I notice nobody's talking about squadrons shooting flotillas in this discussion...

15 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

You've hit the nail on the head. The current state of the game makes activation delays not just an issue about combat performance (ships and squadrons in attack range) but also about understanding where the game is literally going at the moment. We can see this by comparing the movement and combat systems of X-Wing and Armada. but also, we can see this by the frequent bane of new players which is deployment.

Unlike in X-Wing, the relatively stunted abilities of Armada ships to turn means that turning to track an enemy with your best combat facing or to be in range to activate squadrons is utterly crucial. Out of position ships may never contribute in any capacity to the progress of a given match, especially when the strict 6 turn limit is taken into account. In X-Wing, this is mitigated by relatively high maneuverability and unlimited rounds, so an out of position ship can maximize its speed or maneuverability at will to turn back into the fight or otherwise work to position where they want to be. Because of this, the ability to go early and block an opponent is crucial in X-Wing because it pins them in place for a crucial moment before they can escape. After all ships have maneuvered into position, all ships then open fire at the same time.

In Armada, going first when not in combat range is rarely anything except a hindrance, because it gives properly commanded ships an opportunity to dodge out of the way entirely or even fire onto the ship that just moved. With the exception of Demolisher, it is rarely even possible to do damage unless already in combat range.

A lot of players have this as an issue with additional activations, but my issue is that those activations can't be countered. This is also a reason I am concerned in previous posts about Rieekan. Activation control is a critical element of the game by the nature of its design. If there isn't an ability to mitigate enemy activations, then it is impossible for a person with activation disadvantage to meaningfully reverse or overcome the situation regardless of initiative.

The only method of combating activation advantage in Armada is by killing opposing ships. The simplest way to fix any activation advantage scenario is to kill the ships that are causing the issue. If the primary issue in the game is excessive cheap ship activations, then the only meaningful way to combat that issue is to make those ships easier to kill.

And that is why I'm advocating for removing scatter.

I was hinting at this earlier in another thread.

Scatter is astronomically easier and more cost efficient to deal with in squadron battles.

Do we replace scatter or straight up get rid of it?

36 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

I was hinting at this earlier in another thread.

Scatter is astronomically easier and more cost efficient to deal with in squadron battles.

Do we replace scatter or straight up get rid of it?

Whoa whoa whoa. I don't want to get rid of the scatter. Yes it's harder to kill them, but removing scatter asks them to die. I can't remember when it was said (roughly 3 days ago?) By (Ard? Maaaaaybe?) But the flotillas are only a major advantage round 2-3 before the fight starts. Removing the scatter is just ASKING for them to be deployed far away and never be near the action. Hard stop, don't want this idea.

I'd think a lot of what FFG is doing next wave will counter some. Sloan and TIEs hitting flotillas send the scatter to spent mode or they take a damage. I'm not sure what the hammerheads come with, but let's see what's revealed next wave before we start taking defense tokens away from things.

50 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Whoa whoa whoa. I don't want to get rid of the scatter. Yes it's harder to kill them, but removing scatter asks them to die. I can't remember when it was said (roughly 3 days ago?) By (Ard? Maaaaaybe?) But the flotillas are only a major advantage round 2-3 before the fight starts. Removing the scatter is just ASKING for them to be deployed far away and never be near the action. Hard stop, don't want this idea.

I'd think a lot of what FFG is doing next wave will counter some. Sloan and TIEs hitting flotillas send the scatter to spent mode or they take a damage. I'm not sure what the hammerheads come with, but let's see what's revealed next wave before we start taking defense tokens away from things.

I agree. If you want to stop the running-away thing at the game design level, you need to increase the opportunity cost of doing so. They need a driving impetus to be in the fight, a strong disincentive to not be in the fight, or some combination of both. How precisely to do that without more auto-includes or sweeping erratas is a question for more creative heads than mine, but simply keeping the same thing but beating them with the nerf-bat isn't the answer.

Making them more susceptible to plink-plink damage defeats the whole purpose. You'll just push them further from the fleet action and edge out the ones that aren't doing anything controversial like running away as empty activations or parking to do the relay-bot thing.

