So, bear with me here, but...

What if the issue is not flotillas, but the increasingly deadly direction the game is going?

Activation advantage has been a thing since the very beginning. At the very least, it was identified and exploited as a mechanic early in W2 (Clonisher), but it was only really exploited by the most deadly single activation in the game at the time, the completely pimped out Demo.

Think about it: what is it that we're trying to accomplish with activation delays? Part of it is actionable intelligence, knowing where your ships will be before I commit mine. Part of it is trying to force your ships into my threat range. Both of those considerations increase in importance as the treat presented by my ships increases. If I am very likely to kill your ship in one activation if it trundles into range of my ISD2 and Decimators, or my Yavaris B-Wings, it becomes game-winningly critical that you not let that happen.

I dunno, don't really have a point here, just sort of thinking out loud.

2 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

Also telling is that I am not seeing what I was looking for: "I do X. It does not have flotillas and I still win consistently, including tournaments."

I took a Double Interdictor List.

Its first iteration had a single flotilla.

Its current iteration does not. Because the activation padding was actually counter-intuitive to the Nose-Punch.

It has won 100% of the tournaments it has been in.

Regrettably, I cannot give more data, because I don't get to borrow Interdictors or attend tournaments as a player, as I run them.

So its not what you're after, because you did say you wanted a specific response and I can't give that to you.

1 minute ago, Ardaedhel said:

So, bear with me here, but...

What if the issue is not flotillas, but the increasingly deadly direction the game is going?

Activation advantage has been a thing since the very beginning. At the very least, it was identified and exploited as a mechanic early in W2 (Clonisher), but it was only really exploited by the most deadly single activation in the game at the time, the completely pimped out Demo.

Think about it: what is it that we're trying to accomplish with activation delays? Part of it is actionable intelligence, knowing where your ships will be before I commit mine. Part of it is trying to force your ships into my threat range. Both of those considerations increase in importance as the treat presented by my ships increases. If I am very likely to kill your ship in one activation if it trundles into range of my ISD2 and Decimators, or my Yavaris B-Wings, it becomes game-winningly critical that you not let that happen.

I dunno, don't really have a point here, just sort of thinking out loud.

So maybe it's less that activations are too powerful, but rather the collection of synergies developed since the beginning have become so increasing deadly that it could balance a game on who uses theirs first?

3 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

But what do you do, then, if someone in your group starts running it and consistently beating everyone?

I'd shove my h-9" Pickle into the soft, moist center of their fleet and spray hot red dice all over those flotillas

Amusingly, whilst I see your argument, I would take that 4 activation list.

Its highly efficient at killing Relay and deals with small black dice ships by trapping them and tanking the pain. No amount of activation advantage helps my opponent get out of that.

Mandy. Family friendly forum.....

Ard - I think that is the other side of the two-sided sword. Denial tactics matter more because the cost of engagement is higher.

Have you tested the IA activation delay rule in any games yet? I found it makes alpha striking a lot harder and rewards engagement because you can't just make the other guy blunder into your guns in size.

edit: To mandalorian - what would you do if their fleet has no center, as I previously described? By turn three I have six ships, all of which are outside of long range of each other. Where is my center? Or are you just shoving your pickle into empty space?

7 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

Everyone is talking in circles, but point me to the non-flotilla lists consistently winning at events with a decent sample size and I will change my tune, because that's concrete evidence I wrong. I looked for this!

I don't think anybody is saying this. Personally, I'm saying it's not a big deal that there are a one or two, sometimes even three, flotillas in most lists. Indeed, if you read to the end of that thread where you called everybody but your bros stupid, Undeadguy pointed out that they were pretty clearly intended to be fairly ubiquitous.

2 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

I don't think anybody is saying this. Personally, I'm saying it's not a big deal that there are a one or two, sometimes even three, flotillas in most lists. Indeed, if you read to the end of that thread where you called everybody but your bros stupid, Undeadguy pointed out that they were pretty clearly intended to be fairly ubiquitous.

This is why I said ongoing discussion is pointless, and the forum has gone toxic.

