8 minutes ago, Democratus said:

You're fighting a Demo that doesn't have a Navigation Officer? Crazy!

I honestly couldn't tell you... I wanna say tac expert? Not many people run it locally... not many fans of close range here I guess

I guess we just like a guarantee of using the important upgrades.

There are so many slicer tools in our local meta you could re-cast an Armada battle as a ShadowRun adventure!

2 hours ago, Reinholt said:

So to describe my "neutral" (e.g. ignoring objectives or when I go first) deployment for the imperial fleet I have been playing, which consists of 1 glad, 1 raider, 4 flotillas, and 134 points of squadrons (a total of 10 deployments, so I'm also usually able to stall out my opponent on that front unless it's someone like @Tokra), it would look like this:

-----------------glad-----raider----------------

flot1------------flot2flot3----------------flot4

The flotillas are all facing sideways. 2&3 are touching butts so they fly in opposite directions. Often the glad and raider are angled as well. If someone is flying towards me quickly, fine, I can stall them into Demolisher. If not, I'm often happy not to even start shooting until turn 4 or later.

What is confusing to me is thus the idea that there's an easy answer to kill all those flotillas. Everything is poking around in the back (and if you rush one, the others can accelerate away). There's no concentration of force unless I choose to concentrate it. All of those flotillas are very, very killable but I will get the activation delay I need to set up the initial engagement every single time with zero probability of failure (no possible way to kill one of those flotillas before turn 3 barring deployment altering objectives), and they serve the purpose of providing the 8 activations I need for squadrons.

Does that make sense to people? You use the entire 6'x3' with relay and never concentrate. Always choose your engagements and if the other guy did not bring enough squadrons, often your dominant strategy is running away while chewing the best points vs effort ships to death to pocket an 8-3 and move on.

Honestly, the problem I have with the situation above is the Demolisher triple tap not the flotillas with relay squadrons (87 point tax to activate your squadrons? You deserve some advantage from that)

2 hours ago, pt106 said:

Given that flotillas combat power is negligent their deployment away from combat does not decrease the power of the fleet.

I disagree with this. Gozantis are excellent at pushing a small amount of damage, typically just enough to be annoying. Setting up a double arc isn't hard and you can throw a CF whenever you want. 2 Goz throw 4-6 dice. Or a lot more attacks on squads.

You could ask @GiledPallaeon how effective my Gozanti was in our match. 5 damage in a single attack going at a Most Wanted target. And if I'm not using Most Wanted, it's Opening Salvo. 3 blacks, 1 blue from 2 Gozanti is not something to disregard.

In the current example, I see 4 Goz not being utilized to their best potential. That's 8 blue dice spread among targets, or there to support killing squads. And dropping Relay frees up 15/30 points, unless the fleet is running a lot of Strategic objectives.

I see Gozantis as very effective ships. GR-75, not so much. Even the combat version isn't great since they only have front n rear arc.

2 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I disagree with this. Gozantis are excellent at pushing a small amount of damage, typically just enough to be annoying. Setting up a double arc isn't hard and you can throw a CF whenever you want. 2 Goz throw 4-6 dice. Or a lot more attacks on squads.

You could ask @GiledPallaeon how effective my Gozanti was in our match. 5 damage in a single attack going at a Most Wanted target. And if I'm not using Most Wanted, it's Opening Salvo. 3 blacks, 1 blue from 2 Gozanti is not something to disregard.

In the current example, I see 4 Goz not being utilized to their best potential. That's 8 blue dice spread among targets, or there to support killing squads. And dropping Relay frees up 15/30 points, unless the fleet is running a lot of Strategic objectives.

I see Gozantis as very effective ships. GR-75, not so much. Even the combat version isn't great since they only have front n rear arc.

I sank a liberty with a goz once... CF and double arc after the lib had taken a blast from avenger....

pew pew *BOOM* glug glug glug glug...

satisfying.

