1 minute ago, shmitty said:

I think I said it somewhere here before, but if you really want to stop people just hiding with their flotillas just have them not prevent tabling.

Essentially if all you have left on the table is squadrons and flotillas, you lose and your opponent gets 400 points.

Fixes the bad behavior and adds risk to over-reliance on flotillas for activations.

I know I've seen you say that. I dunno if it was here. I think this would be pretty effective.

My two cents:

Personally, I have enjoyed playing lists that bring more flotillas. I look to kill them as fast as I can. In my last 5 games with my Liberty list, the Liberty has popped a flotilla on turn 2 in every game from long range, but one. That game it popped two CR90B ramming ships instead. It changes the activation battle very early in a match. I also use my own Bright Hope flotilla equipped with Slicer Tools to take away squad commands from other ships, or give squad commands to the ships that like to nav. It doesn't shy away from the fight at all. Flotillas to me have added way more variety and complexity to the game than if we didn't have them at all. If you take away the opponents flotillas early in a game, you take away the activation advantage they brought them for in the first place. Yes, my Liberty is a high cost ship to bring to the battle to kill the cheap flotilla, but if my opponent loses a activation every time I kill one, that's a win in my book.

4 minutes ago, shmitty said:

I think I said it somewhere here before, but if you really want to stop people just hiding with their flotillas just have them not prevent tabling.

Essentially if all you have left on the table is squadrons and flotillas, you lose and your opponent gets 400 points.

Fixes the bad behavior and adds risk to over-reliance on flotillas for activations.

I thought that was discussed like a week ago on whatever day that was. I know it was a thread with people having opinions about flotillas!

Kidding aside, if FFG does anything I think I'd be ok with this.

1 minute ago, itzSteve said:

My two cents:

Personally, I have enjoyed playing lists that bring more flotillas. I look to kill them as fast as I can. In my last 5 games with my Liberty list, the Liberty has popped a flotilla on turn 2 in every game from long range, but one. That game it popped two CR90B ramming ships instead. It changes the activation battle very early in a match. I also use my own Bright Hope flotilla equipped with Slicer Tools to take away squad commands from other ships, or give squad commands to the ships that like to nav. It doesn't shy away from the fight at all. Flotillas to me have added way more variety and complexity to the game than if we didn't have them at all. If you take away the opponents flotillas early in a game, you take away the activation advantage they brought them for in the first place. Yes, my Liberty is a high cost ship to bring to the battle to kill the cheap flotilla, but if my opponent loses a activation every time I kill one, that's a win in my book.

I love the LMC80 for that reason

15 hours ago, geek19 said:

Thanks, @Baltanok. Not to beg for more data, but is there a split of 4 vs 5 at a certain time, or is it mostly 4s and 5s across the board (as in, 4 was dominant until December, then top 4 always had 5 or so)? And can I ask about 6 ship fleets with regards to all that, too? I appreciate all your effort on this!

6-ship fleets were too rare to draw conclusions from. basic rule of thumb is you can't draw statistically valid conclusions about a population until you have 40 data points.

4 minutes ago, Baltanok said:

6-ship fleets were too rare to draw conclusions from. basic rule of thumb is you can't draw statistically valid conclusions about a population until you have 40 data points.

That answers a lot in and of itself.

25 minutes ago, itzSteve said:

My two cents:

Personally, I have enjoyed playing lists that bring more flotillas. I look to kill them as fast as I can. In my last 5 games with my Liberty list, the Liberty has popped a flotilla on turn 2 in every game from long range, but one. That game it popped two CR90B ramming ships instead. It changes the activation battle very early in a match. I also use my own Bright Hope flotilla equipped with Slicer Tools to take away squad commands from other ships, or give squad commands to the ships that like to nav. It doesn't shy away from the fight at all. Flotillas to me have added way more variety and complexity to the game than if we didn't have them at all. If you take away the opponents flotillas early in a game, you take away the activation advantage they brought them for in the first place. Yes, my Liberty is a high cost ship to bring to the battle to kill the cheap flotilla, but if my opponent loses a activation every time I kill one, that's a win in my book.

That is an expensive ship to chase an 18 point flotilla on the back board edge, and you also won't be shooting at that until at least turn 3.

To echo some points that both @shmitty and @Undeadguy were astutely making, the problem is not killing flotillas. That's easy. The problem is killing flotillas in such a cost effective way that it's not the dominant solution to still take them anyways.

