8 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

Steve - how are you getting that in range on turn 2? Doesn't this rely on the other go moving a flotilla towards you? And, likewise, as PT said, hard to kill at long range (though at least plausible with raymus, CF, and Spinal).

A speed 4 Liberty can get to the middle of the board from a distance 3 deployment. Unless the flotilla is actually flying sideways along the board edge, the Liberty long range front arc reaches into the opponents deployment zone. So even if the flotilla deploys on the back edge, if it is moving in any direction besides hugging the board edge, moving forward at speed 1, the Liberty can reach it.

6 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

So to be clear, you guys are willing to spend 151 and 146 points (I subtracted Madine since he could be on any ship) respectively to chase down my single 18 point ship on a board edge in the far corner, and kill it no earlier than turn 3?

I am unsure I could make a better argument in favor of the naked delay flotilla.

I guess I'd have to see how you set it all up, cause I have a hard time believing there would be absolutely nothing else to shoot at all game...

You do know these ships can fire at non-flotillas too right? And they're both pretty good at it...

5 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

So to be clear, you guys are willing to spend 151 and 146 points (I subtracted Madine since he could be on any ship) respectively to chase down my single 18 point ship on a board edge in the far corner, and kill it no earlier than turn 3?

I am unsure I could make a better argument in favor of the naked delay flotilla.

As it has been stated, most fleets are bringing 2-3+ flotillas to the fight. Not all of them are going to be flying off into space as a lifeboat or relay squad command ship. My statement is, if your fleet has 5+ activations, but 2-3 of them are flotillas, I try to kill them as fast as possible to take away the extra activations you brought. My other ships can then hunt you down, or wait you out while you fly into my more dangerous arcs.

4 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

So to be clear, you guys are willing to spend 151 and 146 points (I subtracted Madine since he could be on any ship) respectively to chase down my single 18 point ship on a board edge in the far corner, and kill it no earlier than turn 3?

I am unsure I could make a better argument in favor of the naked delay flotilla.

see this is the part I don't get...

that 151 points can attack twice every round... plus other ships... plus fighters...

It's not like people load up an ISD and say, "Okay guys, those three 18 point flots are the REAL goal here... hold your fire until they're in range".

Or during deployment are you not going to deploy in a way that would allow your ships to engage those floats sooner if you need them eliminated for activation support?

There's such a HUGE level of variance in every match to say they "blew 151 points to hunt down 18 points" is just plain silly.... they brought a 151 point war machine that just so happens to destroy floats well too

52 minutes ago, WuFame said:

Holy cow, you have a 22 year old son? You didn't look nearly old enough for that to be possible when I met you. Kudos on the aging, buddy.

There is...another...

(He is my younger son...I also have a 26 year old son...)

15 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

So to be clear, you guys are willing to spend 151 and 146 points (I subtracted Madine since he could be on any ship) respectively to chase down my single 18 point ship on a board edge in the far corner, and kill it no earlier than turn 3?

I am unsure I could make a better argument in favor of the naked delay flotilla.

Yeah what @itzSteve and @darth sanguis said. If your flotilla is in range, heck yeah am I whipping dice at it. If not, there's always other stuff. I'm not NOT gonna take my gunnery team shot if I have it right?

3 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Yeah what @itzSteve and @darth sanguis said. If your flotilla is in range, heck yeah am I whipping dice at it. If not, there's always other stuff. I'm not NOT gonna take my gunnery team shot if I have it right?

Okay, I mean, even if 151 point death pickle does primarily gun for the float to eliminate it by round 3... that leave 3 full rounds where that activation advantage is lost... and they still have to face off against 151 points of death pickle....

I really don't get it.... Maybe it's because I run ISDs more than other ships so when I see 18 point nothings my star destroyers are going OM NOM NOM NOM

After reading all this I have to wonder what would happen if a Relay would be limited to non-flotilla ships?

3 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Okay, I mean, even if 151 point death pickle does primarily gun for the float to eliminate it by round 3... that leave 3 full rounds where that activation advantage is lost... and they still have to face off against 151 points of death pickle....

I really don't get it.... Maybe it's because I run ISDs more than other ships so when I see 18 point nothings my star destroyers are going OM NOM NOM NOM

They ARE tasty aren't they!...Every time a flotilla pops like popcorn, I'm looking around for the butter!

So to describe my "neutral" (e.g. ignoring objectives or when I go first) deployment for the imperial fleet I have been playing, which consists of 1 glad, 1 raider, 4 flotillas, and 134 points of squadrons (a total of 10 deployments, so I'm also usually able to stall out my opponent on that front unless it's someone like @Tokra), it would look like this:

-----------------glad-----raider----------------

flot1------------flot2flot3----------------flot4

The flotillas are all facing sideways. 2&3 are touching butts so they fly in opposite directions. Often the glad and raider are angled as well. If someone is flying towards me quickly, fine, I can stall them into Demolisher. If not, I'm often happy not to even start shooting until turn 4 or later.