There are already solutions available in the game for handling them once they're already in threat range. The challenge is doing so before they get there or while they're actively evading.

Relay is what even allowed this to happen. Prior to relay, if you wanted your flotilla to do anything at all, it had to be at long range of either your ships or squadrons, within striking distance of the enemy fleet.

Now, as I guess everyone in Reinholts meta is abusing to the enjoyment of no one, they can remain however far they want to away from both friendly and enemy units while still contributing somewhat...

16 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

I agree. If you want to stop the running-away thing at the game design level, you need to increase the opportunity cost of doing so. They need a driving impetus to be in the fight, a strong disincentive to not be in the fight, or some combination of both. How precisely to do that without more auto-includes or sweeping erratas is a question for more creative heads than mine, but simply keeping the same thing but beating them with the nerf-bat isn't the answer.

This, all the this. And i think that's a lot of the anger and vitriol in the threads too. I'M not using the flotillas as an empty activation off on the edge, so why do i have to suffer a nerf to my flotillas and their uses because someone else is doing something with them? To quote Office Space, "Why should I change, he's the one who sucks." That's what I think the Commander on a flotilla argument boils down to, that's what a lot of the More Flotillas = More Better List crowd is coming from. And that's where I think a lot of the Anti-antiflotilla crowd (so, kinda pro-flot?) is too. We aren't leaving them off to the side, when they can be in the middle of the action, swatting squadrons and getting in the way of other stuff, so how are flotillas a problem (in our minds)?

This topic again?

Rules change suggestions again?

The loud minority at it again?

Am I surprised? Nah, this is the Internet where everyone is an expert. But how many threads on this subject are there? And will I be told to stay out because this is another thread meant to strong arm FFG into rule changes to fit a small group of players game style? Probably. Do I care? About as much as the complainers do about the data presented daily showing there is no Flotilla problem when you look at the real picture and not limited anecdotal stories.

(I have come to the point anytime someone says we have to change the rules to an established game with little evidence I instantly roll my eyes as a natural reflex.)

have fun.

1 hour ago, geek19 said:

Whoa whoa whoa. I don't want to get rid of the scatter. Yes it's harder to kill them, but removing scatter asks them to die. I can't remember when it was said (roughly 3 days ago?) By (Ard? Maaaaaybe?) But the flotillas are only a major advantage round 2-3 before the fight starts. Removing the scatter is just ASKING for them to be deployed far away and never be near the action. Hard stop, don't want this idea.

I'd think a lot of what FFG is doing next wave will counter some. Sloan and TIEs hitting flotillas send the scatter to spent mode or they take a damage. I'm not sure what the hammerheads come with, but let's see what's revealed next wave before we start taking defense tokens away from things.

This is why it should be connected with changes to Relay.

Flotillas were imagined to be a ship with minimal chances of survival in a combat environment that would contribute by supporting fleets from the rear. They would stick close to their bundle of ships or squadrons, then peel off before getting into combat. That's all fine and good. However, what it means is that when you load up on 2-4 Flotillas to delay activations, they should all be getting closer and closer to the target as they are all coming closer and closer to enemy combat ships and squadrons.

What this means is that flotillas jumping out should be at severe threat of getting hit in return by forward elements of the enemy fleet. However, because of the way Scatter works, they will only be under threat if they are either hit by an overwhelming attack that includes an accuracy or multiple successful squadron attacks in quick succession. So squadrons damage flotillas if there are several concentrated on a single ship. This really doesn't fix the issue of flotillas being largely immune to faster and more powerful combat ships from both sides. It also doesn't do anything if the fighter ball isn't particularly large, or if any squadrons are caught up in an anti-squadron fight.

The thing is, there is no good disincentive to not at some point run a flotilla completely away from the fight at speed and rely on the scatter. The reason for this is because, as noted above, the very design ethos of Flotillas is that they should never be within the combat zone. Except for a circumstance in which there is an overwhelming likelihood of destroying the combat threat, even escorting in friendly squadrons should still result in the immediate destruction of the flotillas.