If you are telling me that by spending 18-36 points (or 23-46 if Imperial) I can cause you to dedicate a well over 100 point combat ship to killing them, I would suggest your love of the flotilla killing MC80 is an argument for me to take more flotillas, not less! That is a highly asymmetric trade and so long as I spread out so you are not killing multiples in one turn, I win that trade. @Undeadguy had the right point: the problem is there's basically no argument not to take them. For what I get out of them, I would be a fool not to start every single list with at least two.

As some additional detail, I was talking to @Overdawg about Stele (congrats again on the win, dude), and it sounds like over 75% of the top 20 had 2+ flotillas and the lists with less were all clustered at the bottom.

On the other hand, @shmitty has a good point: if you want to change the behavior, you have to change something fundamental about why the behavior exists. Flotillas not counting as ships for tabling is a step in that direction. It is a direct reduction in the value of the most odious kind of flotilla: the ever-present back board edge crawler who never intends to engage.

1 hour ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

It is so funny. I'll try to put his view in my words, but I think overall he justs think they are stupid. (And by the way, he is 22. Not a child)

First of all, he plays Rebels (rebel scum) and he despises the fact that they don't have guns like every other ship.

Second, I think he is more into the "tanky" builds. He hates how easy they go "pop."

What's funny is I tell him that is what they do, and that they can support his tanky builds, but he wants none of that. He goes all "non-flotilla".

Holy cow, you have a 22 year old son? You didn't look nearly old enough for that to be possible when I met you. Kudos on the aging, buddy.

2 minutes ago, WuFame said:

Holy cow, you have a 22 year old son? You didn't look nearly old enough for that to be possible when I met you. Kudos on the aging, buddy.

He's been spending years using flotillas to delay his aging by having all of them activate and get gray hair first. It's why his son hates them so much.

5 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

That is an expensive ship to chase an 18 point flotilla on the back board edge, and you also won't be shooting at that until at least turn 3.

To echo some points that both @shmitty and @Undeadguy were astutely making, the problem is not killing flotillas. That's easy. The problem is killing flotillas in such a cost effective way that it's not the dominant solution to still take them anyways.

If you are telling me that by spending 18-36 points (or 23-46 if Imperial) I can cause you to dedicate a well over 100 point combat ship to killing them, I would suggest your love of the flotilla killing MC80 is an argument for me to take more flotillas, not less! That is a highly asymmetric trade and so long as I spread out so you are not killing multiples in one turn, I win. @Undeadguy had the right point: the problem is there's basically no argument not to take them. For what I get out of them, I would be a fool not to start every single list with at least two.

As some additional detail, I was talking to @Overdawg about Stele (congrats again on the win, dude), and it sounds like over 75% of the top 20 had 2+ flotillas and the lists with less were all clustered at the bottom.

On the other hand, @shmitty has a good point: if you want to change the behavior, you have to change something fundamental about why the behavior exists. Flotillas not counting as ships for tabling is a step in that direction. It is a direct reduction in the value of the most odious kind of flotilla: the ever-present back board edge crawler who never intends to engage.

Having been using the Liberty lately, it's not a "aiming for flotillas" ship so much as "gunnery teams, h9s, and 2 ships in range, one of which being a flotilla" means I'm throwing dice at one. With a good roll, 5 red dice becomes 4 hits and an accuracy. Or something there that can take one out, potentially, based on the roll.

1 minute ago, Reinholt said:

That is an expensive ship to chase an 18 point flotilla on the back board edge, and you also won't be shooting at that until at least turn 3.

To echo some points that both @shmitty and @Undeadguy were astutely making, the problem is not killing flotillas. That's easy. The problem is killing flotillas in such a cost effective way that it's not the dominant solution to still take them anyways.

If you are telling me that by spending 18-36 points (or 23-46 if Imperial) I can cause you to dedicate a well over 100 point combat ship to killing them, I would suggest your love of the flotilla killing MC80 is an argument for me to take more flotillas, not less! That is a highly asymmetric trade and so long as I spread out so you are not killing multiples in one turn, I win. @Undeadguy had the right point: the problem is there's basically no argument not to take them. For what I get out of them, I would be a fool not to start every single list with at least two.

