Folks familiar with older wargames may be familiar with the concept of 'impulses', already, but for those not - it's pretty easily explained. It is an alternative to IGO-UGO mechanics, where units could cross an enormous area of the table with no option for enemy response. (Which is, basically, completely unrealistic - if you see a ship coming at you, and it is in your fire arc, you are not going to wait for it to cross all the way to its optimum range before reacting to it)

Instead, what this mechanic does is break up the movement of ships into 'phases', and effectively has ships move at their speeds proportionally to each other.

Amusingly, this game makes that VERY easy to implement as a result of the maneuver chart - everything is already broken up into easy segments of 1, 2, 3, or 4, and whether a ship can yaw at any given step is clearly indicated in that chart. All that is needed is a second chart indicating when the ship WOULD move, proportionally to other ships, like this:

What happens, now, is that each turn is broken into 4 'pulses', where each ship may make one step movement on its maneuver tool. WITHIN each 'pulse', activations happen as normal - one ship at a time, back and forth. (Theoretically this would also open the possibility of 'simultaneous fire' and 'simultaneous movement' - but, at that point, we are looking at just incremental improvements for considerable increases in time. A 4-pulse system, using the existing activation process, runs about as quick as the game normally does.)

This solves the biggest problem of MSU vs smaller-ship-lists, in that there are nearly no means to react to where the latter half of the enemy formation is ending up, after your own activations, as they have a very large set of possible maneuver end-points. With an impulse system, they still retain a portion of this significant advantage - yet, they will have already spent 3/4 of their possible movement variations in getting to their current position, which blunts a large portion of the advantage they have.

This also continues interacting with the existing rules without issue (Demolisher works the same as usual - it gets its first attack when everyone else does, and its second attack after some maneuver it performs; engine techs allow an extra speed-1 maneuver after any maneuver the ship performs; etc). The maneuver chart on each ship's card makes the overall implementation - knowing when you can or can't yaw - trivial. It really does feel like the game was almost made with this in mind, just...it wasn't finished.

(Bonus #1: No longer need to try to snake that overly-long maneuver tool around the table, knocking things over. Every single maneuver is just using the first two notches.)

(Bonus #2: Hey, terrain matters, now! Since you don't instantly teleport from your starting point to your ending point, flying TOWARDS asteroids...kinda bad idea, all of a sudden)

(Bonus #3: this also solves the ridiculous realism-shatterer of MSU lists weaving through each other's formations where the ship could not possibly fit, and ending up somewhere it could never have safely traveled to, simply as a result of 'teleporting' across the maneuver tool)

But this makes ramming like a constant thing or for movements to be super predictable. There is some interesting ideas but it sort of locks ship movements making it even more age of sail like.

13 minutes ago, Grujav said:

But this makes ramming like a constant thing or for movements to be super predictable. There is some interesting ideas but it sort of locks ship movements making it even more age of sail like.

It only impacts ramming that would be otherwise avoided by ships 'jumping over each other'. Which was a pretty ridiculous way to avoid ramming - the better way to not ram an enemy ship is to not steer directly into them .

And as to 'locking a ship into a path'...I'm not sure I see that. Sure, it means that a CR90 can't spontaneously decide that it wants to be halfway across the map from where it was otherwise heading...but that also seems like a win for realism, to me. Ships can still make hard turns (max out their yaw values), as their last maneuver, that are the extreme opposite direction of where they'd otherwise been navigating the entire turn...but, yeah, it means you are only effectively one-maneuver-length on either side of a spot. (Unless you bring engine techs for that bonus maneuver)

Give it a try - the difference is more subtle than you'd think, and in some ways speeds up play (as it reduces the number of maneuver decisions you need to make at any point - rather than trying to fiddle with the entire length of the maneuver tool every time you move, your decision is simply...straight...or one or two clicks either side. And that's it.)