9 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I sank a liberty with a goz once... CF and double arc after the lib had taken a blast from avenger....

pew pew *BOOM* glug glug glug glug...

satisfying.

5 hours ago, geek19 said:

They have guns! Just like the raider-ii, it's technically a ship that exists!

And I'm intrigued by a tanky build without flotillas.

Im more intrigued by a "rebel tanky build" statement.

15 minutes ago, xerpo said:

Im more intrigued by a "rebel tanky build" statement.

His inspiration has definitely been Britt's Michigan Regional List:

Sans-Flotillae.

6 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

His inspiration has definitely been Britt's Michigan Regional List:

Sans-Flotillae.

I assumed similarly. Nothing tanks like a sandwich. But without flotillas? Sad. I've got my own 4 ship version that still has one flotilla just to keep things alive there.

6 hours ago, itzSteve said:

My two cents:

Personally, I have enjoyed playing lists that bring more flotillas. I look to kill them as fast as I can. In my last 5 games with my Liberty list, the Liberty has popped a flotilla on turn 2 in every game from long range, but one. That game it popped two CR90B ramming ships instead. It changes the activation battle very early in a match. I also use my own Bright Hope flotilla equipped with Slicer Tools to take away squad commands from other ships, or give squad commands to the ships that like to nav. It doesn't shy away from the fight at all. Flotillas to me have added way more variety and complexity to the game than if we didn't have them at all. If you take away the opponents flotillas early in a game, you take away the activation advantage they brought them for in the first place. Yes, my Liberty is a high cost ship to bring to the battle to kill the cheap flotilla, but if my opponent loses a activation every time I kill one, that's a win in my book.

This is a major element of why I suggest my change.

If Flotilla activations are being used to delay for key ships or squadrons, it should be inversely easier to remove them. This reduces the appeal of flotillas as "empty activations."

According to the other posters in this thread many of whom are suggesting to keep the scatter, flotillas are already easy to kill. If this is true, then I counter with the statement that flotillas must not be a problem at all. Because if Flotillas are easy to kill, then peeling a faster lesser combat ship like a Raider or CR90A off to hunt one or two (or even a Commander lifeboat) should be a simple and obvious decision.

Instead, nearly every counter suggested here involves sending highly powerful combat ships or activating large numbers of squadrons to hit them, or concentrating your entire fleet into a single target. Or equipping unique weapons and upgrades to a small handful of ships that can take them specifically to kill flotillas. Those upgrades again tend to be available mainly on powerful and expensive warships.

You've already all pointed out that it takes immense firepower to kill a flotilla, far in excess of the value of that ship.

15 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

This is a major element of why I suggest my change.

If Flotilla activations are being used to delay for key ships or squadrons, it should be inversely easier to remove them. This reduces the appeal of flotillas as "empty activations."

According to the other posters in this thread many of whom are suggesting to keep the scatter, flotillas are already easy to kill. If this is true, then I counter with the statement that flotillas must not be a problem at all. Because if Flotillas are easy to kill, then peeling a faster lesser combat ship like a Raider or CR90A off to hunt one or two (or even a Commander lifeboat) should be a simple and obvious decision.

Instead, nearly every counter suggested here involves sending highly powerful combat ships or activating large numbers of squadrons to hit them, or concentrating your entire fleet into a single target. Or equipping unique weapons and upgrades to a small handful of ships that can take them specifically to kill flotillas. Those upgrades again tend to be available mainly on powerful and expensive warships.

You've already all pointed out that it takes immense firepower to kill a flotilla, far in excess of the value of that ship.

To be fair, Some of us don't consider flotillas a problem at all.

12 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

To be fair, Some of us don't consider flotillas a problem at all.

I don't consider flotilla a problem when the value they provide to players is roughly commensurate with the value printed on the ship card.

That is demonstrably not true in a variety of factors. They are better at activations, better at squadrons, and due to scatter more survivable when actively disengaging them most ships in the game.

