4 minutes ago, Sybreed said:Hmmm... come on Dras, we both know this isn't the norm. I'm talking the usual 400 points lists. Like I said, I haven't seen these, but lists consisting of Yavaris, PH, 3 flotillas with Rieekan and squadrons... ugh... kill me plz.
Look at what I said.
6x Lists that met your Critera. At 400, and at 500... That is the Norm.
But still **** epic. Because its up to you to make it the norm, and make it Epic still.
18 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:Steve, I believe we played your Blockade Run at the tournament in Mountain View last month. I'm sure you can imagine that when my ISD shoots at GR75s it also does damage. I'm very aware that big ships hurt small ships. That's why we take big ships.
My question is, why aren't my or even most other smaller combat ships able to reliably harm flotillas? A fast powerful warship gets torn apart even as it speeds across the table, but the moment a GR75 or Gozanti gets shot at we're left begging for accuracy results.
Steve, apply the same logic to the rest of your fleet that isn't the Liberty. The rest of your fleet can't reliably damage GR75s, because it's largely rolling small numbers of red dice at range. Which means no reliable accuracies. Which means that only your liberty can consistently threaten flotillas.
How is it that in a fleet with at least three dedicated combat ships only one can actually hurt unarmed flotillas? Doesn't that strike you as odd?
LOL...I wish you wouldn't use THAT game as a example. It was the first time I had run a list like that, and it was also the last day! 
In a following game, an ISD2 whiffed on Bright Hope in two straight rounds from blue range, so ANYTHING can happen when you play a game where dice are involved.
My point is, whatever your fleet makeup is, if it is going to be a flotilla hunter, then equip the ship with the upgrades it needs to get the job done. In your example, I outfitted my Liberty to do the job. I suppose I could have put Intel officers on my 3 x TRC90's to burn the scatter away and then kill it. I am currently running a Liberty, Admo, TRC90, and 2 x GR75. I could have put H9 on Admo to be the flotilla hunter, but I wanted a bigger threat from long range and decided to use the Liberty instead. Since it also has Gunnery Teams, I also get to shoot at other things from my front arc as well. Admo falls short in that category.
I will also repeat...if you want to kill a flotilla as the Empire, use Screed/Raider 1/sensor teams/APT. It works every time with a CF command!!!
14 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:Lol. Welcome to the 134 mass squadron mass flotilla age.
Trash your medium ships and large ships.
Squadron complaining thread is over THERE....
29 minutes ago, geek19 said:Squadron complaining thread is over THERE....
Squadron complaining thread is every thread.
50 minutes ago, Sybreed said:Hmmm... come on Dras, we both know this isn't the norm. I'm talking the usual 400 points lists. Like I said, I haven't seen these, but lists consisting of Yavaris, PH, 3 flotillas with Rieekan and squadrons... ugh... kill me plz.
Yeah, how dare people use squadrons in a way you haven't seen and never fire Yavaris's guns or the Phoenix Home's guns either! That's not a thing they do!
Nothing's stopping you from running Demo towards them and then running away later. Demo doesn't NEED to jump turn 2 and then explode, there.
so scatter is broken on flotillas (I agree) so make a house rule and replace it with a brace. 
and post and apply the rule when "you" run a tournament Maybe FFG will see the will of the most players.
but gripping here will change nothing.
On an extremely serious note, I was extremely considering using rambo90s to destroy flotillas because many times its easier for you to deal direct 3 hull damage than try and blow them up the normal way.
15 minutes ago, ouzel said:so scatter is broken on flotillas (I agree) so make a house rule and replace it with a brace.
but gripping here will change nothing.
I was thinking of something like:
Scatter at long range: Works like it does now
Scatter at medium range: halves the damage, rounded down
Scatter at close range: reduce damage by one.
37 minutes ago, Sybreed said:I was thinking of something like:
Scatter at long range: Works like it does now
Scatter at medium range: halves the damage, rounded down
Scatter at close range: reduce damage by one.
Except that everyone is crying about how hard it is to kill them at long range (I'm not), so your proposal does little to placate them lol
14 hours ago, CaribbeanNinja said:I definitely see both sides of this argument. I think @thecactusman17's thread just continued the argument against and for the current use of flotillas in the meta.