So lets say that you are right, and Flotillas proceed to begin running away from the fight? Well, that just provides an incentive for players to start bringing ships that can chase them down and attack. Alternatively, it reduces the number of effective carrier and support ships in the list. And that will lead to changes in the meta to reduce flotilla spam to manageable levels.

And once flotillas can no longer do more than be an empty activation, We will see a drastic change in how they are played. Because in most cases, you don't need more than 1 "empty" activation in a list, and it typically works far better to have a functional activation doing something instead or to increase the capability of a functional activation than have multiple empty activations.

You're not a game designer. Apply to FFG to be a game tester if you really want to change the game that bad or talk to your local group and house rule things. You're not going to strong arm FFG into changes without evidence.

9 minutes ago, Beatty said:

You're not a game designer. Apply to FFG to be a game tester if you really want to change the game that bad or talk to your local group and house rule things. You're not going to strong arm FFG into changes without evidence.

There are a number of particular reasons I do not think I could effectively participate in a playtesting program, none of which have to do with my willingness to do so or interest in assisting the developers.

1 hour ago, thecactusman17 said:

So lets say that you are right, and Flotillas proceed to begin running away from the fight? Well, that just provides an incentive for players to start bringing ships that can chase them down and attack. Alternatively, it reduces the number of effective carrier and support ships in the list. And that will lead to changes in the meta to reduce flotilla spam to manageable levels.

I mean... I agree with you on this point, but how is this different from what's happening already? Furthermore, how would removing scatter impact this? In most cases, flotilla proliferation is already kept at bay in the meta at large by people who bring counters. Just like any other "this is the best option, except for when I run into that one counter..." The problem comes when nobody brings counters and everybody just goes for the activation arms race...

Well, I'm making assumptions about other people's metas again, so I'll just let that lie.

It does kind of look like my sneaking suspicion is being confirmed as the discussion goes on, though: relay, not flotillas per se, is the root cause of many people's grievances. I wouldn't be surprised to see a nerf to relay defining Relay X as X squadrons per turn rather than per activation, associated accounting issues notwithstanding.

My issue is that long range Accuracy die reliability means that short and medium range ships often cannot attack a fleeing flotilla at all, and long range ships cannot reliably do damage.

Take a look in particular at Imperial combat ships. With the exception of the ISD and Arquitens, they have no ships capable of engaging with a substantial number of dice that can also chase down a speed 3 ship. The Arquitens can match the speed, but will be immediately outmaneuvered. The Raider is faster but cannot attack at long range so good luck getting an attack if you don't nearly ram them. The VSD can't even keep up, much less keep it's guns on target. The Gladiator is utterly ignored because it has a snowball's chance in hell of actually getting an accuracy or a double arc even if it is Demolisher. The ISD can probably manage it, but then you've thrown an entire ISD at a 18-30 point ship.

On the Rebel side, there's only one ship really capable of doing this reliably without sacrificing combat power and that's the MC30 Torpedo Frigate (with speed 4, H9 turbolasers and APTs). When you look at the remaining ships there aren't too many that can also do this. Liberty MC80s can take the H9s plus a bonus red die to offset their lack of reliability but cost a fortune. Home One can help ships but after getting the Home One itself the ships which can take large red dice batteries don't have many attack dice. For the most part, they're in the same boat with the same problems. CR90s don't throw enough dice. Peltas are too slow. Assault Frigates can't turn terribly well and have to approach from an awkward position to stay on target. Liberty and Home One MC80s are too expensive for the job they're being asked to perform, and of course that Home One MC80 can't affect itself and also can't attack more than one target per facing to hurt another combat ship (or even a second flotilla). The CR90B is worth mentioning, in that it throws a bunch of blue dice to slightly improve the chances of accuracy results. But just like the Raider, it still has a strong chance to miss entirely and the side shot won't do enough damage to justify throwing away the scatter.

12 hours ago, Reinholt said:

the dissenting opinions I want to hear are those of good players winning major tournaments who disagree. You would be one, but you used the exact same flotilla delay tactics to win San Antonio so you can hardly claim it's not good!

Alright, I'll be that guy and take the last word then.

I obviously don't claim that my list not good, and have never claimed it's not good.