(EDIT: that said, I'd certainly change the ramming rules, anyway. As seen in the movies and TV shows, ramming in this setting is both less desirable a tactic, and more catastrophic, than currently in the game. Maybe something like... 'When two ships collide with each other, each takes damage equal to the command rating of the other ship minus 1, minimum of 0'. Don't even need a special rule for flotillas, any more...)

This seems way too complicated, I like Armada how it is. As for MSU style, just wit until 4 hammerheads with Akbar and external racks becomes a thing. At least they'll be shooting, not ramming.

Seems you want a completely new game.

But really, you are just giving Demo to every ship, and speed 4 gets the best of it. So Admo gets it's ability, attacks, moves 3 notches, and attacks again out of the other side arc?

GT has a massive boost now. Attack, scoot, attack again from the main arc.

You would have to completely rewrite all the maneuver charts for ships if I understand your intent with only needing 2 notches for each movement. Instead of having speed 4, you are breaking into 2 speed 2 moves.

What's to stop me from setting all my ships to speed 1, pick 3 defensive objectives like Station Assault, CO, and Sensor Net+Strategic and force my opponent to COME AT ME at a higher speed so they move into my arcs before all my ships go?

I honestly don't know what you are trying to accomplish and I've read this 3 times now. Is this more of a speed based activation rule? So the faster you are the sooner you activate? Like pilot skill in X-Wing? Or do you choose to activate a ship and break up it's activation into several parts? This is way more complicated than it needs to be.

3 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Seems you want a completely new game.

But really, you are just giving Demo to every ship, and speed 4 gets the best of it. So Admo gets it's ability, attacks, moves 3 notches, and attacks again out of the other side arc?

GT has a massive boost now. Attack, scoot, attack again from the main arc.

You would have to completely rewrite all the maneuver charts for ships if I understand your intent with only needing 2 notches for each movement. Instead of having speed 4, you are breaking into 2 speed 2 moves.

What's to stop me from setting all my ships to speed 1, pick 3 defensive objectives like Station Assault, CO, and Sensor Net+Strategic and force my opponent to COME AT ME at a higher speed so they move into my arcs before all my ships go?

I honestly don't know what you are trying to accomplish and I've read this 3 times now. Is this more of a speed based activation rule? So the faster you are the sooner you activate? Like pilot skill in X-Wing? Or do you choose to activate a ship and break up it's activation into several parts? This is way more complicated than it needs to be.

Ok it's not just me that was finding this complicated, good.

1 hour ago, xanderf said:

It only impacts ramming that would be otherwise avoided by ships 'jumping over each other'. Which was a pretty ridiculous way to avoid ramming - the better way to not ram an enemy ship is to not steer directly into them .

And as to 'locking a ship into a path'...I'm not sure I see that. Sure, it means that a CR90 can't spontaneously decide that it wants to be halfway across the map from where it was otherwise heading...but that also seems like a win for realism, to me. Ships can still make hard turns (max out their yaw values), as their last maneuver, that are the extreme opposite direction of where they'd otherwise been navigating the entire turn...but, yeah, it means you are only effectively one-maneuver-length on either side of a spot. (Unless you bring engine techs for that bonus maneuver)

Give it a try - the difference is more subtle than you'd think, and in some ways speeds up play (as it reduces the number of maneuver decisions you need to make at any point - rather than trying to fiddle with the entire length of the maneuver tool every time you move, your decision is simply...straight...or one or two clicks either side. And that's it.)

(EDIT: that said, I'd certainly change the ramming rules, anyway. As seen in the movies and TV shows, ramming in this setting is both less desirable a tactic, and more catastrophic, than currently in the game. Maybe something like... 'When two ships collide with each other, each takes damage equal to the command rating of the other ship minus 1, minimum of 0'. Don't even need a special rule for flotillas, any more...)

The reason ships weren't ramming each other is because space isn't a 3D plane. Also, and I know this might shock you, but there are several ships that *cannot escape a ram situation on their own.* God help you if your VSD, MC80, Interdictor or Pelta has the misfortune of getting too close facing towards a medium or large base ship especially without a navigation command. A well-placed flotilla? Hope you didn't need to move out of anyone's way or go anywhere, because you're done until it moves. If it moves.

