legends even the Sith (not the race) came into being because fallen jedi were banished. A lot of what we know about the dark side comes from Yoda (once you start down its path, forever will it dominate your Destiny, yet there has been plenty of canon proof otherwise, as there have been many who havd come back, one even became a force ghost, and even then without training).
There have been plenty of examples of Yoda either lying or being outright wrong, and he trained Jedi for over 800 years. Even Obi-wan (supposed to be the epitomy of the light side) has many examples of being manipulative to try and get what he wanted, albeit he did it with the best intentions, he wanted Vader dead, for the greater good. He wanted Luke to turn his back on his friends, how likely was it he knew Luke's aunt and uncle were at risk when he discovered about the droids (yet when Ezra was at risk, he came out of hiding to deal with Maul). The Jedi were far from compassionate, something Luke and ultimately Anakin were.
This isnt meant to be an anti jedi rant, but they were far from perfect, using lies and deciete and wielding them , when required, as effectively as Palpatine did, and they did manipulate Luke into trying to kill his father, thinking that that was the best course. Ultimately Luke rose above that and it was then the Sith were defeated. Now the gray can be resolved through refined Jedi sight, leaving space for lightsiders that have more compassion, humanity, and understanding than the Jedi had.
9 hours ago, syrath said:Confirmed by the director as singular , sorry I didnt make it clear . This isnt my interpretation, but what Mr Johnson has said that it was always intended to be singular as in Luke is the last Jedi.
source too many to mention but this will do for now http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-04-15/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-has-finally-cleared-up-the-big-question-about-that-confusing-title
Thx for posting this, but erhm did you read the interview ?The dude didn't even know himself what the title said, and answered from the get go. And deflected why in some languages it appeared as plural by this:
"It's so funny when people started asking that when the title was announced, because I had never even pondered that question,"
"Look, in my mind, it's singular. In my mind, it is. Absolutely, yeah,"
In his mind ? So he doesn't have a say in the title ? And they didn't manage to tell the translators on countries where articles can unambiguously define number and gender ? (not only Spanish, but german, french, etc...) Lol. You realize that you are pretty much saying that either they screwed up the translation on many different languages (something highly unlikely, i am not even talking about the title, but also Luke's/Kylo dub), or that it is singular because the director says it is how he "envisions" a title which isn't even his with a response which was the epytome of "oh crap, i don't know".
Edited by DreadStar8 hours ago, TheWanderingJewels said:As an observation, that battle line of funky look starships during the space battle.....were those later day Republic Nebulon Class frigates?
Slow down the trailer; you can see a FO TIE Fighter pass behind one of the new ships' cockpit. The solar wing will help you figure out how big it is....
16 hours ago, whafrog said:It made me think of Ezra in Rebels, and it was not a good moment for learning to use the Force.
I don't agree that the Jedi ways didn't work...all that "for a thousand generations" etc, it worked just fine, apparently. So there must be something else going on. At this point I don't have much faith that it will make much sense, Disney will certainly make the conflict between dark and light go on far longer than it needs to for story purposes so they can continue to milk the franchise.
Except for all of those times that the Sith engaged in galaxy spanning wars, like in the Old Republic, etc etc. And the fact that the Sith always are around, and can totally jack their plans, even if there are only a handful of them in existence.
Now sure, they weren't totally inept or horrible, far from it. But as they were presented in the movies and tv shows, they were a pretty pathetic organization, that were apparently incapable of subtlety or lateral thinking. And entire group with the power to see the future, generations of dealing with politics, some of the members being centuries old....and one dude is able to pull the wool over their eyes so completely, that he's able to hang out with them on a regular basis, without them ever figuring it out, and completely subverting their entire galactic bureaucracy to his will, to thunderous applause even. Sure, you can blame Lucas' terrible writing/direction for that, but sadly, that's what we have to work with, as it's canon. So, unfortunately, the Jedi were pretty useless by the end.