I absolutely claim that a multi-ship stack of flotilla activation delays is not optimal in every list, and that it is not immune to being countered. Just like the Rieekan Aces before it. And the Clonisher. And the Ackbar Conga Line. And Garm's Guppies. And a CR90 on Intel Sweep.

In fact I know of three or four different specific ways that my particular fleet can be pretty hard-countered, because they've been done to me and worked.

None of those counters has involved trying to activation race a list with 7 activations, because I don't think it can't be done effectively (with, like... two exceptions). Just like the right answer to any list that's optimized to do X well is not to try to beat it by doing X better, but to identify what aspect is he sacrificing that I can exploit to get around the aspect he's optimized for? You don't try to counter a 14x TIE Bomber list with 13x Y-Wings, you do it with 5 A-wings (or Ciena, hehe). You don't try to counter a 120-point Imperial Swarm Aces ball with moar fighters, you do it by blowing up their freaking carriers with Demolisher.

That's what Gink means when he says the problem is a lack of creativity. I'm not condoning his manner in that particular example, for which he has apologised, but he's not wrong. This is such an easy trap to fall into, though, and every single one of us does it to a degree. We see a certain tactic, approach, mindset work for somebody else and we try to roll the concept into our own fleet. Which is fine, and kind of the whole driving force behind a fluid meta, but when your whole meta starts to believe that a certain tactic is the only possible way to be successful and just spins it into an arms race to the bottom... yeah, I can see why it would ruin the game for you. Which is really a shame, particularly given all the depth that I'm seeing in the game right now.

All I'm saying is, try taking a step back and looking at how you might approach the problem from a different direction. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I'm completely convinced that there is one.

11 hours ago, Madaghmire said:

It goes like this;.

So your saying I actually need to pull all my ramblings onto a blog? Would give me a platform to showcase my seminal lists too.

Sigh. I do have a wordpress account somewhere. Are we sure Steel Squadron can take the competition?

my remark to this thread is redundant, I know, but for me also the prob is not the scatter or the evade, its the relay option.

whatever my opinion, I can live with ffg never changing flotilla rules (from admirals to scatter), but I am sure they will, at some point, eventually.

and ards point is spot on, players always adapt in the end.

1 hour ago, Ardaedhel said:

All I'm saying is, try taking a step back and looking at how you might approach the problem from a different direction. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I'm completely convinced that there is one.

I've said this before, but I'll restate it here:

Kind of funny that X-wing gets nefs that force ships/upgrades to be in the fight, rather than staying away from it, while in armada we get the opposite.

Almost as if it's deliberate.

3 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

My issue is that long range Accuracy die reliability means that short and medium range ships often cannot attack a fleeing flotilla at all, and long range ships cannot reliably do damage.

Take a look in particular at Imperial combat ships. With the exception of the ISD and Arquitens, they have no ships capable of engaging with a substantial number of dice that can also chase down a speed 3 ship. The Arquitens can match the speed, but will be immediately outmaneuvered. The Raider is faster but cannot attack at long range so good luck getting an attack if you don't nearly ram them. The VSD can't even keep up, much less keep it's guns on target. The Gladiator is utterly ignored because it has a snowball's chance in hell of actually getting an accuracy or a double arc even if it is Demolisher. The ISD can probably manage it, but then you've thrown an entire ISD at a 18-30 point ship.

On the Rebel side, there's only one ship really capable of doing this reliably without sacrificing combat power and that's the MC30 Torpedo Frigate (with speed 4, H9 turbolasers and APTs). When you look at the remaining ships there aren't too many that can also do this. Liberty MC80s can take the H9s plus a bonus red die to offset their lack of reliability but cost a fortune. Home One can help ships but after getting the Home One itself the ships which can take large red dice batteries don't have many attack dice. For the most part, they're in the same boat with the same problems. CR90s don't throw enough dice. Peltas are too slow. Assault Frigates can't turn terribly well and have to approach from an awkward position to stay on target. Liberty and Home One MC80s are too expensive for the job they're being asked to perform, and of course that Home One MC80 can't affect itself and also can't attack more than one target per facing to hurt another combat ship (or even a second flotilla). The CR90B is worth mentioning, in that it throws a bunch of blue dice to slightly improve the chances of accuracy results. But just like the Raider, it still has a strong chance to miss entirely and the side shot won't do enough damage to justify throwing away the scatter.