Better way I think is this: simult movement, and each ship moves one speed-step until everyone has finished their move. Then everyone fires at the same time. Tadaaaaa. =D

Only issue is how overlaps works. But that can be worked out later.

Its great.

27 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Seems you want a completely new game.

Obviously not - as mentioned, this is basically already present, without any changes.

Quote

But really, you are just giving Demo to every ship, and speed 4 gets the best of it. So Admo gets it's ability, attacks, moves 3 notches, and attacks again out of the other side arc?

Not sure that I see Demo being somewhat reduced in impact as a problem, but, sure, let's adjust the chart so that doesn't happen.

Quote

You would have to completely rewrite all the maneuver charts for ships if I understand your intent with only needing 2 notches for each movement. Instead of having speed 4, you are breaking into 2 speed 2 moves.

I...don't even get where you are coming from on this. You just use the two charts together, with no changes.

You have an MC30 at speed 3. It's impulse 1. Do you turn or go straight? Neither - speed 3 does not move on impulse 1.

Same MC30, speed 3, impulse 2. Do you turn or go straight? You maneuver on this impulse, yes, but as you can see on your speed chart, you are not turning on your first maneuver. So you go straight.

Same MC30, speed 3, impulse 3. Do you turn or go straight? You maneuver on this impulse, yes, and your speed chart does show you can turn (one click) on this movement - so you can do either.

etc.

Quote

What's to stop me from setting all my ships to speed 1, pick 3 defensive objectives like Station Assault, CO, and Sensor Net+Strategic and force my opponent to COME AT ME at a higher speed so they move into my arcs before all my ships go?

Other than the fact that, at speed 1, the enemy can easily outmaneuver you by flying to your flanks - just as they can, now? Only, of course, you can now at least see that happening and have some possibility of reacting to it.

The idea is fine on the face of it, I guess. It just requires so many rules changes and rebalances that it almost might as well be a new game.

All I'll say is that there's a reason Starfleet Battles and Federation Commander don't have a wildly popular following among casual wargamers like most of us.

Just now, Ardaedhel said:

The idea is fine on the face of it, I guess. It just requires so many rules changes and rebalances that it almost might as well be a new game.

I'd be quite interested in discussing any areas where you see a rules change required, or rebalancing.

It really is a very subtle change - instead of doing all your movement at once, everyone does it over a series of 'pulses', just moving one length each time on the maneuver tool.

It has a lot of impact, sure, but in relation to existing capabilities and rules. It doesn't "break" any of them, or change them. It simply speeds things up a bit, while reducing some of the more "game-y" aspects of Armada...

1 minute ago, Norsehound said:

All I'll say is that there's a reason Starfleet Battles and Federation Commander don't have a wildly popular following among casual wargamers like most of us.

Yes, well, SFB took it to an extreme.

A game with 32 impulses , with each impulse having to go through...

• Move ships
• Move seeking weapons
• Resolve seeking weapons
• Launch seeking weapons
• Fire direct-fire weapons
• Resolve direct-fire weapons
• End of impulse procedures

...that was never going to catch on. (And, yes, for SFB vets - that's obviously the demo/cadet game sequence. I know full well the 'complete' sequence is 4 pages long per impulse)

On the other hand - a game with 4 impulses, with each impulse being:

• Once a turn, activate + attack
• Every time, move one length

I dunno, that seems pretty easy.

9 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Yes, well, SFB took it to an extreme.

A game with 32 impulses , with each impulse having to go through...

• Move ships
• Move seeking weapons
• Resolve seeking weapons
• Launch seeking weapons
• Fire direct-fire weapons
• Resolve direct-fire weapons
• End of impulse procedures

...that was never going to catch on. (And, yes, for SFB vets - that's obviously the demo/cadet game sequence. I know full well the 'complete' sequence is 4 pages long per impulse)

On the other hand - a game with 4 impulses, with each impulse being:

• Once a turn, activate + attack
• Every time, move one length

I dunno, that seems pretty easy.

