On 13/04/2017 at 6:55 PM, Iceeagle85 said:Why would the complexety of a game have something to do with the players mindset?
As you spend more time and effort reading the rules and learning to play, so people will generally feel more that the effort of doing that should be rewarded. As such you are more likely to play to win and not want to just play.
Consider the difference between Star Fleet Battles and X-Wing or Attack Wing.
Coming from X-Wing I found the rotating initiative and variable PS (in Runewars terms: rotating first player and variable initiative) to be really cool mechanics.
1 hour ago, WWHSD said:Coming from X-Wing I found the rotating initiative and variable PS (in Runewars terms: rotating first player and variable initiative) to be really cool mechanics.
Coming from Armada more so, I wonder if this mechanic will take the sting out of having fewer units?
This isn't directly related to X-Wing, but rather another Flightpath game.
For me, this looks like an evolved and improved version of D&D Attack Wing.
The way units worked in that game was pretty weak, but the potential for ranked combat in the Flightpath system was always there.
This looks like the game that one should have been.
Coming from X-wing and Armada... all I can say is this.
I wish these were the mechanics for X-wing.
Seriously. This game is an obvious improvement on the lagging, sagging, aging, and ever unbalancing warhorse X-wing.
First off it removes the terrible, awful, hateful, spiteful, little green dice.
Secondly it completely obliterates the improperly, and utterly unbalanced, initiative system that has actually hurt X-wing since the early days.
Thirdly, Flanking actually matters!
I would die of happiness if this game model transitioned to X-wing 2.0...
I can imagine the cinematic feel of a Tie Fighter with a good defensive rating, but only 1 hull. One hit and it explodes, just like in the movies. But also like in the movies, it is not so easy to hit.
And a variety of options for maneuver that would affect how ships fly! Imagine that... I can, and it is amazing. An X-wing could set a speed 4 maneuver which is 'White' and then set its action to be a 'white' 'Angle Deflectors Forward' increasing its Defense Rating against attacks originating in it's front by 1. Tie Fighters could do a speed three 'green' maneuver which it could set it's action to be a 'green' 'Turn + Barrel Roll'
I know I've just gone off on a major tangent... but you can take this away. I really like the system. Really like it.
2 hours ago, KryatDragon said:Coming from X-wing and Armada... all I can say is this.
I wish these were the mechanics for X-wing.
Seriously. This game is an obvious improvement on the lagging, sagging, aging, and ever unbalancing warhorse X-wing.
First off it removes the terrible, awful, hateful, spiteful, little green dice.
Secondly it completely obliterates the improperly, and utterly unbalanced, initiative system that has actually hurt X-wing since the early days.
Thirdly, Flanking actually matters!
I would die of happiness if this game model transitioned to X-wing 2.0...
I can imagine the cinematic feel of a Tie Fighter with a good defensive rating, but only 1 hull. One hit and it explodes, just like in the movies. But also like in the movies, it is not so easy to hit.
And a variety of options for maneuver that would affect how ships fly! Imagine that... I can, and it is amazing. An X-wing could set a speed 4 maneuver which is 'White' and then set its action to be a 'white' 'Angle Deflectors Forward' increasing its Defense Rating against attacks originating in it's front by 1. Tie Fighters could do a speed three 'green' maneuver which it could set it's action to be a 'green' 'Turn + Barrel Roll'
I know I've just gone off on a major tangent... but you can take this away. I really like the system. Really like it.
Hmm.. I have to disagree with you on this one, at least for the most part.
Certainly its clear that Runewars has taken many lessons from both X-Wing and Armada but X-Wing was never designed to be, nor really functions as a Miniatures game. It was designed to be (and is) a quick, simple and straight forward game of ship to ship combat. Its light, fast, easy to learn, easy to teach and straight to the point and while there is plenty of depth to sink your teeth into for the more advanced player, it really isn't designed for hardcore gamers. Its really what I would call a "Light" miniatures game or perhaps even better to say "Light Table Top Game" because it really has more in common with a board game then it does with a miniatures game.
Green Dice are there to create the exact mechanic X-Wing needed, luck. Its really that simple. Its a game where you can get lucky and win, because its designed to be and while certainly their is plenty of modification and ways to work around it, roll badly in X-Wing and you can lose no matter how well you planned and vice versus, play poorly but roll well and you can get lucky and win. It might not be to your taste, but it wouldn't be the same game if it were not for this mechanic.
