If you're hitting all the time in IA the defender is probably defending wrong.

That said, I do like the multi-dice systems in Armada and IA.

X-Wing could still introduce new dice ... simply introduce a new die in a ship expansion that uses the new die, with upgrade cards that allow the new die to be used on other ships. Then if you have the die, you have the upgrades to use it, and vice versa. So for example:

Black Die: Double hit, crit, four hits, two blanks

Modification: Enhanced Weaponry (2 pts). Replace one red attack die in your dice pool with one black die.

The X-Man symbol in Imperial Assault is a vile scourge that wildly swings games. Imperial assault is a game where your attacks generally always do damage, or if you're out of range you can surge for accuracy, or if a black die ends up with 3 blocks, you can surge to pierce 2 of those. Imperial Assault is a game designed as if it was X-Wing with red dice having no misses on them, so having the X-Man is as if one of the sides on the green die blocked all damage no matter what.

This wouldn't be a problem if the white die was just limited to the likes of minor support characters. But when medium-high health power pieces with regen like Bossk or Luke have then, it's really stupid.

The dice in X-Wing are fine. The problem is when you have a wall of tokens and rerolls and other dice mods that take the dice out of the equation.

When one side has autothrusters and Palpatine, and the other just has 3 attack dice with maybe a single modifier, no one is actually playing the game at that point. The player with guaranteed mods is just leading the other around on a leash, and the player being led around on the leash only has the illusion that he can damage anything.

X-wing dice are fickle, but generally fair. They're considerably more than fair if you have modifiers, which is where lists immediately tend to verge toward the "why does this feel unbalanced" end. The ability to stack as many of those modifiers as possible is possibly what's skewing some of your anecdotal results.

Dice are dice, it's the modification that'll kill you (or lack thereof).

The dice mechanics are far better in Armada and IA. The element of chance is still there but bad luck isn't game destroying. Far too often in X-Wing one very bad roll determines the outcome of a game. Dice which determine the degree of success are far more fun to play with than dice which can utterly fail even when everything is done right. No single thing impedes X-Wing more.

2 hours ago, charlesanakin said:

The dice mechanics are far better in Armada and IA. The element of chance is still there but bad luck isn't game destroying. Far too often in X-Wing one very bad roll determines the outcome of a game. Dice which determine the degree of success are far more fun to play with than dice which can utterly fail even when everything is done right. No single thing impedes X-Wing more.

I disagree. I think it's extremely rare to have 1 dice roll swing a game. Sure, if you roll crit-crit-crit against a ship with 4 hull left and pull a direct hit, but that might happen any game. I think it's the list at fault if it completely lost on a dice roll - for example, soontir dies if he rolls eye-eye-eye with no tokens, but why did he have no tokens? Because either he didn't arc dodge, got blocked, or couldn't PTL.

10 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

X-Wing could still introduce new dice ... simply introduce a new die in a ship expansion that uses the new die, with upgrade cards that allow the new die to be used on other ships. Then if you have the die, you have the upgrades to use it, and vice versa. So for example:

Black Die: Double hit, crit, four hits, two blanks

Modification: Enhanced Weaponry (2 pts). Replace one red attack die in your dice pool with one black die.

Another possibility would be to include dice that don't require any modification equipped. Only a rules reference card:

When attacking, before rolling dice, you may replace any amount of red dice with the same amount of these dice:

• Lower risk lower reward Yellow dice: 4 hit, 3 eye, 1 blank symbols.
  For those that hate blanking twice.
• Higher risk, higher reward Orange dice: 1 (crit+crit+hit), 1 (crit+hit), 1 hit, 4 blank results.
  For those that like hitting hard or missing hard.
• Precision Purple dice: 2 (hit+precision), 2 hit, 1 (eye+precision), 1 eye, 2 blank results. Precision results need to be cancelled before hit or crit results, but they deal no damage.
  For A-wings and other ships with low attack score.
• Utility White dice: 2 hit, 2 eye, 2 free action, 2 blank.
  For ships that have attack score, but you don't really use them for dealing damage.

15 hours ago, StevenO said:

YES, it would be very different. If you want to take the blanks off red dice then why don't we also take all of the blanks off of the green dice as well? You want to get rid of most of the randomness on one side so what are you going to do for the other side unless you are hoping to COMPLETELY alter the EXPECTED results?

When i said different, i was implying "better"... and i'm only looking at the red dice, but yeah if we remove blanks on reds, we obviously balance it out on the green side.

13 hours ago, EdgeOfDreams said:

It would be interesting if the game had been designed back at the beginning so that range bonuses add a *result*, not a die. So, at Range 1, you add 1 <hit> result to your attack. At Range 3, you add one <Evade> result to your defense.

THIS i like...might have to try it out casually and see what impact it has!

10 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

X-Wing could still introduce new dice ... [...]

Black Die: Double hit, crit, four hits, two blanks

Modification: Enhanced Weaponry (2 pts). Replace one red attack die in your dice pool with one black die.

I get the feeling Xwing is far too entrenched in its current mechanics to introduce new elements. We can barely get improvements/fixes on obvious deficiencies in the game, so new dice seems unlikely. Though the arrival of Conditions did surprise me, so you never know...

4 hours ago, NakedDex said:

X-wing dice are fickle, but generally fair.

