6 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

I'm afraid I cannot fathom how that is the case? How does the game not function if we added 2 more factions?

primary factions, lets take a look at scum. When it first came out it had 7 ship (4 of those borrowed from the other 3 factions) Still the lowest ship count as Rebels and Imperials both had 9 ships. Still a manageable difference given for each Wave. Now fast forward to TFA and Wave 8. two new factions but with only 1 ship each but by then all the factions had 11 ships. Solution was just to add them into the existing 3.

Now if you were going to try and make a faction (without 2.0) you would either have to put them in the primary faction or some how figure out how a release of several ships per faction will catch up with the dozens of ships in the other factions. It just doesn't work at a balance standpoint unless those factions come up with a version of a top meta build but ends up only better (think Jumpmaster 8000 for the points of a jumpmaster 40000). Not with out some major innovation.

So my question to you is not how will 2 extra factions won't work (because I already answered it) but how would you put in two more factions into X-wing? A little hint, just making two new factions is not a valid answer. Considering a wave can have no more than 4 new ships or reuse more than 4 ship, and that you have to simultaneously release 2 new factions for the same wave. Under any other model it would take at least 2 waves before they are playable and having 2 waves of unplayable ships would not be a good business choice.

So tell me how you would add it in and carefully consider your constraints along with your goals. Then we may figure out how it could be done. But for now, it is simply impractical.

If you really want to get to the nitty gritty, Scum never should have become a faction on its own. What they should have done, to keep proper game balance is allow Scum to be fielded with either Rebel OR Imperial Fighters, as Scum already uses both faction ships, and most the scum faction isnt really Pirates, they mainly are bounty hunters, and both factions use bounty hunters, and both factions used mercenaries and pirates at some point or the other during the entire civil war.

and dont take the following completely serious, but its a silly idea i had...

If you really want to go thematic Rebel Alliance should be able to use whatever ships you have available, but at the very least could never field the named pilots, only generics of Imperial ships, and Imperial could field Imperial ships for HALF the value the rebellion could...

Scum ships would field cheaper for Rebellion, and twice as much for the Empire.... as most pirate factions actually aided the rebellion more then the empire because even aiding the rebellion aided there own piracy//smuggling efforts too in the area due to the Empires highly controversial restrictions on trade between systems.

Witch brings me back to my last reply, and why i started pointing out how you could easily bring in Clone Wars era factions and keep them functional between the current meta, with a lot of the ships being cross faction vessels.

On April 13, 2017 at 3:54 PM, rafcpl6868 said:

Ok, so between movies we see that rebels are running out of cannon ships to fly ...

Ok ... Page 1, Page 2, Page 3 ....

1 Gunboat

2. Missile Boat

until those happen... I consider FFG hasn't hit the "running out of cannon ships" level yet.

i am old school and spent the greater part of the mid 90s flying gunboats and missile boats for the Imperial Navy while I was in college. To me these ships ARE CANNON, despite what the mouse says.

3 minutes ago, lntrn8 said:

Ok ... Page 1, Page 2, Page 3 ....

1 Gunboat

2. Missile Boat

until those happen... I consider FFG hasn't hit the "running out of cannon ships" level yet.

i am old school and spent the greater part of the mid 90s flying gunboats and missile boats for the Imperial Navy while I was in college. To me these ships ARE CANNON, despite what the mouse says.

Rebels....REBELS are running out of cannon ships to fly... you want the Rebel Alliance to have gunboats and missle boats, im all for it.

30 minutes ago, Zeoinx said:

If you really want to get to the nitty gritty, Scum never should have become a faction on its own. What they should have done, to keep proper game balance is allow Scum to be fielded with either Rebel OR Imperial Fighters, as Scum already uses both faction ships, and most the scum faction isnt really Pirates, they mainly are bounty hunters, and both factions use bounty hunters, and both factions used mercenaries and pirates at some point or the other during the entire civil war.

and dont take the following completely serious, but its a silly idea i had...

If you really want to go thematic Rebel Alliance should be able to use whatever ships you have available, but at the very least could never field the named pilots, only generics of Imperial ships, and Imperial could field Imperial ships for HALF the value the rebellion could...

Scum ships would field cheaper for Rebellion, and twice as much for the Empire.... as most pirate factions actually aided the rebellion more then the empire because even aiding the rebellion aided there own piracy//smuggling efforts too in the area due to the Empires highly controversial restrictions on trade between systems.

Witch brings me back to my last reply, and why i started pointing out how you could easily bring in Clone Wars era factions and keep them functional between the current meta, with a lot of the ships being cross faction vessels.