The initiative system is actually one of the best parts of X-Wing. It creates a dynamic to the relevance of who is in the cockpit of a fighter, giving it one of many layers of decision. I don't think its a good mechanic for the purposes of Runewars, but for X-Wing it works perfectly.
And no.. flanking, absolutely, positively should not and does not matter in a ship to ship (fighter to fighter) combat. Adding flanking would have simply added to the complexity of a simple game unnecessarily so I completely disagree, flanking should never be a part of this game.
I see where you going with the double dial and perhaps one day we will see a re-vamping of X-Wing, but adding this layer of depth would raise the complexity of the game unnecessarily. X-Wing is a simple game because its meant to be simple.
With cards like Outmaneuver, X-Wing already has a bit of flanking, so I don't think it would be too hard to implement it across the entire game.
13 hours ago, WWHSD said:Coming from X-Wing I found the rotating initiative and variable PS (in Runewars terms: rotating first player and variable initiative) to be really cool mechanics.
Yeah, the variable init is both awesome and mind****ing for xwing players. Both my opponent and i are long time xwing players, and the thought that he can activate first with a weaker attack or different action can really mess with your decision. Its not cut and dry like it is in xwing, often i'll immediately set my dials without even a second thought regardless of what just happened because i planned my moves several turns in advance...i cant do that in RWM because of the variable init messing with things. I think in the 2 games we played we had at least 8 actions get shafted by an earlier than expected charge lol
15 hours ago, BigKahuna said:Green Dice are there to create the exact mechanic X-Wing needed, luck. Its really that simple. Its a game where you can get lucky and win, because its designed to be and while certainly their is plenty of modification and ways to work around it, roll badly in X-Wing and you can lose no matter how well you planned and vice versus, play poorly but roll well and you can get lucky and win. It might not be to your taste, but it wouldn't be the same game if it were not for this mechanic.
I would agree with this wholeheartedly if you were talking about the game in the early waves, however, X-Wing has been slowly and inexorably moving towards removing this (to the games detriment IMHO). What started as a light hearted, fun game of arc dodging star fighters with lucky (and unlucky) shots has become a grim LCG where a battle is more often than not decided in list building rather than performance on the table.
QuoteThe initiative system is actually one of the best parts of X-Wing. It creates a dynamic to the relevance of who is in the cockpit of a fighter, giving it one of many layers of decision. I don't think its a good mechanic for the purposes of Runewars, but for X-Wing it works perfectly.
I assume by initiative system in X-Wing you're actually referring to Pilot Skill (PS).
If that is the case, then I'd have to beg to differ...
The fixed nature of PS in X-Wing tends to emphasise either really low PS (for blocking) or high PS (for first shot and adapting to the movements of others).
While it works great as a representation of the skill and/or "heroicness" of the pilots, it doesn't necessarily make for good gameplay.
The tactical depth provided by the Runewars system would be superb in X-wing (not to mention the responsiveness of choosing manoeuvre directions on the fly). If it existed in X-Wing it wouldn't prevent the representation of skilled/heroic pilots any more than it prevents Runewars representing mighty heroes.
4 hours ago, maxam said:I would agree with this wholeheartedly if you were talking about the game in the early waves, however, X-Wing has been slowly and inexorably moving towards removing this (to the games detriment IMHO). What started as a light hearted, fun game of arc dodging star fighters with lucky (and unlucky) shots has become a grim LCG where a battle is more often than not decided in list building rather than performance on the table.
I assume by initiative system in X-Wing you're actually referring to Pilot Skill (PS).
If that is the case, then I'd have to beg to differ...
The fixed nature of PS in X-Wing tends to emphasise either really low PS (for blocking) or high PS (for first shot and adapting to the movements of others).
While it works great as a representation of the skill and/or "heroicness" of the pilots, it doesn't necessarily make for good gameplay.
The tactical depth provided by the Runewars system would be superb in X-wing (not to mention the responsiveness of choosing manoeuvre directions on the fly). If it existed in X-Wing it wouldn't prevent the representation of skilled/heroic pilots any more than it prevents Runewars representing mighty heroes.