36 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

This is a major element of why I suggest my change.

If Flotilla activations are being used to delay for key ships or squadrons, it should be inversely easier to remove them. This reduces the appeal of flotillas as "empty activations."

According to the other posters in this thread many of whom are suggesting to keep the scatter, flotillas are already easy to kill. If this is true, then I counter with the statement that flotillas must not be a problem at all. Because if Flotillas are easy to kill, then peeling a faster lesser combat ship like a Raider or CR90A off to hunt one or two (or even a Commander lifeboat) should be a simple and obvious decision.

Instead, nearly every counter suggested here involves sending highly powerful combat ships or activating large numbers of squadrons to hit them, or concentrating your entire fleet into a single target. Or equipping unique weapons and upgrades to a small handful of ships that can take them specifically to kill flotillas. Those upgrades again tend to be available mainly on powerful and expensive warships.

You've already all pointed out that it takes immense firepower to kill a flotilla, far in excess of the value of that ship.

I don't think you are interpreting the reason I bring a high powered combat ship to the fight correctly. I bring it to kill ALL ships...it just so happens to kill flotillas very well ALSO...

As a side note...give me a Screed commanded Raider 1 with sensor teams and APT with a CF command and I will show you a dead flotilla as well...

40 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

Because if Flotillas are easy to kill, then peeling a faster lesser combat ship like a Raider or CR90A off to hunt one or two (or even a Commander lifeboat) should be a simple and obvious decision.

You don't do this already?

3 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

I disagree with this. Gozantis are excellent at pushing a small amount of damage, typically just enough to be annoying. Setting up a double arc isn't hard and you can throw a CF whenever you want. 2 Goz throw 4-6 dice. Or a lot more attacks on squads.

You could ask @GiledPallaeon how effective my Gozanti was in our match. 5 damage in a single attack going at a Most Wanted target. And if I'm not using Most Wanted, it's Opening Salvo. 3 blacks, 1 blue from 2 Gozanti is not something to disregard.

In the current example, I see 4 Goz not being utilized to their best potential. That's 8 blue dice spread among targets, or there to support killing squads. And dropping Relay frees up 15/30 points, unless the fleet is running a lot of Strategic objectives.

I see Gozantis as very effective ships. GR-75, not so much. Even the combat version isn't great since they only have front n rear arc.

Possibly the most annoying thing that game. Watching the victim's consort (both the victim and the avenger were ISD-1s, no pun intended) blast the flotilla and the Arq behind it to smithereens was quite satisfying. And those weren't even Assault Cruisers.

Just now, itzSteve said:

I don't think you are interpreting the reason I bring a high powered combat ship to the fight correctly. I bring it to kill ALL ships...it just so happens to kill flotillas very well ALSO...

Steve, I believe we played your Blockade Run at the tournament in Mountain View last month. I'm sure you can imagine that when my ISD shoots at GR75s it also does damage. I'm very aware that big ships hurt small ships. That's why we take big ships.

My question is, why aren't my or even most other smaller combat ships able to reliably harm flotillas? A fast powerful warship gets torn apart even as it speeds across the table, but the moment a GR75 or Gozanti gets shot at we're left begging for accuracy results.

Steve, apply the same logic to the rest of your fleet that isn't the Liberty. The rest of your fleet can't reliably damage GR75s, because it's largely rolling small numbers of red dice at range. Which means no reliable accuracies. Which means that only your liberty can consistently threaten flotillas.

How is it that in a fleet with at least three dedicated combat ships only one can actually hurt unarmed flotillas? Doesn't that strike you as odd?

2 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

How is it that in a fleet with at least three dedicated combat ships only one can actually hurt unarmed flotillas? Doesn't that strike you as odd?

Perhaps the answer lies in something like this:

Why does an ISD-II have an 8 Die Front Arc vs Ships, but can't swat a squadron of TIE fighters with it?

- Becasue they're small and hard to target.