Now my beef is partly from a meta level, I'll admit. While I despise the "gray" concept of the Force, as it's been presented in the various materials (basically just an excuse to let you force choke and lightning, but still be a good guy). I still don't really care for the way the Jedi are presented in the material either. In the OT, it was fine, as they were a myth, a legend, so they could actually live up to the hype that Ben was selling to Luke.....until we got the PT. And then we see them in action, and they're just terrible. I can't believe they were able to function on a galactic scale, given the way they were depicted. So I really would just like to wash my hands of them entirely at this point. Come up with something new. I doubt they actually WILL, as the Jedi as a marketing concept, and cultural touchstone, are so embedded in our psyches, as to never be rooted out. But I personally don't find them all that compelling anymore as an organization, given how they are represented.
During the 40 Years of Star Wars panel, Lucas was basically like "They are movies for 12 year olds" and you have to remember that, to some extent, whether you agree or not. Sure, when you delve into it the Jedi have issues in the PT, but... they are still awesome and badass and most of the kids who saw them wanted to be Jedi.
And, sometimes, in space fantasy/space opera, that's all that matters.
On 4/14/2017 at 1:23 PM, Aetrion said:I find this whole balance thing really bizarre. The Jedi order is supposed to be based on Buddhism, but the idea that Light and Dark must be balanced is Taoism, so it just doesn't go together at all. Buddhism is already about achieving balance through the elimination of desires and attachments, so if that's just one side of a greater balance then the force just doesn't make any **** sense. There aren't two conflicting desires tugging over control of the galaxy, there is "I use the Force to do whatever I want" and "I don't want anything so I won't abuse the Force".
The Force gets thrown out of balance because the Jedi ultimately can't live up to their ideal, they have to fight the Sith because they aren't completely indifferent to the destruction of the galaxy despite striving for having no attachments or desires. If the Jedi were 100% true to their principles the Sith would simply win and rule the galaxy through wanton use of the Force. There would be no balance at that point, which is why in the Buddhist view the light side is balance, the dark side is unbalance.
If you run with the Taoist view, that opposing forces are actually a symbiotic part of the whole on the other hand it only works if you cast the Jedi as an organization dedicated to imposing their own kind of control over the force, and fighting anyone who doesn't go along with that. That doesn't really hold up with how they are written though. The Jedi aren't a bunch of moralizing Paladin types who go around striking down anyone they consider dark sided.
Technically, The Force and Jedi/Sith dichotomy was a combination of several religions. These included Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, and Toaism, among others.
23 hours ago, StarkJunior said:During the 40 Years of Star Wars panel, Lucas was basically like "They are movies for 12 year olds" and you have to remember that, to some extent, whether you agree or not. Sure, when you delve into it the Jedi have issues in the PT, but... they are still awesome and badass and most of the kids who saw them wanted to be Jedi.
And, sometimes, in space fantasy/space opera, that's all that matters.
Oh I'm fine with just letting them be the Good Guys in the abstract. But for me, the problem is when other people (writers, directors, etc) take hold of the material, and try to deepen the importance of the organizations, while also trying to make them more "real", THEN I think it's a valid time to criticize the ethics and dogma of the organization. But when you are just having them be the people fighting the SPACE NAZIS, sure, they are definitely the better option.
But after 40 years, the number of people who have expanded on, and debated the nuances of the franchise, have turned it into something different. Decades of fanboys arguing how the Sith aren't really badguys, because emotions aren't bad, and embracing them is totally natural. Other fans arguing that the Jedi's method of taking children away from their family structure, and telling them to sever all ties to emotion, is actually a horrible way to raise a child, and expect them to be a stable, well balanced member of society, etc etc. You know the kind of discussions I'm talking about.
I'm 100% fine with enjoying the Jedi, when they are kept just as 2 dimensional as the Space Nazis of the Empire. It's when people try to flesh them out, that I get critical of them, and the entire thing. But that's just fan wanking as it were, so it can be disregarded. BUUUUUT, now that they are making the end of the Jedi at least somewhat canon (or at the least the prospect of it), it's now something that has at least some merit to discuss, based on the actual material.
I don't know, I'm kind of of two minds about this. As I've stated in other threads, I'm really tired of the Jedi as they've been portrayed, but that is, I admit, mostly based on the "meta" evaluation of them. And, to be brutally honest, my annoyance with the decades worth of fanboyism about the franchise, that has gotten on my last good nerve over the years. The endless debates, the bickering, the strawman arguments, the apologist style behavior to support theories about why certain groups are actually badass, when it's all based on fan love (Mandalorians, I'm looking at you), yada yada, etc etc. At times, it annoys me so I want to just flip a table and set fire to a pile of vintage material just out of spite.