Well I agree that X-Wing in later waves has derailed from its core premise, its actually part of the reason I kind of stopped collecting and at this point kind of stopped playing the game at least on that level. I still enjoy an occasional Epic match where my friends and I build themed lists. But I do agree. The game has become kind of bloated and very specialized, for me it kind of derailed with the introduction of TLT's, even though K-Wings are among my favorite ships in X-Wing today. I think the 360 shooting with a circumvention of green dice as a defense mechanisms has reached a point where as you say its become "a Grim LCG where a battle is more often than not decided in list building rather then on the performance of the table".
This however to me is a matter of choice. Certainly if you play competitive your stuck in this frame work, but if your playing the game for fun, making some basic table rules with friends is all it takes to eliminate this bad element.
As for Pilot skill, we will have to agree to disagree. I feel strongly that the way initiative works in X-Wing is quite perfect for it and while certainly introducing the Runewars fashioned mechanic would create a very different game, it would make it too complex for what X-Wing is supposed to be. Its a simple, fast, light hearted game of tactical movement for casual gamers and while it has been turned into a far fatter beast today with modern waves that has altered this for the worse, I still believe that X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter game is very much there to be had with some simple house rules.
On 4/18/2017 at 6:29 AM, BigKahuna said:Hmm.. I have to disagree with you on this one, at least for the most part.
Certainly its clear that Runewars has taken many lessons from both X-Wing and Armada but X-Wing was never designed to be, nor really functions as a Miniatures game. It was designed to be (and is) a quick, simple and straight forward game of ship to ship combat. Its light, fast, easy to learn, easy to teach and straight to the point and while there is plenty of depth to sink your teeth into for the more advanced player, it really isn't designed for hardcore gamers. Its really what I would call a "Light" miniatures game or perhaps even better to say "Light Table Top Game" because it really has more in common with a board game then it does with a miniatures game.
Green Dice are there to create the exact mechanic X-Wing needed, luck. Its really that simple. Its a game where you can get lucky and win, because its designed to be and while certainly their is plenty of modification and ways to work around it, roll badly in X-Wing and you can lose no matter how well you planned and vice versus, play poorly but roll well and you can get lucky and win. It might not be to your taste, but it wouldn't be the same game if it were not for this mechanic.
The initiative system is actually one of the best parts of X-Wing. It creates a dynamic to the relevance of who is in the cockpit of a fighter, giving it one of many layers of decision. I don't think its a good mechanic for the purposes of Runewars, but for X-Wing it works perfectly.
And no.. flanking, absolutely, positively should not and does not matter in a ship to ship (fighter to fighter) combat. Adding flanking would have simply added to the complexity of a simple game unnecessarily so I completely disagree, flanking should never be a part of this game.
I see where you going with the double dial and perhaps one day we will see a re-vamping of X-Wing, but adding this layer of depth would raise the complexity of the game unnecessarily. X-Wing is a simple game because its meant to be simple.
"It was designed to be (and is) a quick, simple and straight forward game of ship to ship combat. Its light, fast, easy to learn, easy to teach and straight to the point and while there is plenty of depth to sink your teeth into for the more advanced player, it really isn't designed for hardcore gamers."
X-wing is none of those thing.
It is longer than Runewars which has a turn limit and rather fast resolution system, and it is in no way a straight forward game of ship to ship combat - not anymore. Someone else already said that the game has become an LCG with ships you push around. It's so far less about flying ships than it is bringing the right cards. It may be easy to learn, and sorta easy to teach, this game is absolutely and completely designed for hardcore gamers. In fact I'd say that the only game out there right now with more hardcore gamers might be MtG.
Green dice are abysmal. They are the worst mechanic in X-wing - and you hit right on the point. Luck. Pure Luck. You might as well play Monopoly if you want luck to dictate a game. There are many reasons that there is so much mitigation in the game designed to alter, re-roll, or just outright ignore dice. These are the modern power mechanics because they Remove Luck. You can actually fly a squad as you want to when Luck is largely mitigated. There is only 1 mechanic in X-wing that is actually worse than green dice.
I dunno, maybe I play in a way too competitive environment, but I do not see any of this lighthearted, quick, and simple game everyone seems to be discussing. That game idea has been dead since wave 4.
Initiative.
I actually do not heavily care about the fact that it is static, and always resolves in the same order. I think Runewars is far more interesting in how it works, but neither of these issues is actually the problem with PS in X-wing.