Why do you go reaching for ACC results versus a Flotilla?

- Because a Flotilla is a group of smaller ships that are apparently **** hard to target - but they're at least big enough that turbolasers can at least try. Unlike Fighters.

31 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

To be fair, Some of us don't consider flotillas a problem at all.

I don't either, but to be fair, the flotilla crazyness hasn't really caught up here.

Still, when I see lists with 3 flotillas, 2 ships that can push squadrons and 134 points of squadrons being almost the "norm", I can't help but feel there's something wrong going on here.

When more than half that the ships you activate do "nothing" except push squadrons, it kinda feels like the epicness of Armada was lost somewhere.

23 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

I don't consider flotilla a problem when the value they provide to players is roughly commensurate with the value printed on the ship card.

That is demonstrably not true in a variety of factors. They are better at activations, better at squadrons, and due to scatter more survivable when actively disengaging them most ships in the game.

Personally if I would have to complain about any ship in the game (yes flotillas are ships) I'd rather complain about the NebulonB and its angles, firepower, defense tokens, shields and everthing about its design from the deep root of the game and its insultingly comparison with its imperial homologue, the gladiator.

I think that train passed years ago and nothing changed. So my advice as rebel player is, deal with it. Make flotillas work for you. There are tons of ways to run flotillas from suicide slicer tools, to lifeboats, carriers, bombing support... If you cant kill it, wich is surprisingly easy if you only try, just ignore it, youre not going to win by killing 18-40 points as much. And if you do then it means it was a satisfying contested match. The olny time a flotilla determined a game against me was a gozanti wich killed my nearly dead GH with a double arc.

Your point is that it is hard to kill. Every ship is hard to kill at long range, all you need is start rolling blues. You dont fire a flotilla with your main hull if you have other targets in range thats just , sorry to say, noob. The same way you dont shoot a cr90 at longe range when its moving away next turn at speed 4 when you can start to scratch damage on the enemy GH or Home One. You kill flotillas by intentionally chasing and ramming them, wich I find stupid, or letting the enemy make mistakes and come into medium-close range. As I said, deal with it. At least your flotillas roll dices.

16 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

I don't either, but to be fair, the flotilla crazyness hasn't really caught up here.

Still, when I see lists with 3 flotillas, 2 ships that can push squadrons and 134 points of squadrons being almost the "norm", I can't help but feel there's something wrong going on here.

When more than half that the ships you activate do "nothing" except push squadrons, it kinda feels like the epicness of Armada was lost somewhere.

Lol. Welcome to the 134 mass squadron mass flotilla age.

Trash your medium ships and large ships.

16 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

I don't either, but to be fair, the flotilla crazyness hasn't really caught up here.

Still, when I see lists with 3 flotillas, 2 ships that can push squadrons and 134 points of squadrons being almost the "norm", I can't help but feel there's something wrong going on here.

When more than half that the ships you activate do "nothing" except push squadrons, it kinda feels like the epicness of Armada was lost somewhere.

::shrug::

Still feels pretty epic to me.



(Yes, its an All-out battle... But all 6x Fleets basically meet that Archtype)

16 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

When more than half that the ships you activate do "nothing" except push squadrons, it kinda feels like the epicness of Armada was lost somewhere.

Thats arguable. If your concept of epicness is MOREISDSYESPLEASE then it is definetely lost.

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

::shrug::

Still feels pretty epic to me.



(Yes, its an All-out battle... But all 6x Fleets basically meet that Archtype)

Hmmm... come on Dras, we both know this isn't the norm. I'm talking the usual 400 points lists. Like I said, I haven't seen these, but lists consisting of Yavaris, PH, 3 flotillas with Rieekan and squadrons... ugh... kill me plz.

6 minutes ago, xerpo said:

Thats arguable. If your concept of epicness is MOREISDSYESPLEASE then it is definetely lost.

not really, I just like ships that can shoot more than 1 die when they activate (and no, gozantis with CF don't count)