But, I still get choked up in Return, when Luke first ignites his new lightsaber on the skiff, and John Williams' music sweeps to a crescendo, and I'm an 8 year old kid again, in the theater, watching it for the first time.
So, as an adult, on a philosophical level, I'm all on board with the idea of the Jedi ending, and think it's probably a good idea (though from a Disney marketing angle, there is no way in hell they will actually end the Jedi. It's too lucrative a brand). On the "space opera" level though, I'm afraid that what they try and replace it with, will be something worse, from a concept/emotional level.
The whole Jedi ending thing is probably just Luke being all sad and very lonely on his island. He's just broken from when Ben turned to the Darkside. I'm certain Rey will play some part in convincing Luke to rethink that. Then Disney will have their cake and eat it too.
5 minutes ago, Shlambate said:The whole Jedi ending thing is probably just Luke being all sad and very lonely on his island. He's just broken from when Ben turned to the Darkside. I'm certain Rey will play some part in convincing Luke to rethink that. Then Disney will have their cake and eat it too.
Yeah, like I said above, I am seriously skeptical of them actually ending the Jedi. There is just too much money invested by Disney in this franchise, to dismantle the signature name/order of the franchise, that has inspired the imagination of, quite possibly billions of children at this point. The term Jedi Knight, has a MASSIVE, emotional, and cultural significance in our world. It's almost...atavistic at this point, a mythical touchstone, embedded in our collective psyche for generations. To say that they are going to end that? Yeah...no, sorry I'm just not buying it, at all. In-universe, I can see what Luke is saying. But from a marketing standpoint, of a titan like Disney? No freaking way. They will find some way to repurpose the Jedi. Most likely just updating their ethical/moral codes as depicted in previous versions, to something that is more palatable, and still keep the name.
The title said "Last JEDI" not "Last Lightsaber-wielding Force-user". I don't find it believable at all that Disney would create steer the continuing Star Wars stories down a road where the last force-user, ever, is revealed. Jedi is a pretty specific thing. I'm going to assume it means one of the characters in Ep. 8 is going to be the last "old school" JEDI. There will still be force-users left in the future Star Wars universe, they just aren't Jedi. Perhaps the gray force-users that we've discussed.
Hmm, is Disney headed towards a kumbaya moment where Kylo Ren repents, then Rey and "Ben" join to form a middle ground order of gray force-users, bringing balance to the Galaxy? I'm not sure if I love or hate that idea.
Edited by Sturn45 minutes ago, Sturn said:The title said "Last JEDI" not "Last Lightsaber-wielding Force-user". I don't find it believable at all that Disney would
createsteer the continuing Star Wars stories down a road where the last force-user, ever, is revealed. Jedi is a pretty specific thing. I'm going to assume it means one of the characters in Ep. 8 is going to be the last "old school" JEDI. There will still be force-users left in the future Star Wars universe, they just aren't Jedi. Perhaps the gray force-users that we've discussed.Hmm, is Disney headed towards a kumbaya moment where Kylo Ren repents, then Rey and "Ben" join to form a middle ground order of gray force-users, bringing balance to the Galaxy? I'm not sure if I love or hate that idea.
Yes but which phrase is more marketable, and rolls off the tongue better? Jedi? Or "Last Lightsaber-Wielding Force-User" ?
"You're wrong your higness. I am a "Last Lightsaber-Wielding Force-User", like my father before me!" *triumphant defiance against embodiment of evil*
*Evil stares back, annoyed* "So be it....."Last Lightsaber-Wielding Force-User"
It just doesn't have the emotional weight of Jedi. And any new word they come up with will likely sound stupid by comparison.
Kids, myself included, didn't grow up with thoughts of being a "Last Lightsaber-Wielding Force-User", I wanted to be a JEDI KNIGHT. Sure, the trappings can be the same. They can be a group of force users, who use lightsabers, and fight bad guys. But why change the name of the order, when it's got MONEY built into every letter of it? Because make no mistake, Disney are here to make bank. You don't throw down 4 BILLION dollars to buy a franchise, that is predominantly centered around a signature mystic order with a very iconic name, and then dump the mystic order. That's just crazytalk.