The problem with PS in X-wing is that the scale point values go up in a linear manner (roughly 1pt per PS), but the power and effectiveness of PS is actually exponential. A PS 9 pilot is not +8 steps of power over a PS1 pilot, but instead they are 8! more powerful. They act after 8! more ships than PS1, allowing high PS arc dodgers to react best, and they attack before 8! more ships, allowing them to get fully modifiable shots that have a far higher chance of killing / damaging / etc an enemy ship before other ships. This was poorly handled in the points costs. Coupled with the fact that generally higher pilot ratings also have the better abilities and a greater chance of access to an EPT. The PS system is completely out of wack. About the only ship that got it right was PS8 Poe to PS9 Poe... and no one liked that because of certain cards like VI and Adaptability that have also skewed PS values.
As for flanking in a ship to ship game... well it absolutely should be in there. It's what is known as Lead Pursuit in fighter combat. It's the BEST way to attack the defending plane. It gives your shots lead, creating the chance of scoring more hits. It should absolutely be in a dog fighting game. Not this Range 1 Range 3 nonsense. Position should matter more. Further more... this tailing or flanking or lead was already in a fighter to fighter game... Wings of War - the direct predecessor to X-wing.
"The problem with PS in X-wing is that the scale point values go up in a linear manner (roughly 1pt per PS)"
- Amen brother! While I'm generally less critical of the game than you, playing Runewars in ceratinly opening my eyes to some of its core limitations.
On 4/17/2017 at 11:48 PM, Wispur said:This isn't directly related to X-Wing, but rather another Flightpath game.
For me, this looks like an evolved and improved version of D&D Attack Wing.
The way units worked in that game was pretty weak, but the potential for ranked combat in the Flightpath system was always there.
This looks like the game that one should have been.
+1d6+1!
I reached this very same conclusion as soon as we started our demo game. My son and I were hugely into D&D Attack Wing, and while I actually liked the unit rules, I also recognize that they were clunky and forced. At the scale D&DAW was presented, it should never have had troop rules at all, keeping the game a pure skirmish game of single creatures.
RMG is such a step forward for a fantasy game using the Flight Path system. It supports mass ranks of troops, while at the same time allows single monstrous figures to be effective on the field. I really hope FFG has plans for a dragon, because whatever faction I'm playing at the time the dragon comes out is going to get dropped in favor of dragons.
6 hours ago, BigKahuna said:As for Pilot skill, we will have to agree to disagree. I feel strongly that the way initiative works in X-Wing is quite perfect for it and while certainly introducing the Runewars fashioned mechanic would create a very different game, it would make it too complex for what X-Wing is supposed to be. Its a simple, fast, light hearted game of tactical movement for casual gamers and while it has been turned into a far fatter beast today with modern waves that has altered this for the worse, I still believe that X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter game is very much there to be had with some simple house rules.
I have thought it would be cool if initiative changed based on squad points at the beginning of each round.
I started getting sick of X-Wing when Armada came out. The flaws in the system starting being noticeable then. Runewars has just exacerbated the issue. I'm not saying that everything in Runewars could be adapted easily to X-Wing (or that it should be, this is a fantasy ground based game, not everything would work in a sci-fi starfighter based game), but it shows that the system can be very flexible.
I used to argue that one of the core features of X-Wing was simplicity. People would suggest "fixes" or house rules that were truly epic walls of text and numbers, and every time I would praise X-Wing's core simplicity.
That has pretty much all changed now. Sure, you can still have truly casual games, but new actions, upgrades, pilots, ships and general bloat has really impacted that core simplicity. The rules for Armada and Runewars may be more complicated to grasp initially (but I'm no longer convinced of that), but the end result is more simple since the designers have learned from X-Wing. X-Wing has the dubious honor of being first, and it's younger siblings have taken advantage of that to learn from X-Wings mistakes.
I have to be honest, if they do a second edition with a conversion kit, I will check out X-Wing again. For now, I've got Armada, Runewars and IA (with the occasional Descent purchase since Runewars reinvigorated my interest in that).
9 hours ago, FatherTurin said:I started getting sick of X-Wing when Armada came out. The flaws in the system starting being noticeable then. Runewars has just exacerbated the issue. I'm not saying that everything in Runewars could be adapted easily to X-Wing (or that it should be, this is a fantasy ground based game, not everything would work in a sci-fi starfighter based game), but it shows that the system can be very flexible.