I'm still troubled by voices ( @Reinholt@Caldias @WuFame @WWPDSteven, etc) that are really feeling a sort of fizzling or burn out with the way the game is going. I also understand the other side, @Ardaedheland @Ginkapo @shmitty that don't see eye to eye on this. (I'm on this side, but I'd argue that it is not a creativity problem at all, that it is just whether or not you're okay with what's going on in the game right now. )
I hope that those voices having issues with the game state stick with it. They would be missed (if they got stuck in Carbonite.) However, that would totally be the healthy thing to do at this point, if the game just isn't working for you.
On a funny related note, I've recently introduced the game to my son, who absolutely has hated Flotillas from the start. It is easy to see both sides of the story when your spawn is on the other side...
I don't plan on going anywhere, just definitely have some of my enthusiasm sapped, which is okay! And if other people love it, I'm not one to try and say my opinion has more value, just that the meta seems stale to me, due to activation thirst.
I started to reiterate old points, but I doubt anyone needs to hear it again. I've definitely posted enough about it. Whether or not I get the fire back about competitive play, I will always have my Armada, if for no other reason than to show my nephew in seven years or so, and it looks more and more likely I'll have custody over him, soon, so we'll have plenty of time to play.
I've played Armada more than any other miniature game I've played, probably combined. Amazing game, and I look forward to still seeing all you jabronis at Worlds.
14 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:You've already all pointed out that it takes immense firepower to kill a flotilla, far in excess of the value of that ship.
*Sigh*
It doesn't require "immense firepower" but if you're already bringing it why wouldn't you kill flots with it... You know an akbar CR90 with H9s is only like 52 points, can be used to attack standard ships, but can polish off a flot with relative ease...
How is any of this news?
Flotillas are honestly not that hard to kill...
anyways...this...again...
There's such a HUGE level of variance in every match to say they "blew 151 points to hunt down 18 points" is just plain silly.... they brought a 151 point war machine that just so happens to destroy floats well too
| Church: | So it is a sword. It just happens to function like a key in very specific situations. |
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Or it's a key all the time, and when you stick it in people, it unlocks their death. |
5 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:
It doesn't require "immense firepower" but if you're already bringing it why wouldn't you kill flots with it... You know an akbar CR90 with H9s is only like 52 points, can be used to attack standard ships, but can polish off a flot with relative ease...
How is that? An Ackbar CR90 will fire out the side to use Ackbar and throw 3 red dice at long range. Odds are you get two dice with some kind of hit facing and one blank. So you flip one to an accuracy, the other one is evaded, and.... ??? Even if you get 2 hit / 2 hit / some kind of hit/crit, your ideal roll, you flip one to an accuracy, the other gets evaded, and you do 2 damage, which is not enough to kill the flotilla. It is, in fact, literally impossible to one-shot a flotilla with this setup, and on the back board edge, you cannot even shoot them until turn 3. Thus, if things are perfect for you, you killed one on turn 4. Probably turn 5 or 6, however.
This is what @pt106 was referring to earlier. It's surprisingly hard to kill flotillas at long range without a LOT of dice. Not 3. You need 6ish with a reroll, and hopefully H-9s.
Edited by Reinholt4 minutes ago, Reinholt said:How is that? An Ackbar CR90 will fire out the side to use Ackbar and throw 3 red dice at long range.
4 with confire. (what else would you use?) I made the roll 10 times on my dice app, 3 of which scored above 5 damage with an accuracy the rest averaged at 4 damage. add in the ability to ram... a CR90 can do the job just fine. If you don't like that idea take the 39 point CR90 sw-7s engine techs and blast doors and just ram the poor bastards to death... only 57 points... seriously... I don't get why this is difficult?
Edited by Darth SanguisAlright.
What CAN you kill at long range?
Nothing.
The scatter isnt the issue. Its the lack of guns and reason to bring near the fight. So the solution is to be efficient at killing relay units.
1 minute ago, Darth Sanguis said:3 of which scored above 5 damage with an accuracy the rest averaged at 4 damage.
Did you remove any double hit that would be cancelled by evade before summarizing damage?
2 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:So the solution is to be efficient at killing relay units.
Sadly it is not. Show me how you'll be efficient in killing Jendon relay protected by 3 Tie/Adv? Then add another Lambda to the mix.
Edited by pt106Just now, pt106 said:Did you remove any double hit that would be cancelled by evade before summarizing damage?