As some additional detail, I was talking to @Overdawg about Stele (congrats again on the win, dude), and it sounds like over 75% of the top 20 had 2+ flotillas and the lists with less were all clustered at the bottom.

On the other hand, @shmitty has a good point: if you want to change the behavior, you have to change something fundamental about why the behavior exists. Flotillas not counting as ships for tabling is a step in that direction. It is a direct reduction in the value of the most odious kind of flotilla: the ever-present back board edge crawler who never intends to engage.

For the most part, if there is a Commander lifeboat flotilla that wants to fly by itself off into never never land, I ignore it. I look more for the flotillas that are placed early in the deployment phase of the game when they are trying to delay the placement of their bigger ships. Those are the flotillas I target with my Liberty. Most players are given a false sense of security when I deploy my Liberty at speed 2 across from them. They will come out with their comms net flotillas at speed 1 or 2, pass the token off and move on. I wait until the last activation, throw my Liberty across the board at speed 3+ET and "POP" goes the flotilla. It has happened for me on a pretty consistent basis. No, I don't bring my 170 pt. Liberty (with Madine on board) to the fight just to kill flotillas, but if they are in the way while I am hunting bigger ships, all the better. Bring more flotillas if you want....it only justifies my bringing of gunnery teams even more.

1 minute ago, geek19 said:

Having been using the Liberty lately, it's not a "aiming for flotillas" ship so much as "gunnery teams, h9s, and 2 ships in range, one of which being a flotilla" means I'm throwing dice at one. With a good roll, 5 red dice becomes 4 hits and an accuracy. Or something there that can take one out, potentially, based on the roll.

I have no quarrel with this.

I am asking how you are setting this up! Unless that flotilla has BCC, Slicer Tools, or is being used as Anti-Squadron covering fire, it has no business being near anything else instead of on the back board edge and away from the main combat ships.

Perhaps it was the genie out of the bottle problem once one person started doing it, but most flotillas I encounter now are nowhere near the other ships and you won't be shooting anything else if you are shooting them. I am beginning to think a core divergence between views is "do you exist in a meta where people have begun deliberately hiding flotillas out of the fight with no intention to ever engage" or have people not started trying that yet?

10 minutes ago, geek19 said:

With a good roll, 5 red dice becomes 4 hits and an accuracy. Or something there that can take one out, potentially, based on the roll.

I was toying with the idea of killing flotillas long range before and even with 5 dice and guaranteed accuracy there was no way to one shot a flotilla long range unless you get multiple double hits (or a double with a second accuracy) or a crit that ends up being a direct hit.

9 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

I have no quarrel with this.

I am asking how you are setting this up! Unless that flotilla has BCC, Slicer Tools, or is being used as Anti-Squadron covering fire, it has no business being near anything else instead of on the back board edge and away from the main combat ships.

Perhaps it was the genie out of the bottle problem once one person started doing it, but most flotillas I encounter now are nowhere near the other ships and you won't be shooting anything else if you are shooting them. I am beginning to think a core divergence between views is "do you exist in a meta where people have begun deliberately hiding flotillas out of the fight with no intention to ever engage" or have people not started trying that yet?

Yeah we don't do that here. I had a list that I played at Adepticon where I could do that, but I think if I had played it better it would have had them in the midst of the fighting, jamming things up and preventing movement. It wasn't fun for ME, so I stopped doing that. Mostly our max flot count up here is 2 a list.

6 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

Perhaps it was the genie out of the bottle problem once one person started doing it, but most flotillas I encounter now are nowhere near the other ships and you won't be shooting anything else if you are shooting them. I am beginning to think a core divergence between views is "do you exist in a meta where people have begun deliberately hiding flotillas out of the fight with no intention to ever engage" or have people not started trying that yet?

It's been tried here, but not embraced. I can only speak for myself, but flotillas are too useful near the fight for me to do it.

Activation delays seem to have peak value in turn 2. After that the value diminishes quickly. Relay is handy, but those squadrons tend to die fast as people here know how strong Strategic can be.

For myself I find flotillas very valuable near my fleet and keep them there for that reason. 18 or 23 points for a single flack die is actually a solid buy. I also use Comms Net frequently and find the utility of flotillas as a blocker against Demo or MC-30s to be extremely high. As I don't feel the need to preserve the activation much past turn 3 using them for other jobs is a better value than hiding.