Now sure, I will admit that I could be wrong on this. It could be some plan to totally rebrand Star Wars, and create some brand new order. But...I just REALLY don't see that happening. It makes no sense from a marketing standpoint. I suspect, that Luke is going to just be a bitter pill for the next two movies, or until whatever point he dies. And with his dying words, he's going to recant, and tell Rey that he was wrong, that the Galaxy DOES need the Jedi, but she needs to be a better Jedi than those before her. And she's going to cry over his body, sobbing and nodding, and say "I will...." *deep breath, possibly as he actually dies* "....I promise...the Jedi will not die with you." Or "....the Jedi will live on" And then she's going to look up from over his slumped form, with a look of "I'm going to totally f*** up some badguys" on her face, the classic star wars music will come in, and she will ignite her blade, and go kick some Nuevo-Sith a$$. Queue dramatic climax, victory over the forces of evil, likely with the redemption of Kylo Ren at her side, and Finn, and they will work to continue the training of others, to insure the continuation of the Jedi Order. But not tied down by the trappings of the old and outdated dogma of the past.
I didn't use "Lightsaber-Wielding Force-User" as a title for a new force-user. It was a description without using "Jedi" or "Sith". The LWFU Order would obviously be laughable.
I don't concede that a new name, not as recognizable as Jedi, would preclude Disney making a move to a new order of force-users. Obviously something is happening since the title IS, The Last Jedi. It could easily be something already in canon such as calling them the "Bendu" while giving them an in-official* title of "Gray Jedi". "Sith" was added to our lexicon for a new type of force-user long ago without any hiccups to the Star Wars industry.
*And thus allowing for Luke to still be the last true Jedi.
1 hour ago, Sturn said:I didn't use "Lightsaber-Wielding Force-User" as a title for a new force-user. It was a description without using "Jedi" or "Sith". The LWFU Order would obviously be laughable.
I know, I was simply running with the phrase as an example for humorous purposes, but to also state a point.
1 hour ago, Sturn said:I don't concede that a new name, not as recognizable as Jedi, would preclude Disney making a move to a new order of force-users. Obviously something is happening since the title IS, The Last Jedi.
Says who? Remember that movie called "The RETURN of the Jedi?" Well, what did they do? Nothing apparently. Luke opened up a Jedi Daycare, it went down in flames (Literally), and then he buggered off for 30 years. Not really what I'd call a RETURN, based on the followup movies. So I don't put any weight at all in the title.
1 hour ago, Sturn said:It could easily be something already in canon such as calling them the "Bendu" while giving them an in-official* title of "Gray Jedi". "Sith" was added to our lexicon for a new type of force-user long ago without any hiccups to the Star Wars industry.
*And thus allowing for Luke to still be the last true Jedi.
Sorry but no. Nobody is going to prefer Bendu over Jedi. They're just not. And you said "in"-official, not sure if that's a typo and you meant "un"-official? If so, then it's just semantics. "We're not calling them Jedi, but they're still Jedi!" Is frankly a terrible idea, and again, wouldn't play out well with the marketing army at Disney. Jedi has MASSIVE brand recognition. To mess with that is just stupid. They are in this for the long haul, and trying to change their name makes no sense.
As to the thing about Sith, I seem to recall Vader being called the Dark Lord of the Sith looooong ago, so it's already canon, and has been there basically from the start. So I don't really see what that has to do with anything. Besides, simply naming the antagonist group isn't the same as renaming them.
4 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:Remember that movie called "The RETURN of the Jedi?" .......... Not really what I'd call a RETURN, based on the followup movies. So I don't put any weight at all in the title.
Luke did return as a Jedi Knight in that movie while having a hand in the death of the Emperor, fall of the Empire, and redemption of Darth. I think the Jedi returned in a grand way. The people that chose that title didn't even know if Episodes 1-3 or Episodes 7-9 were going to exist, let alone what exactly was going to occur in them.
4 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:Nobody is going to prefer Bendu over Jedi.
What I was saying is I didn't believe that using some new term isn't going to cause a downfall in sales. I would certainly buy a Black Series Bendu Rey in new gray colored robes.