I did not say that. Go find the exact quote. What I said is that most of the other good players I know are in a similar boat on the ubiquity of flotillas and that the dissenting opinions I want to hear are those of good players winning major tournaments who disagree. You would be one, but you used the exact same flotilla delay tactics to win San Antonio so you can hardly claim it's not good!

What I am tired of is people who cannot consistently win or place well also acting like they know how to win and place well against the dominant strategy. That's not an ego thing, it's just that when Tom Brady and Mark Sanchez disagree on how to play QB, I'm going to go with Brady's opinion.

I am going to make good on my statement to bail out. It's been nice, guys, but this is legitimately going nowhere and I am confident the evidence will continue to mount that flotilla activation issues will dominate the meta until genuinely fixed. Enjoy.

Not sure if IA example works.

Movement premeasurements are easier. Activations are asymmetrical as one could have 1 mini and other could have 3 changing the number of attacks each activation has. Every activation can move-shoot or shoot-move making the engagement mechanic too different between both games.

I mean I don't play IA too much and someone could look deeply into those differences to explain why FFG saw the rule was needed on IA but didn't on armada.

17 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

This is why I said ongoing discussion is pointless, and the forum has gone toxic.

I did not say that. Go find the exact quote. What I said is that most of the other good players I know are in a similar boat on the ubiquity of flotillas and that the dissenting opinions I want to hear are those of good players winning major tournaments who disagree. You would be one, but you used the exact same flotilla delay tactics to win San Antonio so you can hardly claim it's not good!

What I am tired of is people who cannot consistently win or place well also acting like they know how to win and place well against the dominant strategy. That's not an ego thing, it's just that when Tom Brady and Mark Sanchez disagree on how to play QB, I'm going to go with Brady's opinion.

I am going to make good on my statement to bail out. It's been nice, guys, but this is legitimately going nowhere and I am confident the evidence will continue to mount that flotilla activation issues will dominate the meta until genuinely fixed. Enjoy.

Not to bother you. I just want to squeeze myself to achieve that and help the community:

- what you would define as a major tournaments?

- what exactly I should not to do in order to keep my fleet out of what you consider the same delay tactic? Are 2 BCC flotillas there?

25 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

edit: To mandalorian - what would you do if their fleet has no center, as I previously described? By turn three I have six ships, all of which are outside of long range of each other. Where is my center? Or are you just shoving your pickle into empty space?

I'm sure the pickle would be able to reach at least half of them throughout the match... I'm often killing two flotillas by turn two, so I guess wait and see what's still alive turn three?

Alternativley I could nuke relay with an alpha strike and laugh while those flotillas are now contributing absolutely nothing to the rest of your fleet

3 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

- what exactly I should not to do in order to keep my fleet out of what you consider the same delay tactic? Are 2 BCC flotillas there?

I can't speak for him directly - but as best as I can interpret, the problem appears to be "Flotillas" in general. Any flotillas. (Judging by the 1 or more comment earlier)

30 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

Go find the exact quote.

Quote

One, to the git gud crowd: talk to me when you learn how to play. If Q or Jon R want to talk **** to me? Fine. But if you are not a world champion, quite bluntly, you are at best in the tier of many of the other good players on these forums (several of whom are chiming in on this thread) and you should not be talking down to them. An amusing trend is that often the people saying those lack creativity or don't know how to play in these threads are, in fact, garbage players compared to the people they are lecturing. JJ, Q, Indierockclimber, etc. are a lot more likely to be right than you are.

33 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

I want to hear are those of good players winning major tournaments who disagree

It's fine n dandy that you want an exclusive pro-group of players you want to discuss Armada with. Just chill the **** out when us non-pro players have a different opinion than you. Not everyone has the funds or time to go to every tournament ever, so just because we can't go to a tournament does not mean we are garbage players.

I just don't get why we all can't get along and accept people clearly have differing opinions that are not going to change no matter how much we discuss this topic.

15 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

One, to the git gud crowd: talk to me when you learn how to play. If Q or Jon R want to talk **** to me? Fine. But if you are not a world champion, quite bluntly, you are at best in the tier of many of the other good players on these forums (several of whom are chiming in on this thread) and you should not be talking down to them. An amusing trend is that often the people saying those lack creativity or don't know how to play in these threads are, in fact, garbage players compared to the people they are lecturing. JJ, Q, Indierockclimber, etc. are a lot more likely to be right than you are.