OK, Xanderf, I have to say that between reading your chart and seeing you explicitly state the turn sequence, I STILL have no idea what you're suggesting here. This whole thing seems very complicated and that's coming from a guy who had huge sections of the turn sequence in Warhammer 40k memorized for several years.

I think you're suggesting that all ships activate by doing a portion of their movement then attacking, then doing it again and again and again until everything has gone. And that's just the one round.

Sunday, I played my first All Out Offensive, with around a dozen activations per side before hyperspace reinforcements began to arrive. Many of these activations were just flotillas moving 2-3 move spaces and doing nothing else, especially after squadrons started disappearing in large numbers.

Starting with Rogue One, we played through THE ENTIRE ORIGINAL TRILOGY AND HALF OF PHANTOM MENACE before the game ended. We were not slow players. A large portion of that game, in fairness, was spent grinding through squadrons. We started at noon and didn't put dice down until the end of round 7 at 10:30pm.

In your game, 3 ships going at speed 3 accounts for 9 discreet mini-activations on their own. that could be three MC30s, or 3 Star Destroyers, or 3 flotillas. Demolisher could have a will-he-won't-he 4th activation that may or may not ever materialize.

Keep that in mind. The current game is based on "only" the number of total ship activations on the board. Multiply that by the cumulative speed of every ship on the board. Per round.

I don't have 5 hours for a "quick" game of Armada.

2 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

I think you're suggesting that all ships activate by doing a portion of their movement then attacking, then doing it again and again and again until everything has gone. And that's just the one round.

Eh, no. As the chart shows - it's one activation and one attack per turn, same as usual. Look at where the 'A' values are.

The only thing really changing is when that first one happens (to a small extent) and that movement is broken up into phases, rather than all-at-once.

Quote

I don't have 5 hours for a "quick" game of Armada.

Then you'll be happy to know this works out to be quicker than the standard Armada games! No more attacks than usual in a turn, no more activations. Only difference is that, instead of endless fiddling with the full length of the maneuver tool, you only use the first segment+pivot of it at any point. And when ships GET that single activation ends up spread out over the course of the turn a bit more...

Just now, xanderf said:

Eh, no. As the chart shows - it's one activation and one attack per turn, same as usual. Look at where the 'A' values are.

The only thing really changing is when that first one happens (to a small extent) and that movement is broken up into phases, rather than all-at-once.

Then you'll be happy to know this works out to be quicker than the standard Armada games! No more attacks than usual in a turn, no more activations. Only difference is that, instead of endless fiddling with the full length of the maneuver tool, you only use the first segment+pivot of it at any point. And when ships GET that single activation ends up spread out over the course of the turn a bit more...

Then I'm sorry, but you need to explain what your system is because that chart makes absolutely no sense. It literally tells me nothing about the turn order or how it's determined. Your explanation of the system leads to only one conclusion, which is what i posted about previously, because you specifically say that you everyone individually does small parts of their movement independently of their speed stat.

8 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

Then I'm sorry, but you need to explain what your system is because that chart makes absolutely no sense. It literally tells me nothing about the turn order or how it's determined. Your explanation of the system leads to only one conclusion, which is what i posted about previously, because you specifically say that you everyone individually does small parts of their movement independently of their speed stat.

I'm baffled at where the confusion is.

The turn works the same as usual - there are no changes in turn order, just pacing it out.

A turn starts, everyone does their planning, and once finished you go into the impulse routine.

You just go through four impulses, one after the other. Impulse 1 - who activates or moves? (If the speed has an 'A' for the impulse 1 row, it does its usual activate+attack now. If it has an 'M', it moves. Nothing else activates or moves). Impulse 2 - who activates or moves? (If the speed has an 'A' for the impulse 2 row, it does its usual activate+attack now. If it has an 'M', it moves. Nothing else activates or moves). etc. All four impulses, just like that. Movement is only ever one step forward on the maneuver tool, with yaws as appropriate for that movement number for the ship.