That works for bounty hunters, but not Criminal Cartels who clash with both Imperials and Rebels, Pirates who everybody hates, and cultures like the Mandalorians who own no allegiance to either side. True, sticking them all under one banner isn't great, but still better than trying to make a faction for each of them or shoehorn them into one of the original two factions.

Just now, SabineKey said:

That works for bounty hunters, but not Criminal Cartels who clash with both Imperials and Rebels, Pirates who everybody hates, and cultures like the Mandalorians who own no allegiance to either side. True, sticking them all under one banner isn't great, but still better than trying to make a faction for each of them or shoehorn them into one of the original two factions.

Well Its not like Rebel or Imperial Operatives never manipulated Pirate Factions for there own gain, Imperial use them to allow them an excuse to declare marshal law, and Rebel forces used them as a distraction during a raid, such as when they took out the shield over Corosaunt during X-Wing novels....

Just now, Zeoinx said:

Well Its not like Rebel or Imperial Operatives never manipulated Pirate Factions for there own gain, Imperial use them to allow them an excuse to declare marshal law, and Rebel forces used them as a distraction during a raid, such as when they took out the shield over Corosaunt during X-Wing novels....

Manipulation and having them at your beck and call are very different things. Plenty of Imperial commanders manipulated Rebel forces to get what they want, like Vader and Tarken letting the Falcon go to follow them back to the Rebel Base.

Just now, SabineKey said:

Manipulation and having them at your beck and call are very different things. Plenty of Imperial commanders manipulated Rebel forces to get what they want, like Vader and Tarken letting the Falcon go to follow them back to the Rebel Base.

Wasnt Xizor working directly with the Emperor and Vader himself? I call that beck and call....

Just now, Zeoinx said:

Wasnt Xizor working directly with the Emperor and Vader himself? I call that beck and call....

For his own ends. He was also looking to supplant and destroy Vader, going after Luke to do so. Thus, Vader killed blew up his Skyhook.

I never said it wasnt for his own end, but the fact remains, he and his pirates worked with Imperials to allow them not to be killed, and there are countless other instances in other EU of simlar happenstances....

Just now, Zeoinx said:

I never said it wasnt for his own end, but the fact remains, he and his pirates worked with Imperials to allow them not to be killed, and there are countless other instances in other EU of simlar happenstances....

And also others of the Empire simply hunting down and destroying pirates. And there are still examples like the Mandalorians.

10 hours ago, lntrn8 said:

Ok ... Page 1, Page 2, Page 3 ....

1 Gunboat

2. Missile Boat

until those happen... I consider FFG hasn't hit the "running out of cannon ships" level yet.

i am old school and spent the greater part of the mid 90s flying gunboats and missile boats for the Imperial Navy while I was in college. To me these ships ARE CANNON, despite what the mouse says.

Dare I blaspheme and say this but the gunboat doesn't feel like star wars to me at all. It is a cool design and I'd like to see it in the game but I feel that it would be put of place almost.

21 hours ago, Marinealver said:

primary factions, lets take a look at scum. When it first came out it had 7 ship (4 of those borrowed from the other 3 factions) Still the lowest ship count as Rebels and Imperials both had 9 ships. Still a manageable difference given for each Wave. Now fast forward to TFA and Wave 8. two new factions but with only 1 ship each but by then all the factions had 11 ships. Solution was just to add them into the existing 3.

Now if you were going to try and make a faction (without 2.0) you would either have to put them in the primary faction or some how figure out how a release of several ships per faction will catch up with the dozens of ships in the other factions. It just doesn't work at a balance standpoint unless those factions come up with a version of a top meta build but ends up only better (think Jumpmaster 8000 for the points of a jumpmaster 40000). Not with out some major innovation.

So my question to you is not how will 2 extra factions won't work (because I already answered it) but how would you put in two more factions into X-wing? A little hint, just making two new factions is not a valid answer. Considering a wave can have no more than 4 new ships or reuse more than 4 ship, and that you have to simultaneously release 2 new factions for the same wave. Under any other model it would take at least 2 waves before they are playable and having 2 waves of unplayable ships would not be a good business choice.

So tell me how you would add it in and carefully consider your constraints along with your goals. Then we may figure out how it could be done. But for now, it is simply impractical.

I'm afraid you're still not making sense. Namely because you've made some flawed assumptions.

1) You assume for some reason a Wave cannot have more than 4 ships.

2) You assume a faction has to have total equivalency of the other factions upon release.