The context of that quote is PRETTY important tbh. He was responding specifically to Gink's attempted shutdown of the conversation by implying people in the thread didn't have the creativity or skill necessary to deal with flotillas. This just a page after Ard tried to shutdown the conversation by implying everyone in the thread was being gullible to rumors in spite of literally everyone in the thread offering some level of skepticism to it's truth-value. Rein's response was stronger than I might have worded it myself, but a much needed reminder to the white knight crowd that those of us actually taking up issue with the game are actually skilled players, not just people who played a game and came up with something to whine about.

I think everyone's said what they have to say at this point, but it won't surprise me that new people other than Rein, Cal, myself, WWPDSteven, etc., keep bringing this topic up, because it's a valid concern to have about Armada, whether or not you agree with it.

6 minutes ago, WuFame said:

because it's a valid concern to have about Armada, whether or not you agree with it.

Okay. The problem I have is thusly so:

Constructively, what can we do about it?

I mean, I've been given feedback through the official channels I can for a while.

I'm even applying as a Playtester.

But I don't think there's anything that can be done, other than "Wait and See."

So, personally, I'm at a bit of a loss to where to go - and that's why the discussion can be vitriolic - its divisive with no answer, and people don't like to be told to wait, or that their opinion doesn't matter... Even if it is the regrettable truth.

8 minutes ago, WuFame said:

The context of that quote is PRETTY important tbh. He was responding specifically to Gink's attempted shutdown of the conversation by implying people in the thread didn't have the creativity or skill necessary to deal with flotillas.

To put it in context. Its Reinholt listing a group of players I have played and beaten whilst heavily suggesting I am an incompetent player because I am not a US citizen.

Thats the context. Its even worse.

@Caldias whilst we are dragging stuff back up, I would like take the opportunity to apologise for the rant at you the other day. That was unfair. Sorry.

To clarify before I get jumped and nope out on this thread myself:

It's totally fine you guys disagree. I think Ard's been the most articulate about his side's position, that being, he understands that we're complaining specifically about what flotillas have done to the activation game, and that he just simply disagrees that it's bad for the game, and even agrees the opposite direction (correct me if I'm misrepresenting your position, Ard). That's a perfectly valid counter-opinion to have and I have no problem with that. At a fundamental level, if you're happy with the way the game is, there's nothing I can say to change that, and I don't even want to change that. That's awesome.

But what you guys have seen in the last 3-4 weeks is an outcry of skilled and dedicated players who are offering up an equally valid opinion on what they feel is killing this game. You guys can't say anything to inject fun into this for us. The list building is stale in our opinions. It's not fun anymore, and while you may think "Good, gtfo, can I have your stuff?", when pillars of the community like Caldias and WWPDSteven start walking away, it's not because because they weren't creative enough.

Tear me to shreds.

Hey Ginkapo, no worries. I definitely didn't take it personally, and understand your feelings stem from a place of a love for the game. My feelings do to, we just are at an odds of opinion, which is why I've stayed out of it after saying my piece. It is all in FFG's hands now, anyway. Your enthusiasm is usually a good thing for the forums, and I've heard you are really helpful in teaching people Vassal, so I knew the Gink that was upset wasn't the Gink most here know and love. We all get upset, I have, too.

5 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Constructively, what can we do about it?

That's a valid question. Nothing, I think, is the answer. When someone is venting a concern, they aren't always looking for absolute answers, but maybe just a discussion to figure out if their concern is valid. At some points in this 1-2 month discussion, that's been found, at other points it hasn't been.

I get for the people representing the status quo that it's super annoying to come to the forum and see the same whine OVER AND OVER again. I agree. But much like science, I firmly believe if Cal, myself, Steve, Rein, church, and everybody else that has offered a counter opinion on this matter, if we all walked away and never came back or mentioned another word on the subject, you would still hear these concerns.

Because there's validity in them. The truth always resurfaces.

1 minute ago, WuFame said:

Tear me to shreds.