What happens if you throw 3 CR90 shots with TRCs at one? Either the scatter is gone and the evade is red or vice versa. So overwhelming their tokens is still an option. The counter argument of "then I spent X to kill Y" is how Armada works, especially on the Rebel side. You gotta overwhelm the other ships and all.

ISDs can still take H9s, and that's good no matter what ship you're fighting against. Home One still helps every ship within distance 5. We can't turn flotillas into easy explosions, because then no one will take them.

I'm with @Ardaedhel in that there has to be some way of fighting them by thinking differently about things. What's wrong with the LMC80 and H9s? Or putting Home One with several other ships to have them help in the fight?

I mentioned this earlier in the thread but it took a few hours for a mod to okay it to post, but what if you just move flotilla activation to the beginning of the squadron phase.

If it's a terrible idea then just ignore my ramblings.

Your are so full of yourselves discussing big time strategics and throwing arguments to each others face that none noticed and figured out this comment:

20 hours ago, jrh1783 said:

What if flotillas activated at the beginning of the squadron phase instead?

This could be an actual solution for activation b*uTthurts.

7 minutes ago, xerpo said:

Your are so full of yourselves discussing big time strategics and throwing arguments to each others face that none noticed and figured out this comment:

This could be an actual solution for activation b*uTthurts.

Your tone is so helpful, how can I listen to more of what you say?

10 minutes ago, jrh1783 said:

I mentioned this earlier in the thread but it took a few hours for a mod to okay it to post, but what if you just move flotilla activation to the beginning of the squadron phase.

If it's a terrible idea then just ignore my ramblings.

It's an interesting idea, but it creates the problem of people trying to push squadrons with them that aren't able to activate until later in the turn. If I need to push them to kill a ship earlier in the turn, and the only thing in range is a flotilla, that's not really fair to me. Same issue with repair crews I feel, and slicer tools. It's an indirect nerf to those when the flotillas with them are actually more in the fight.

Are flotillas really that dangerous? If you bring a flotilla and so does your opponent, both of you will have difficulty with sinking that ship if you run with it. That does not mean you will lose, just have to focus on another ship or squads. Kill of the squads and the flotilla has no bite. Kill off the more dangerous ships, and it just sitting there and you still win.

At most people bring maybe 2? maybe 3? Between 38 to 84 points for ships that yes difficult to destroy but after you use your squad counter, they are wasted points for the opponent.

Relay did make them useful and it is fun to see played and to play them. I do see people get upset when their list they practice and practice no longer gets the 10-1 table they always want. Time to change the list.

EDIT: already pointed.

6 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

That's what Gink means when he says the problem is a lack of creativity. I'm not condoning his manner in that particular example, for which he has apologised, but he's not wrong. This is such an easy trap to fall into, though, and every single one of us does it to a degree. We see a certain tactic, approach, mindset work for somebody else and we try to roll the concept into our own fleet. Which is fine, and kind of the whole driving force behind a fluid meta, but when your whole meta starts to believe that a certain tactic is the only possible way to be successful and just spins it into an arms race to the bottom... yeah, I can see why it would ruin the game for you. Which is really a shame, particularly given all the depth that I'm seeing in the game right now.

All I'm saying is, try taking a step back and looking at how you might approach the problem from a different direction. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I'm completely convinced that there is one.

This cannot be the answer. Clearly these players who want a change to the activation war has tried this. There has been a lot of push back because telling any who plays competitively to take H9 or use Demo is missing the point. They already know how to counter flotillas. Killing flotillas is not the problem. The problem is they feel forced to take at least 2 flotillas every time they build a fleet. And from that, other issues pop up, like Steve and Reinholt talking about flotillas skirting the edge of the map doing the Relay delay. This isn't a discussion with a new guy who wants to know how to kill the carrier. It's players with a lot of experience saying "Hey, I've noticed this trend in fleet builds. What's going on? Why is this happening? How effective is high activation fleets? I don't like this trend, how can we fix it?"