If FFG was going to add 2 new factions to the game, it would make sense for it to be a much larger than normal wave. We're probably talking at least 6 ships for each. So you'd have a 12 ship wave for release.

As for competitive viability, if its a larger wave and you properly design the ships, the factions will be perfectly fine. Remember its not like they'll only have the cards coming with them to make a competitive list, they'll have access to a good number of the existing cards.

Here is how I would structure releasing the Republic and CIS as factions.

Their first wave would have a Core set. Probably a Jedi Star Fighter and 2-3 Vulture Droids.

I would then put out the following blisters,

Republic: Jedi Star Fighter(interesting design space opportunity, a generic pilot with a pilot ability and EPT slot), Republic ARC-170, V-wing(dual faction with Scum), Republic Gunship(large ship), Republic Y-wing

CIS: Vulture Droid box(2 Vulture Droids), Nantex Fighter, Tri-Fighter, Hyena Bomber Droid, Bellbullab-22 Starfighter, HMP Droid Gunship(large ship)

Many of the CIS ships could also be dual faction with Scum, perhaps with a mandatory title if being used as Scum.

Thats plenty of ships to get a faction up and running.

50 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

I'm afraid you're still not making sense. Namely because you've made some flawed assumptions.

1) You assume for some reason a Wave cannot have more than 4 ships.

2) You assume a faction has to have total equivalency of the other factions upon release.

...

You have to keep in mind that those ships have to be manufactured, shipped and and distributed by the thousands no less. Sure there is no hard limit like 4 but the more ships you throw into a single wave the less likely you are going to make production times and the lower your profits margins are. I know you might think a 12 ship wave is possible but at a business standpoint that just foolishness.

And yes, a new faction that comes out will have to have at least 1 viable meta build or else it simply won't be played. Scum did encounter this problem when it first came out as it didn't have the 360 point fortress like Fat Han nor did it have the Arc Dodgers of the Empire. It did have one build, a two large ship list that had the firepower of the "buzzsaw shuttle" list but brought with it the mobility that the shuttles did not have thus displacing it in the meta. Bro Bots saved Scum early on and it wasn't until their superior Y-wings (thanks to unhinged astromech) that Scum started to climb to the top the following wave.

So as for my assumptions, they are valid on many accounts. you have to start somewhere. For your assumptions it seems like you are assuming money is no issue, and players will stick to X-wing and it will stay the most popular tabletop game no matter what. GW made that same assumption about Warhammer 40,000, and for some time they were right. Not even the surge of popularity of Privateer Press was able to dethrone them. However we know all know that a game can lose popularity and a new one take its place rather rapidly.

If every. single. other. Table top wargame in the world can do release cycles with multiple products than so can FFG.

Seriously. Go look at what significantly smaller companies are doing with their games. Privateer Press has dumped whole factions onto the market at once, Games Workshop has pretty much constant releases of highly complex plastic kits.

FFG can easily put out a wave of 12 simple plastic ships. And yes, they can be competitive too. You're assuming that you need 12 ships in a faction format to be competitive. That's definitely false.

More ships are definitely better, bit you gotta start somewhere. And plopping a faction out with ~6 ships to start with is solid.

I also would imagine the next 2ish cycles after initial release would also be for the Republic and CIS.

Yes, the company would be staking a bit on the success of launching the two factions. But they actually have to do this eventually. They will run out of stuff to release for the existing 3 factions at some point in the future. So they'll be forced to use the prequel/old republic era to keep the game going. Better to do it sooner rather than later.

Oh, and if FFGs margins are so low as putting out a wave like this would hurt them too much, then the company would already be in deep financial troubles. So I completely disagree with your assessment on this front. A 12 ship wave for two new factions is well within their capabilities to accomplish.

I'm sure some people might rage quit Xwing, but I highly doubt it would affect their sales. You're underestimating the value of star wars. Its pretty much impossible to not make money with a star wars product these days. And you're going to have a new generation of gaming nerds coming up in the next few years, and this generation are ones who have favorable views on the prequels. Its mostly us older folks who have disdain for them. A CIS and Republic faction would sell quite well.

I think 2-3 ships each side would be a good starting point. Then with that do a most wanted treatment for another 1-2 ships per side. Firespray for CIS (hello jango) and arc for republic (hello oddball) would obviously work.

16 hours ago, rafcpl6868 said:

Dare I blaspheme and say this but the gunboat doesn't feel like star wars to me at all. It is a cool design and I'd like to see it in the game but I feel that it would be put of place almost.

It is totally Star Wars! It's a fighter version of the lambda shuttle... That is the inspired design.