As the speed is set at the beginning of the turn, each ship just proceeds down its column activating+attacking or moving one step. That's 1 activation+attack and 2 moves for a speed 2 ship. 1 activation+attack and 3 moves for a speed 3 ship. etc.

31 minutes ago, xanderf said:

I'm baffled at where the confusion is.

The turn works the same as usual - there are no changes in turn order, just pacing it out.

A turn starts, everyone does their planning, and once finished you go into the impulse routine.

You just go through four impulses, one after the other. Impulse 1 - who activates or moves? (If the speed has an 'A' for the impulse 1 row, it does its usual activate+attack now. If it has an 'M', it moves. Nothing else activates or moves). Impulse 2 - who activates or moves? (If the speed has an 'A' for the impulse 2 row, it does its usual activate+attack now. If it has an 'M', it moves. Nothing else activates or moves). etc. All four impulses, just like that. Movement is only ever one step forward on the maneuver tool, with yaws as appropriate for that movement number for the ship.

As the speed is set at the beginning of the turn, each ship just proceeds down its column activating+attacking or moving one step. That's 1 activation+attack and 2 moves for a speed 2 ship. 1 activation+attack and 3 moves for a speed 3 ship. etc.

I'm confused because you haven't explained what the heck you're talking about.

You seem to be adding some new initiative step mid-turn that you call Impulse but you haven't explained even the most basic mechanics of how it works.

What is the "Impulse" mechanic? You haven't explained it at all. I've never played Starfleet Battles or anything else like Armada, so you're going to have to explain this from he bedrock up. Stop trying to explain it from halfway through the turn and explain *what it does.*

Here is the current round order. Seriously, this is the exact current round order. Everything that you want to fix takes place within this round order even if it's a little casually explained. I want you to take this and insert the full mechanic as you'd write it if you had to present it to FFG as the solution to their problems and it was becoming the rule at World's in May - which means everyone going to Worlds needs to understand it even if they have never played it before. Even if they can't make heads or tails of the actual rules, I want you to explain how you'd do it if you had to explain it to a new player between the entrance hall and your table. With time already running.

Round order:

1. Command Step: Players set new commands for their ships.
2. Activation Step: Players alternate choosing and activating ships, starting with the first player. The players may choose any ship in their fleet to activate and then proceed through the following steps
   • Reveal Command Dial
   • Choose to use a dial or spend it for a token
   • Use any commands if they occur immediately
   • Declare and make attacks
   • Move, execute navigate commands
   • Handle any end-of activation effects
   • Alternate players choosing steps until all ships have been activated
3. Squadron Phase: Players alternate activating squadrons starting with the first player until all squadrons are activated.
4. Status Phase: Do anything that happens in the status phase here.
5. When the status phase ends, the round is over.

47 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

Even if they can't make heads or tails of the actual rules, I want you to explain how you'd do it if you had to explain it to a new player between the entrance hall and your table.

Sure, let's work with that sequence. Revisions in red.

Round order:

1. Command Step: Players set new commands for their ships.
2. Impulse Steps (repeat 4 times):
   1. Activation: Players alternate choosing and activating ships whose current speed triggers activation that impulse, starting with the first player. The players may choose any ship in their fleet to activate and then proceed through the following steps
      • Reveal Command Dial , for all ships whose speed has an 'A' on this impulse (IE, once a turn).
        • Choose to use a dial or spend it for a token
        • Use any commands if they occur immediately
      • Declare and make attacks , for all ships whose speed has an 'A' on this impulse (IE, once a turn).
   2. Movement: Move one step , execute navigate commands , for all ships whose speed has an 'M' on this impulse.
   3. Handle any end-of activation effects , for all ships whose speed had an 'A' or 'M' on this impulse.
   4. Alternate players choosing steps until all ships have been activated
3. Squadron Phase: Players alternate activating squadrons starting with the first player until all squadrons are activated.
4. Status Phase: Do anything that happens in the status phase here.
5. When the status phase ends, the round is over.

