1 minute ago, ovinomanc3r said:

What about carriers (without relay)? what about slicers tools against 1 command ships?

If I take cluster bombs, point defense reroute, or quad laser cannons and my opponent doesn't bring squadrons then they are wasted points, as would be slicer tools against a 1 command ship if flotillas activation was moved to the squadron phase. Carriers without relay would be more vulnerable as well but it is my belief they should be.

I'm not saying its the best solution, but it seemed easier than removing relay, or scatter. Everything on the flotillas could still be used in most situations and they would no longer be the focus of lists but rather support lists which is how I always viewed they should act.

4 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Here we see a picture of Master Yoda, shortly before his lack of wisdom and leadership gets these younglings killed.

1. Cluster bombs and PDR come after squadrons while Slicer come before flotillas activating later.

2. Flotillas carrier that activate two squadrons during the squadrons phase well... just stupid.

1 hour ago, geek19 said:

Your tone is so helpful, how can I listen to more of what you say?

It wasnt me who said that.

1 minute ago, Democratus said:

Here we see a picture of Master Yoda, shortly before his lack of wisdom and leadership gets these younglings killed.

This one is from episode II. When Obi was looking for Kamino

4 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

1. Cluster bombs and PDR come after squadrons while Slicer come before flotillas activating later.

2. Flotillas carrier that activate two squadrons during the squadrons phase well... just stupid.

Cluster bombs triggers whenever a squadron resolves an attack against you, either during the squadron phase or during any ship activation through squadron command.

His point was: flotillas activating right before the squadron phase, basically, being forced to be activated as your last ship activation. Can see an option there, but cannot see when it became stupid, I've read way more stupid things about flotillas around. Stripping them from the scatter token for instance.

11 hours ago, geek19 said:

Whoa whoa whoa. I don't want to get rid of the scatter. Yes it's harder to kill them, but removing scatter asks them to die. I can't remember when it was said (roughly 3 days ago?) By (Ard? Maaaaaybe?) But the flotillas are only a major advantage round 2-3 before the fight starts. Removing the scatter is just ASKING for them to be deployed far away and never be near the action. Hard stop, don't want this idea.

I'd think a lot of what FFG is doing next wave will counter some. Sloan and TIEs hitting flotillas send the scatter to spent mode or they take a damage. I'm not sure what the hammerheads come with, but let's see what's revealed next wave before we start taking defense tokens away from things.

How about a one and done scatter?

Meaning, once you use it you lose it.

Just now, xerpo said:

Cluster bombs triggers whenever a squadron resolves an attack against you, either during the squadron phase or during any ship activation through squadron command.

His point was: flotillas activating right before the squadron phase, basically, being forced to be activated as your last ship activation. Can see an option there, but cannot see when it became stupid, I've read way more stupid things about flotillas around. Stripping them from the scatter token for instance.

He pointed Cluster as waste points against no squadrons fleet. It is right. The difference cames when we know that Slicer actually work against 1 command ships now but if it is changed it won't. Cluster bombs was designed knowing that no squadrons fleet exist. Slicer tools was designed knowing flotillas are ships and activate during the ship phase.

It becomes stupid when a flotilla that activates during the squadron phase can activate 2 squadrons what we actually activate during this phase.

I just say this change more things that are not seen as problems right now.

2 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

1. Cluster bombs and PDR come after squadrons while Slicer come before flotillas activating later.

2. Flotillas carrier that activate two squadrons during the squadrons phase well... just stupid.

I was using them as examples of upgrades that have little value against specific lists. Pushing flotillas to the squadron phase would mean that you would be determining a multiple dial ships' next command in the following turn. Which i think is still a good value for the point cost. I could suicide a flotilla to make sure the demolisher isn't getting his nav token next turn or that isd that I've dropped to 3 hull doesn't get that repair command off.

Flotillas would still be activating squadrons before rogue and non commanded squadrons. So the hierarchy would be combat vessels>flotillas>squadrons. I understand that it removes flotillas as an option to main line carrier.

The general idea i was getting at was to reduce the effectiveness of flotillas and make more big ship lists viable.

Slicer tools is an interesting point to raise.

They force early activation of combat shops, actively countering activation delay tactics.

5 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Slicer tools is an interesting point to raise.

They force early activation of combat shops, actively countering activation delay tactics.

My local meta doesn't use them often, and its a valid point. As is the point cost of slicer tools.

Why do a lot of the "fixes" to flotillas people keep suggesting sound like ways to deny them being ships?

"Ok, so it doesn't get defense tokens, and it can't move during the turn, and it can't hold anything or do anything, especially flotilla command upgrades, but there, bring your flotillas. Solved it everyone! Go home, fixed Armada! Medal ceremony for me!"

I definitely see both sides of this argument. I think @thecactusman17's thread just continued the argument against and for the current use of flotillas in the meta.