You know, if I were to break things down as simple as possible (for myself)... I think I get to this:

"This is stupid."
"Okay. But what can we do about it?"
"I don't know, but its stupid and I'm not having fun, and its poorly designed."
"Okay. I'm having fun though."
"That's awesome for you, but I'm still not."
"I'm sorry to hear that... But since we've also established that there's nothing we can do about it, can I go on having my fun in peace?"

...

Maybe that's why I'm accused of being anti-discussion.

I actually am.

Would be totally different if I felt I could do something about it. I wish I could take some of the listed players and give them a direct line to designers, and get some direct feedback through beyond what I've already done...

But instead, we'll have to sit and wait.

And hope we don't kill each other in the meantime.

11 minutes ago, WuFame said:

The context of that quote is PRETTY important tbh. He was responding specifically to Gink's attempted shutdown of the conversation by implying people in the thread didn't have the creativity or skill necessary to deal with flotillas. This just a page after Ard tried to shutdown the conversation by implying everyone in the thread was being gullible to rumors in spite of literally everyone in the thread offering some level of skepticism to it's truth-value. Rein's response was stronger than I might have worded it myself, but a much needed reminder to the white knight crowd that those of us actually taking up issue with the game are actually skilled players, not just people who played a game and came up with something to whine about.

I think everyone's said what they have to say at this point, but it won't surprise me that new people other than Rein, Cal, myself, WWPDSteven, etc., keep bringing this topic up, because it's a valid concern to have about Armada, whether or not you agree with it.

Right, but if the insult had been directed at Gink specially, it wouldn't have been that big of an issue (sorry Gink). But when ANYONE says:

"One, to the git gud crowd: talk to me when you learn how to play"

"if you are not a world champion you are at best in the tier of many of the other good players on these forums and you should not be talking down to them"

"An amusing trend is that often the people saying those lack creativity or don't know how to play in these threads are, in fact, garbage players compared to the people they are lecturing. JJ, Q, Indierockclimber, etc. are a lot more likely to be right than you are."

It's extremely condescending regardless of the context.

Basically I have 0 input in Reinholt's eyes because I literally did not have the money to go to Maryland. I didn't have the time or money to go to Worlds. I didn't have the time to go to Stele. I had a conflict of interest to go to Worlds in May. I was in college through wave 2 so I didn't get a ton of experience to play.

This type of negativity and shutting people down because they don't have trophies really pisses me off. And I'm not the only one who can't make it to tournaments. There is a whole slew of people who can't.

Of all the people on the forums, I have yet to see more than a handful of people say "Don't talk to me unless you're pro." which is exactly how this comes off as.

I'm going to chime in with WuFame here. The amount of really mean "git gud" sentiment I got from the armada white knights when we were talking about squadrons was also pretty frothy. I can't remember exactly what the context was, but I believe that the quote in question form reinholt was actually not as bad as it is out-of-context. I do very much remember some people being extremely condescending about other people's play skills that they had never met.

I absolutely disagree with the OP/flotillas matter (I think they're mostly a little too ubiquitous but not nearly as big of a problem as squadrons), but I will agree that this is the issue, for a lot of us: list building is not fun anymore. And screaming at us that EVERYTHING IS FINE, is really not helpful.

In terms of constructive power, this is what I do and what I want to achieve: That the community as a whole recognizes that there are power disparities that are not good for the game, and discuss them and bring them to the attention of the game maker, who seems willing to address issues. If the game maker is unable to rebalance the game, then we as players can also discuss wide-ranging unofficial rules to fix an issue. That or make strategy articles to help specifically counter these problem spots of the game. This forum decided to vote to NOT WRITE STRATEGY POSTS. You all decided it wasn't worth your time.

3 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

And hope we don't kill each other in the meantime.

The information vacuum is driving people crazy...

All I can think of is...

@Undeadguy I think Rein is specifically speaking about talking down to him as a method of discussion. You're fine to talk to him on equal terms, but the get-gud crowd doesn't have the skill or authority to assume the concerns of equally skilled players are due to their uncreative and unskilled natures. Rein's a friend, so I'm obviously interpreting his words through that bias, but there you have it.

In short, we're largely skilled equals here, maybe let's treat each other that way.