Nope, so subtract 2 from both you're still averaging 2-3 damage plus what you can get with a ram per activation.... they only have 3 hull and a single point of shield.... Even if it was both bright hop and had derlin, it would not take that long....
Just now, Darth Sanguis said:Nope, so subtract 2 from both you're still averaging 2-3 damage plus what you can get with a ram per activation.... they only have 3 hull and a single point of shield.... Even if it was both bright hop and had derlin, it would not take that long....
You'll hurt them but you won't kill them outright and that was the point. 2-3 damage won't cut it.
2 minutes ago, pt106 said:Sadly it is not. Show me how you'll be efficient in killing Jendon relay protected by 3 Tie/Adv? Then add another Lambda to the mix.
If the other guy is willing to invest 56 points into having a Relay+Jendon safely, I don't really see the problem there.
1 minute ago, pt106 said:Sadly it is not. Show me how you'll be efficient in killing Jendon relay protected by 3 Tie/Adv? Then add another Lambda to the mix.
Saber Mauler Jendon.... you already have seen that.
On the rebel side I am finding that z95s with big brother protection and flight controllers are highly effective at blasting through.
Its not cheap,
Z95 x2, Ewing x2, Xwing or YT1300 x2 plus Ten Numb Toryn and flight controllers.
Obscene. Its astounding what you can achieve if you ditch the vcx's and bring the space turd.
Just now, pt106 said:You'll hurt them but you won't kill them outright and that was the point. 2-3 damage won't cut it.
Except for all the times that it does...
you know people use these ships right...
and actually play with them...
If you want something with more power, an instikill then you bring something more costly, but I can tell you from experience, a CR90 with akbar and H-9s will go a long way at speed 4 to hunting down and popping GRs and Gozantis...
I'll leave it at that...
I can't argue that I've made it work like this and be told it doesn't work...
1 minute ago, Ginkapo said:Saber Mauler Jendon.... you already have seen that.
On the rebel side I am finding that z95s with big brother protection and flight controllers are highly effective at blasting through.
Its not cheap,
Z95 x2, Ewing x2, Xwing or YT1300 x2 plus Ten Numb Toryn and flight controllers.
Obscene. Its astounding what you can achieve if you ditch the vcx's and bring the space turd.
Saber Mauler Jendon won't get Jendon as he's 6 hits with a double brace, so Saber two attacks can produce only 4 hits tops (Same situation with 2 EWings). Teen Numb is nice but slow and still will only add a hit at a time.
19 minutes ago, Reinholt said:
How is that? An Ackbar CR90 will fire out the side to use Ackbar and throw 3 red dice at long range. Odds are you get two dice with some kind of hit facing and one blank. So you flip one to an accuracy, the other one is evaded, and.... ??? Even if you get 2 hit / 2 hit / some kind of hit/crit, your ideal roll, you flip one to an accuracy, the other gets evaded, and you do 2 damage, which is not enough to kill the flotilla. It is, in fact, literally impossible to one-shot a flotilla with this setup, and on the back board edge, you cannot even shoot them until turn 3. Thus, if things are perfect for you, you killed one on turn 4. Probably turn 5 or 6, however.
This is what @pt106 was referring to earlier. It's surprisingly hard to kill flotillas at long range without a LOT of dice. Not 3. You need 6ish with a reroll, and hopefully H-9s.
Put Intel officer on a TRC90 and burn the scatter away. It will then melt like butter...I love butter on popcorn popping flotillas!
3 minutes ago, pt106 said:Saber Mauler Jendon won't get Jendon as he's 6 hits with a double brace, so Saber two attacks can produce only 4 hits tops (Same situation with 2 EWings). Teen Numb is nice but slow and still will only add a hit at a time.
I realize it's a typo, but I love the idea of Teen Numb.
"Whatever Dad!" Kills 4 TIE fighter a. "You don't know what it's like to be in love!" Shoots Howlrunner.
2 minutes ago, itzSteve said:Put Intel officer on a TRC90 and burn the scatter away. It will then melt like butter...I love butter on popcorn popping flotillas!
Smart people won't scatter but will evade a double and take the rest. Again, i'll reiterate, the discussion is not about killing flotillas (that's easy). Its about killing fleeing flotillas fast and without utilizing significant resources that would be end up being unavailable for the rest of the battle.