What is confusing to me is thus the idea that there's an easy answer to kill all those flotillas. Everything is poking around in the back (and if you rush one, the others can accelerate away). There's no concentration of force unless I choose to concentrate it. All of those flotillas are very, very killable but I will get the activation delay I need to set up the initial engagement every single time with zero probability of failure (no possible way to kill one of those flotillas before turn 3 barring deployment altering objectives), and they serve the purpose of providing the 8 activations I need for squadrons.

Does that make sense to people? You use the entire 6'x3' with relay and never concentrate. Always choose your engagements and if the other guy did not bring enough squadrons, often your dominant strategy is running away while chewing the best points vs effort ships to death to pocket an 8-3 and move on.

2 minutes ago, pt106 said:

After reading all this I have to wonder what would happen if a Relay would be limited to non-flotilla ships?

This is an interesting idea. It could solve some of the issues some are seeing.

41 minutes ago, itzSteve said:

A CF command + Raymus token on turn 2 kills a flotilla most times. I don't know the math on that, but my red dice are less fickle right now. Maybe I am due a correction to the average soon...

6 red dice is average 4.5 damage and average 0.75 Acc. Assuming you reroll a blank for an Acc, that average increases to 0.9375. I have a Lib build very similar to yours. Cattle Bruiser, Raymus, ET, QTC, SA, LS, and GT. You have a very good chance to outright kill flotillas at long range and dish some pain to something else.

3 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

So to describe my "neutral" (e.g. ignoring objectives or when I go first) deployment for the imperial fleet I have been playing, which consists of 1 glad, 1 raider, 4 flotillas, and 134 points of squadrons (a total of 10 deployments, so I'm also usually able to stall out my opponent on that front unless it's someone like @Tokra), it would look like this:

-----------------glad-----raider----------------

flot1------------flot2flot3----------------flot4

The flotillas are all facing sideways. 2&3 are touching butts so they fly in opposite directions. Often the glad and raider are angled as well. If someone is flying towards me quickly, fine, I can stall them into Demolisher. If not, I'm often happy not to even start shooting until turn 4 or later.

What is confusing to me is thus the idea that there's an easy answer to kill all those flotillas. Everything is poking around in the back (and if you rush one, the others can accelerate away). There's no concentration of force unless I choose to concentrate it. All of those flotillas are very, very killable but I will get the activation delay I need to set up the initial engagement every single time with zero probability of failure (no possible way to kill on of those flotillas before turn 3 barring deployment altering objectives), and they serve the purpose of providing the 8 activations I need for squadrons.

Does that make sense to people? You use the entire 6'x3' with relay and never concentrate. Always choose your engagements and if the other guy did not bring enough squadrons, often your dominant strategy is running away while chewing the best points vs effort ships to death to pocket an 8-3 and move on.

bid?

1 minute ago, Reinholt said:

So to describe my "neutral" (e.g. ignoring objectives or when I go first) deployment for the imperial fleet I have been playing, which consists of 1 glad, 1 raider, 4 flotillas, and 134 points of squadrons (a total of 10 deployments, so I'm also usually able to stall out my opponent on that front unless it's someone like @Tokra), it would look like this:

-----------------glad-----raider----------------

flot1------------flot2flot3----------------flot4

The flotillas are all facing sideways. 2&3 are touching butts so they fly in opposite directions. Often the glad and raider are angled as well. If someone is flying towards me quickly, fine, I can stall them into Demolisher. If not, I'm often happy not to even start shooting until turn 4 or later.

What is confusing to me is thus the idea that there's an easy answer to kill all those flotillas. Everything is poking around in the back (and if you rush one, the others can accelerate away). There's no concentration of force unless I choose to concentrate it. All of those flotillas are very, very killable but I will get the activation delay I need to set up the initial engagement every single time with zero probability of failure (no possible way to kill on of those flotillas before turn 3 barring deployment altering objectives), and they serve the purpose of providing the 8 activations I need for squadrons.

Does that make sense to people? You use the entire 6'x3' with relay and never concentrate. Always choose your engagements and if the other guy did not bring enough squadrons, often your dominant strategy is running away while chewing the best points vs effort ships to death to pocket an 8-3 and move on.

If I see a deployment like this, you have to pick your fight. You are deploying in a way to avoid being tabled. Therefore, you are also limiting the big score you need in a tournament setting. I would pick one side or the other with my Liberty, kill two flotillas, one support ship, farm some squads and call it a day. Not every game is gonna produce a big score win.

Just now, itzSteve said:

If I see a deployment like this, you have to pick your fight. You are deploying in a way to avoid being tabled. Therefore, you are also limiting the big score you need in a tournament setting. I would pick one side or the other with my Liberty, kill two flotillas, one support ship, farm some squads and call it a day. Not every game is gonna produce a big score win.