I used to argue that one of the core features of X-Wing was simplicity. People would suggest "fixes" or house rules that were truly epic walls of text and numbers, and every time I would praise X-Wing's core simplicity.
That has pretty much all changed now. Sure, you can still have truly casual games, but new actions, upgrades, pilots, ships and general bloat has really impacted that core simplicity. The rules for Armada and Runewars may be more complicated to grasp initially (but I'm no longer convinced of that), but the end result is more simple since the designers have learned from X-Wing. X-Wing has the dubious honor of being first, and it's younger siblings have taken advantage of that to learn from X-Wings mistakes.
I have to be honest, if they do a second edition with a conversion kit, I will check out X-Wing again. For now, I've got Armada, Runewars and IA (with the occasional Descent purchase since Runewars reinvigorated my interest in that).
This is a general problem with all miniature games, expansion bloat. It will happen to Armada and Runewars as well in time, in fact, it will probably happen to Runewars very quickly. The complexity level of Runewars is extremely high because of how the dials are setup 2 sided. Consider that in the core set alone there are 8 two sided dials that you effectively have to commit to memory as so much of the games strategy and tactics depend on your understanding of your dials and your opponents dials. In fact, this information is what 90% of all decisions are based. By the time the first wave comes out the amount of dials will have doubled not to mention all of the special abilities and upgrade cards. This game is going to bloat at a neck bracing pace.
Armada has already reached that point as well, there are now 15 unique ships (x2 for the two types) and stacks of upgrades. Its difficult to keep it all straight and in terms "releases" Armada is still in its infancy.
X-Wing just happens to be much further along, consider that its been out now for 5 years compared to Armadas 2 years. It means by the time Armada is 5 years old there will be around 40 ships. With Runewars there is no telling but we are in wave 1 and by the time the expansion are released we will have three armies and that's just the beginning.
Mechanic & complexity bloat is the natural progression of all collectible games and unlike CCG's, collectible miniatures never do anything abou it. At least in CCG's they create "blocks" where only certain sets are valid at any given point, at least in terms of competitive play to try to minimize this but with miniature games pretty much every new unit is just thrown on top of the pile.
I also think people tend to suffer from Veterans fatigue a lot more in miniature games then anywhere else. In the X-Wing community veteran fatigue is really kicking in now, the game has been out for 5 years and people are seeing greener pastures on the other side. This is also quite normal for miniature games.
7 hours ago, BigKahuna said:This is a general problem with all miniature games, expansion bloat. It will happen to Armada and Runewars as well in time, in fact, it will probably happen to Runewars very quickly. The complexity level of Runewars is extremely high because of how the dials are setup 2 sided. Consider that in the core set alone there are 8 two sided dials that you effectively have to commit to memory as so much of the games strategy and tactics depend on your understanding of your dials and your opponents dials. In fact, this information is what 90% of all decisions are based. By the time the first wave comes out the amount of dials will have doubled not to mention all of the special abilities and upgrade cards. This game is going to bloat at a neck bracing pace.
Armada has already reached that point as well, there are now 15 unique ships (x2 for the two types) and stacks of upgrades. Its difficult to keep it all straight and in terms "releases" Armada is still in its infancy.
X-Wing just happens to be much further along, consider that its been out now for 5 years compared to Armadas 2 years. It means by the time Armada is 5 years old there will be around 40 ships. With Runewars there is no telling but we are in wave 1 and by the time the expansion are released we will have three armies and that's just the beginning.
Mechanic & complexity bloat is the natural progression of all collectible games and unlike CCG's, collectible miniatures never do anything abou it. At least in CCG's they create "blocks" where only certain sets are valid at any given point, at least in terms of competitive play to try to minimize this but with miniature games pretty much every new unit is just thrown on top of the pile.
I also think people tend to suffer from Veterans fatigue a lot more in miniature games then anywhere else. In the X-Wing community veteran fatigue is really kicking in now, the game has been out for 5 years and people are seeing greener pastures on the other side. This is also quite normal for miniature games.
I totally understand and agree with the substance of your points.