6 minutes ago, pt106 said:

I was toying with the idea of killing flotillas long range before and even with 5 dice and guaranteed accuracy there was no way to one shot a flotilla long range unless you get multiple double hits or a crit that ends up being a direct hit.

Pretty much, but if I get 2ish damage on it that forces it into a whole new situation. Ramming KILLS it then.

3 minutes ago, pt106 said:

I was toying with the idea of killing flotillas long range before and even with 5 dice and guaranteed accuracy there was no way to one shot a flotilla long range unless you get multiple double hits (or a double with a second accuracy) or a crit that ends up being a direct hit.

My current Liberty build uses this build:

[ flagship ] MC80 Battle Cruiser (103 points)
- General Madine ( 30 points)
- Raymus Antilles ( 7 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- H9 Turbolasers ( 8 points)
- Spinal Armament ( 9 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 176 total ship cost

A CF command + Raymus token on turn 2 kills a flotilla most times. I don't know the math on that, but my red dice are less fickle right now. Maybe I am due a correction to the average soon...

I am actually considering a change from SA to QTC to take away both tokens from the flotillas, but I haven't tried it out on the table yet.

I'm curious, because at my local meta people who try lifeboats or dodgy flots just get their butts kicked....

Is there a way to look at the data for average bid and objectives chosen for fleets with 2+ floats at 6-7 activations?

Do fleets with 6-7 activations typically have a low bid? Are the objectives they chose making them more powerful than they should be?

This phenomena of killer non-engaging lifeboat flotillas has me completely puzzled...

1 minute ago, itzSteve said:

A CF command + Raymus token on turn 2 kills a flotilla most times. I don't know the math on that, but my red dice are less fickle right now. Maybe I am due a correction to the average soon...

6 dice with reroll should do it.

2 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I'm curious, because at my local meta people who try lifeboats or dodgy flots just get their butts kicked....

Is there a way to look at the data for average bid and objectives chosen for fleets with 2+ floats at 6-7 activations?

Do fleets with 6-7 activations typically have a low bid? Are the objectives they chose making them more powerful than they should be?

This phenomena of killer non-engaging lifeboat flotillas has me completely puzzled...

I can run this data for Wave 5 regional fleets (I already posted some statistics in Regional Data thread). I would assume that 6 activation fleet bids would be all over the place (as its a mix of squad heavy fleets and last-first strikers) and 7 activation fleets would have high bids as they'll be low-squad last-first strikers.

A few quick points:

I think @Baltanok made the point earlier that there is not enough data on 6+ activation fleets. I know I have only run one at a single regional so far (MD). I did not win but was undefeated on the day and didn't get a chance to play either of the top two.

Steve - how are you getting that in range on turn 2? Doesn't this rely on the other go moving a flotilla towards you? And, likewise, as PT said, hard to kill at long range (though at least plausible with raymus, CF, and Spinal).

Just now, pt106 said:

I can run this data for Wave 5 regional fleets (I already posted some statistics in Regional Data thread). I would assume that 6 activation fleet bids would be all over the place (as its a mix of squad heavy fleets and last-first strikers) and 7 activation fleets would have high bids as they'll be low-squad last-first strikers.

Thanks!

8 minutes ago, shmitty said:

I....find the utility of flotillas as a blocker against Demo or MC-30s to be extremely high.

This, all the this, as a Rebel.

16 minutes ago, pt106 said:

I was toying with the idea of killing flotillas long range before and even with 5 dice and guaranteed accuracy there was no way to one shot a flotilla long range unless you get multiple double hits (or a double with a second accuracy) or a crit that ends up being a direct hit.

Ackbar Pickle with H9 will get the job done pretty much every time.

This is how I currently build it

MC80 Assault Cruiser (114 points)
- Damage Control Officer ( 5 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Reinforced Blast Doors ( 5 points)
- H9 Turbolasers ( 8 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 151 total ship cost

DCO, ECM, and RBD make it a tough nut to crack, and that amount of red dice with a guaranteed accuracy can pop flotillas from range at ease. Add defiance for 5 points and all those flotillas they activated first for delay can now have a blue thrown at them for leading shots if needed

So to be clear, you guys are willing to spend 151 and 146 points (I subtracted Madine since he could be on any ship) respectively to chase down my single 18 point ship on a board edge in the far corner, and kill it no earlier than turn 3?

I am unsure I could make a better argument in favor of the naked delay flotilla.