WHAT IS AN IMPULSE!? YOU HAVE YET TO EXPLAIN WHAT IT IS.

Just now, thecactusman17 said:

WHAT IS AN IMPULSE!? YOU HAVE YET TO EXPLAIN WHAT IT IS.

It's a subdivision of a turn? Like...I dunno, a year has months in it, and months have days. A game has turns in it, and turns have impulses.

OK, so HOW does an Impulse break down?

Look above: "Players alternate until all ships have gone." That's the EXISTING system. It took me 7 words to explain it so that EVERYONE who walks up to the table understands it.

What's the defining characteristic that separates this out? What is an Impulse in terms of the game?

Are we defining a new method of initiative? What defines this initiative step before anyone even picks up a model?

3 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

OK, so HOW does an Impulse break down?

Look above: "Players alternate until all ships have gone." That's the EXISTING system. It took me 7 words to explain it so that EVERYONE who walks up to the table understands it.

What's the defining characteristic that separates this out? What is an Impulse in terms of the game?

Are we defining a new method of initiative? What defines this initiative step before anyone even picks up a model?

Maybe there is a piece of information missing - just checking - you do see the chart in the first post, right? Showing how each of the speeds from 0 to 5 interact with the 4 proposed impulses? Because that basically explains the whole thing - it's SUPER critical to the discussion. Direct link, here .

Because the existing system is the same system proposed, here, with only the slightest change - "players alternate until all ships with an activity on that impulse have gone", then on to the next impulse. Once all 4 impulses are done, it's end-of-turn.

If you're seeing that, maybe you are simply over-thinking this? It's really a small change - a REALLY SUBTLE difference that makes a big difference in play, speeding things up and addressing some odd "game-isms". Everything is working basically exactly as it does - initiative works the same, yaws on certain movement counts work the same, activation and attacks work the same - it's all the same. Merely movement is spaced out , instead of 'all at once', and ships don't "activate" (reveal their dial and attack) until their first movement opportunity.

I'll bring the cr90b's with Rieekan. 4 rams per turn sounds good to me.

Edit. Make that 7 rams

Just now, xanderf said:

Maybe there is a piece of information missing - just checking - you do see the chart in the first post, right? Showing how each of the speeds from 0 to 5 interact with the 4 proposed impulses? Because that basically explains the whole thing - it's SUPER critical to the discussion. Direct link, here .

Because the existing system is the same system proposed, here, with only the slightest change - "players alternate until all ships with an activity on that impulse have gone", then on to the next impulse. Once all 4 impulses are done, it's end-of-turn.

If you're seeing that, maybe you are simply over-thinking this? It's really a small change - a REALLY SUBTLE difference that makes a big difference in play, speeding things up and addressing some odd "game-isms". Everything is working basically exactly as it does - initiative works the same, yaws on certain movement counts work the same, activation and attacks work the same - it's all the same. Merely movement is spaced out , instead of 'all at once', and ships don't "activate" (reveal their dial and attack) until their first movement opportunity.

I'm Seeing it. It says "Speed" and "Impulse" but it doesn't say why that matters. the layout shows that there's a correlation but it doesn't lay out what that correlation is. It shows letters for "Attack" and "Move" *but you haven't explained what any of it actually means.*

Here's an infographic. Tell me what it means.



You've jumped to infographics but haven't bothered to explain what they mean or even what they reference. We're talking game mechanics, and I can't even figure out how your change integrates into the turn order. I'm still trying to figure out where your infographic is even applied. Is it when you declare your movement? Does it determine turn order? Does it determine activation order? When do you determine where on the chart you are, or if you're even supposed to be on the chart?

Stop, take a moment, and state in precise detail what your graphic means. Walk me through a turn. And if you refer to that graphic one more time, you've failed. Use words. You're on a text forum so write it out for me.

Then, after you've written out your idea, feel free to reference it again.