Same with my ISDs except if my bid is low enough I could rack up a ton of points in objectives

12 minutes ago, pt106 said:

After reading all this I have to wonder what would happen if a Relay would be limited to non-flotilla ships?

I think we'd see raider/CR90 mobs with tarkin/leia doing the same thing for only a little more?

3 minutes ago, itzSteve said:

You are deploying in a way to avoid being tabled. Therefore, you are also limiting the big score you need in a tournament setting.

I don't think its true, as this fleet can outdeploy most of the fleets and therefore deploy Demolisher in a threatening fashion. Given that flotillas combat power is negligent their deployment away from combat does not decrease the power of the fleet. Keep in mind that the main threat there are squadrons and Demo triple tap.

(P.S. And yes, I do feel somewhat guilty after utilizing a somewhat similar fleet and flotilla deployment tactic in MA Regional )

3 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I think we'd see raider/CR90 mobs with tarkin/leia doing the same thing for only a little more?

Raider/CR90 are Squadron 1 and cost more. And Tarkin is expensive by itself.

8 minutes ago, pt106 said:

Raider/CR90 are Squadron 1 and cost more.

Okay, sure, but with tarkin/leia, everything gets +1 squadron (if you so choose), how many squads are you activating via relay 2 at time?


Raiders are all now basically squad 2 speed 3 lifeboats with braces and evades... With a full 134 and tarkin you have room for 5 with a little bit for bid or upgrade

with Cr90s? lol

you can also fit 5 with a full 134 and leia and they become squad 2 speed 4 lifeboats with evades and ridirect and almost a full cr90's value in upgrades or bid...

so on both sides relay can activate up to 10 squads...

do you really need more to make a 134 worth of squads do it's thing?

3 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

Does that make sense to people? You use the entire 6'x3' with relay and never concentrate. Always choose your engagements and if the other guy did not bring enough squadrons, often your dominant strategy is running away while chewing the best points vs effort ships to death to pocket an 8-3 and move on.

I honestly think it comes down to how people are playing flotillas. I've only seen 4 flotillas on the table for 1 side a handful of times, most being Caldias with his 4 GR-75 and 3 MC30 list. I have yet to see anyone use Relay in this fashion you are talking about, with the exception of myself. Considering I don't get the chance to go out to play every week when we do get together, Caldias, Wufame and the others could be doing this stuff, but I find it unlikely.

I fly my flotillas with my fleet. They trail behind, but move in the same direction as my combat ships. I don't send them off to the edge, even if they have a commander on it. I've had too many close calls send them off and watching an ISD sweep behind my fleet and give chase on round 5/6.

And as far as I am aware, the top 4 tables are using very little Relay, so this fleet design you are describing doesn't hit the table very often. Maybe people just don't want to play like that?

Theoretically, you are 100% correct. You can use this Relay delay tactic and use Demo to kill something. Rhymer and Relay are a force to be reckoned with. It could be this is how you have ended up playing the game with who ever you play with. Maybe your micrometa has evolved into an activation arms-race and that's all you see.

But you have to understand when people say "Nah I've never seen that. Why are you playing with 4 flotillas?" and I fall into that category. When I did play Caldias's MC30 swarm with 4 flots, they still moved with the fleet. He used them as AA to deal with Rogues, which tend to burn down MC30s quickly. Or he used them to block ships and lock them in a double arc for the MC30s.

One thing I've begun to question is what the actual problem is. Is it flotillas? Is it high activation lists are better? I think it is the latter, and flotillas are a symptom of the problem. Wave 2 had Clonisher DeMSU winning because they out-activated other fleets. Now we have a spammable, cheap ship to pad activations with. I want to make this clear to everyone. I think the issue is high activation lists perform better, and flotillas are a symptom of that problem. If we didn't have flotillas, you could still make a 7 activation lists with CR90s or Raiders. Or 5 activations with a medium ships and CR90s/Raiders.

I run Konstantine with tractors and slicers.

Delay all you like. Your Demo still isnt getting its nav dial or nav token.

Of course you can always activate it first, but I have an ISD and you have just wasted 4 flotillas.

1 minute ago, Ginkapo said:

I run Konstantine with tractors and slicers.

Delay all you like. Your Demo still isnt getting its nav dial or nav token.

You're fighting a Demo that doesn't have a Navigation Officer? Crazy!

Just now, Democratus said:

You're fighting a Demo that doesn't have a Navigation Officer? Crazy!

They're normally Wulff in my experience. People gamble on being able to nav and still get a ConFire Dial at the same time.

7 minutes ago, Democratus said:

You're fighting a Demo that doesn't have a Navigation Officer? Crazy!

Intel officer. It's usually Intel officer in my experience.

9 minutes ago, Democratus said:

You're fighting a Demo that doesn't have a Navigation Officer? Crazy!

I see a lot of Skilled First Officer so Demo can cycle his stack back to a nav command after being slicered...