I'm still troubled by voices ( @Reinholt@Caldias @WuFame @WWPDSteven, etc) that are really feeling a sort of fizzling or burn out with the way the game is going. I also understand the other side, @Ardaedheland @Ginkapo @shmitty that don't see eye to eye on this. (I'm on this side, but I'd argue that it is not a creativity problem at all, that it is just whether or not you're okay with what's going on in the game right now. )

I hope that those voices having issues with the game state stick with it. They would be missed (if they got stuck in Carbonite.) However, that would totally be the healthy thing to do at this point, if the game just isn't working for you.

On a funny related note, I've recently introduced the game to my son, who absolutely has hated Flotillas from the start. It is easy to see both sides of the story when your spawn is on the other side...

9 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

I definitely see both sides of this argument. I think @thecactusman17's thread just continued the argument against and for the current use of flotillas in the meta.

I'm still troubled by voices ( @Reinholt@Caldias @WuFame @WWPDSteven, etc) that are really feeling a sort of fizzling or burn out with the way the game is going. I also understand the other side, @Ardaedheland @Ginkapo @shmitty that don't see eye to eye on this. (I'm on this side, but I'd argue that it is not a creativity problem at all, that it is just whether or not you're okay with what's going on in the game right now. )

I hope that those voices having issues with the game state stick with it. They would be missed (if they got stuck in Carbonite.) However, that would totally be the healthy thing to do at this point, if the game just isn't working for you.

On a funny related note, I've recently introduced the game to my son, who absolutely has hated Flotillas from the start. It is easy to see both sides of the story when your spawn is on the other side...

He must unlearn... What he has learned.

In actuality, why does he hate them?

10 minutes ago, geek19 said:

He must unlearn... What he has learned.

In actuality, why does he hate them?

It is so funny. I'll try to put his view in my words, but I think overall he justs think they are stupid. (And by the way, he is 22. Not a child)

First of all, he plays Rebels (rebel scum) and he despises the fact that they don't have guns like every other ship.

Second, I think he is more into the "tanky" builds. He hates how easy they go "pop."

What's funny is I tell him that is what they do, and that they can support his tanky builds, but he wants none of that. He goes all "non-flotilla".

33 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

On a funny related note, I've recently introduced the game to my son, who absolutely has hated Flotillas from the start. It is easy to see both sides of the story when your spawn is on the other side...

10 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

He goes all "non-flotilla".

Sounds like a good man. Flotillas lead to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to my current 3-7 W/L streak because i don't like bringing flotillas.

I asked his rebel @$$ why he hates them.

Quoting the Ninja spawn:

"Mainly because they're too ubiquitous, which in games like this usually means they're either too useful for what they cost or the meta is just obsessed with them, although I kind of think it's the first here, maybe both though. "

"I also just hate including a ship largely because of its low cost. They are very useful so I use them a bunch but I kind of hate that I have so much use for them, if that makes sense. There are not enough negatives to them, but they also kind of feel a lot of times like they're just in there to delay the game, so you have an extra activation. "

"So kind of like the ramming vettes, it's kind of feels cheeky to me using them to manipulate the game like that, even though I admit it works great. "

15 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

It is so funny. I'll try to put his view in my words, but I think overall he justs think they are stupid. (And by the way, he is 22. Not a child)

He goes all "non-flotilla".

Oops!

"He is too old. There is already too much anger in him."

16 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

First of all, he plays Rebels (rebel scum) and he despises the fact that they don't have guns like every other ship.

Second, I think he is more into the "tanky" builds. He hates how easy they go "pop."

What's funny is I tell him that is what they do, and that they can support his tanky builds, but he wants none of that. He goes all "non-flotilla".

They have guns! Just like the raider-ii, it's technically a ship that exists!

And I'm intrigued by a tanky build without flotillas.

Spitballing here, what if flotillas had a rule that made them worth more points when destroyed? Like a 2/3x modifier? They still retain all that makes them good but it adds an increased risk.

My immediate concern with my own idea is that if the point is to toss them to the side away from battle then it doesnt matter what they are worth upon destruction, but of course the flipside is suddenly that flotilla hunter is making back its points.

2 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

Spitballing here, what if flotillas had a rule that made them worth more points when destroyed? Like a 2/3x modifier? They still retain all that makes them good but it adds an increased risk.

My immediate concern with my own idea is that if the point is to toss them to the side away from battle then it doesnt matter what they are worth upon destruction, but of course the flipside is suddenly that flotilla hunter is making back its points.

I don't grok what you are trying to convey

Looking for benefits.

As clearer answer: most part of the discussion go after flotilla nerfing, activation mechanic adjustments and so. You just suggested to increase their "score" value making the investments on killing flotilla (something that was discussed too) a better thing. That is fine. I just found funny your point of view. You don't want to do killing flotillas easier, you want to do killing flotillas a thing.

I think I said it somewhere here before, but if you really want to stop people just hiding with their flotillas just have them not prevent tabling.

Essentially if all you have left on the table is squadrons and flotillas, you lose and your opponent gets 400 points.

Fixes the bad behavior and adds risk to over-reliance on flotillas for activations.