I do think, however, that both Armada and Runewars will have slightly longer legs. My feeling (and it's just that, a feeling, my education is nowhere near the fields to study or analyze this in depth) is that part of the issues with X-Wing came from trying to tweak the game while attempting to leave the core system alone. Upgrades that are price fixes, new mechanics, etc. are added to a game system that really was not designed with that sort of expansion in mind.
Armada and Runewars, on the other hand, have a tighter design that is inherently more complex and has the fluidity to adapt to new mechanics rather well. In a manner of speaking, they appear to have been future proofed a bit better. For example, boarding parties are being added to Armada in a way that feels satisfying and yet mechanically is just a funky attack.
I'm sure that eventually Armada and Runewars will suffer the same fate, but after stepping back from X-Wing for a few months and having a retrospective of where the game was when I started back in Wave 3 to now, it's just a mess. Granted I'm certainly happy that the game is no longer "tie swarm or gtfo" but keeping track of errata, on top of the cards that flat out change the rules is just exhausting. I don't regret my investment in X-Wing, I'm not selling anything off, and I will probably return to it in the future (probably sooner rather than later since X-Wing is just so much bigger locally than Armada) but it's really nice to have something fresh to try out with a super refined version of what I feel is one of the best mechanical systems in miniatures games.
Edited by FatherTurinAnyway, to answer the OP's question: I may not be the best person to answer that (based on the above), but if you are an X-Wing player you should play Runewars if you like fantasy settings and want to play a refined version of the flight path system.
If you have no interest in fantasy or painting, play Armada. It is a better design than X-Wing in every single way, and in my opinion even that white knuckle thrill of dogfighting is starting to leech away from X-Wing.
Also the lore is pretty cool.
Very much unfortunately for my wallet , I'm in on all 3 games (x-wing first, then Armada, now Runewars)
It's not so much better/worse, fixed...it is different, different is good, just like xwing and armada.
it isn't necessarily an exclusive thing, there's enough X-wing and Armada choices now that I'll never explore them all with what I have.
X-wing is like a favorite old chair, comfortable, Armada is a bit of a marathon, but I got into X-wing for the Epic battles (bombing/torpedo runs against a capital ship with escorts and CAP).
I would not paint, hate painting, did it, not horrible at it, hated it, won't do it agai...well now, let's not be hasty... that's a pretty cool game...
Paints and 2 core sets are on order...The elves are announced!!
*sigh*
my wallet hates me.
9 hours ago, Adun42 said:Very much unfortunately for my wallet , I'm in on all 3 games (x-wing first, then Armada, now Runewars)
It's not so much better/worse, fixed...it is different, different is good, just like xwing and armada.
it isn't necessarily an exclusive thing, there's enough X-wing and Armada choices now that I'll never explore them all with what I have.
X-wing is like a favorite old chair, comfortable, Armada is a bit of a marathon, but I got into X-wing for the Epic battles (bombing/torpedo runs against a capital ship with escorts and CAP).
I would not paint, hate painting, did it, not horrible at it, hated it, won't do it agai...well now, let's not be hasty... that's a pretty cool game...
Paints and 2 core sets are on order...The elves are announced!!
*sigh*
my wallet hates me.
Peas in a pod, Adun
11 hours ago, Adun42 said:Very much unfortunately for my wallet , I'm in on all 3 games (x-wing first, then Armada, now Runewars)
It's not so much better/worse, fixed...it is different, different is good, just like xwing and armada.
it isn't necessarily an exclusive thing, there's enough X-wing and Armada choices now that I'll never explore them all with what I have.
X-wing is like a favorite old chair, comfortable, Armada is a bit of a marathon, but I got into X-wing for the Epic battles (bombing/torpedo runs against a capital ship with escorts and CAP).
I would not paint, hate painting, did it, not horrible at it, hated it, won't do it agai...well now, let's not be hasty... that's a pretty cool game...
Paints and 2 core sets are on order...The elves are announced!!
*sigh*
my wallet hates me.
Dude you are preaching to the Choir. When Runewars was first announced I didn't even bother reading the article. Saw that it was assemble and paint and it was an instant pass. Friend bought it, played it once. 3 Core Sets on the shelf. My ATM card pretty much belongs to FFG now, outside of the occasional carton of milk the only transaction on it say "FFG". I'm too embarrassed to even reveal how much I spend on FFG products every month, suffice to say, I'm putting someones kids through college.
And now its going to even be worse with Legend of the Five Rings... meh.