4 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:And you said "in"-official, not sure if that's a typo and you meant "un"-official? If so, then it's just semantics. "We're not calling them Jedi, but they're still Jedi!" Is frankly a terrible idea, and again, wouldn't play out well with the marketing army at Disney. Jedi has MASSIVE brand recognition. To mess with that is just stupid. They are in this for the long haul, and trying to change their name makes no sense.
Yes it was a typo. I didn't propose a name change. Luke is still a Jedi, even if he's the last one. The name of a NEW order (Bendu, Gray Jedi, whatever you wish) replacing the Sith and Jedi in the future would soon get name recognition. If Episode 9 is the end of the series, the Jedi might not be missing from any of the 9 movies depending on when/if Luke dies during the sequels. Even if Disney decides to later do 10-12 down the road, they could always use something like my "Gray Jedi" suggestion. Even if they didn't, I don't see it causing any problems whatsoever with the profit of 10-12. Rogue One only muttered the word, "Jedi", once or twice, there aren't any Jedi action figures for it, but yet it was still an outstanding success.
4 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:As to the thing about Sith, I seem to recall Vader being called the Dark Lord of the Sith looooong ago, so it's already canon, and has been there basically from the start. So I don't really see what that has to do with anything.
I'll give you that Sith was mentioned in the original novelization of Ep. 4, but it wasn't something the average fan was aware of. Even fanboys back then had varying opinions of what "Dark Lord of the Sith" meant since it wasn't explained as a dark side user until much later. There was much speculation back at the start about what a Sith actually was. You couldn't Google an answer back then. Average fans only had the movies as a source. Fanboys only had semi-unofficial fanzines and novelizations. It wasn't until later, often in non-canon sources, that the Sith were elaborated upon. When everyone realized that Sith = Dark Jedi, it wasn't a problem for the marketing of regular Jedi. Likewise, having something like Bindu = Gray Jedi isn't going to have any negative affect whatsoever in my opinion. It could even be a boon. Average fans will be saying, "Cool, a new kind of Jedi", while being corrected, "They technically aren't Jedi", by us fanboys. The vast majority of the movies will still have Jedi, fans will still run around with lightsabers pretending to be Jedi, and fans aren't going to need to be reminded by Han Solo that they once existed if Luke ends up being the Last Jedi.
Edited by Sturn
I think you and I just need to agree to disagree on these points. Everything we're saying is speculation at this point anyway, and no sense continuing it off of a single teaser trailer.
We'll know who is correct when the movie comes out.
I'm really hoping The Last Jedi gives us something to call neutral Force-users other than Gray Jedi (which the haters turned into a derogatory term) or the Bendu (which makes people think you're just talking about that one guy). While Lucas may have told us what he believes balance in the Force to be, that philosophy never made it into the movies. With Mortis, the Wellspring of Life, the Bendu, and now Luke, I think we're seeing the evolution of Star Wars from primitive ideas of mustache-twirling evil and definitive good into more nuanced perspectives... over the course of about 10 years.
I just hope FFG gives us some half-decent neutral Force options, otherwise I'll have to keep running my own Force system and continue to treat "Morality" like the red-headed stepchild that it is.
Edited by Nivrap12 hours ago, Nivrap said:(which the haters turned into a derogatory term)
Yes because it can only be due to being a hater, and not at all because all of the representations of them are flawed and lame, and are a thinly veiled justification to allow people to gleefully use Force Choke on a bit*h, while still calling themselves good guys.
Sadly, there have been too many tossers at the gaming table that have tried to use "Grey Jedi" as an excuse for them to use/abuse dark side Force powers without paying the piper and taking a dark side point the way an actual Jedi (or even a Sith) would. This was especially prevalent in WEG days when using the Force to deal damage earned you a DSP and threshold to go dark sider was very low. And the reality was that such characters really were nothing more than quasi-psychic thugs with laser swords instead of being anything even remotely resembling a Jedi.
If you don't want to play by the code of conduct that the Jedi abide by, then don't call yourself a Jedi. Qui-Gon Jinn is probably the closest we've gotten in canon/Legends to a legitimate "grey Jedi" and he wasn't using dark side powers willy nilly; in his case, being "grey" meant that he didn't adhere to a strict interpretation of the Jedi Code and put his trust more in the Living Force as opposed to most Jedi of the time (especially the Council) trusting to the Unifying Force (focus on the big picture rather than the details).