I agree, they are GENERALLY fair. My issue is not with the overall balance of the game and its dice, but rather the small but ever-present possibility of having an attack just blank out on you, despite your best efforts to get into a good position and perform the best actions. But, like everyone has reminded me in this discussion, Xwing is above all a dice game, and this is an inherent risk in dice games...i guess i just don't like it! XD

4 hours ago, charlesanakin said:

Far too often in X-Wing one very bad roll determines the outcome of a game.

Agreed.

1 hour ago, ThalanirIII said:

I think it's extremely rare to have 1 dice roll swing a game.

Maybe not 1 dice roll swinging the entire game, but can you not remember a game where a (decently prepared) attack completely failed and left the opponent able to attack in return, possibly even killing you? In that situation, it's impossible to not feel even a little bit infuriated in the next rounds, thinking "that ship shouldn't be on the table, **** you dice". It's that one moment of "powerless-ness" that I resent and feel shouldn't be in a game based on careful preparation, planning, anticipation and execution. Of course, Xwing (like all games) needs a certain element of "****, if only I had been luckier", but having the possibility of failing completely due to luck is a shame in my mind.

Ultimately, i've come to see xwing as a fun game in a universe that I adore, which requires lots of thought and consideration but after all that, it can all come to nothing due to pure blind luck. It's a shame but it's the game!

1 minute ago, Gingerleo said:

Maybe not 1 dice roll swinging the entire game, but can you not remember a game where a (decently prepared) attack completely failed and left the opponent able to attack in return, possibly even killing you? In that situation, it's impossible to not feel even a little bit infuriated in the next rounds, thinking "that ship shouldn't be on the table, **** you dice". It's that one moment of "powerless-ness" that I resent and feel shouldn't be in a game based on careful preparation, planning, anticipation and execution. Of course, Xwing (like all games) needs a certain element of "****, if only I had been luckier", but having the possibility of failing completely due to luck is a shame in my mind.

Ultimately, i've come to see xwing as a fun game in a universe that I adore, which requires lots of thought and consideration but after all that, it can all come to nothing due to pure blind luck. It's a shame but it's the game!

Well at the same time, you remember that time when soontir had no tokens and was range 3 through a rock, rolled 6 eyes and you rolled crits - that is the opposite.

I'd rather have the opportunity for swings like that, so long as they aren't too common and they happen both ways. It's not like chess where you make a mistake and then just watch the game slip away completely.

1 minute ago, ThalanirIII said:

Well at the same time, you remember that time when soontir had no tokens and was range 3 through a rock, rolled 6 eyes and you rolled crits - that is the opposite.

I'd rather have the opportunity for swings like that, so long as they aren't too common and they happen both ways. It's not like chess where you make a mistake and then just watch the game slip away completely.

True. I will admit it's common that I forget that the dice randomness is balanced on both sides (even if sometimes it doesn't seem that way!!!)

My two cents as an experienced I.A. player (both sides of the barricade).

How can you hit and damage with EVERY attack every time? which perspective are we talking about?

If you are a hero, you should and you will hit, severy wounf and kill with almost every attack, especially against targets like stormtroopers or weequee pirates. The are meatshield: you are suppose to kill them quickly. But then, there comes officers (white dice with rerolls), or royal guards (+1 defence when adjacent), or Gamorean guards (+1 defence against ranged attacks). You will completely miss on officers roughly 30% of the time (evade rolled on first or second dice roll). You will deal reduced damage to royal/gamoreans. And then you will come against darth vader/boba Fett/AT-ST with 2 black dice... also dont forget you are the hero here: you are meant to hit and kill with most of the attacks. It must be cinematic. The bad guys are there to delay you, not to kill you.

If you are the bad gu, and you are hitting with every attack, then clearly the heroes are doing something wrong. Gaarkhan is the best example here: with a correct set of items and skills, he can be 17+ health and can tank 3-4 points of damage just from items, once a turn. Diala can reroll her wite dice for 30% chances of completely evade dice rolls. Jyn Odan can move after being shot, thus usually reducing the enemy focus fire to just one shot.

1 minute ago, Voitek said:

My two cents as an experienced I.A. player (both sides of the barricade).

How can you hit and damage with EVERY attack every time? which perspective are we talking about?

If you are a hero, you should and you will hit, severy wounf and kill with almost every attack, especially against targets like stormtroopers or weequee pirates. The are meatshield: you are suppose to kill them quickly. But then, there comes officers (white dice with rerolls), or royal guards (+1 defence when adjacent), or Gamorean guards (+1 defence against ranged attacks). You will completely miss on officers roughly 30% of the time (evade rolled on first or second dice roll). You will deal reduced damage to royal/gamoreans. And then you will come against darth vader/boba Fett/AT-ST with 2 black dice... also dont forget you are the hero here: you are meant to hit and kill with most of the attacks. It must be cinematic. The bad guys are there to delay you, not to kill you.

If you are the bad gu, and you are hitting with every attack, then clearly the heroes are doing something wrong. Gaarkhan is the best example here: with a correct set of items and skills, he can be 17+ health and can tank 3-4 points of damage just from items, once a turn. Diala can reroll her wite dice for 30% chances of completely evade dice rolls. Jyn Odan can move after being shot, thus usually reducing the enemy focus fire to just one shot.

I play mostly skirmish, so I almost always have command cards in my hand to boost range or damage. And again, like i said, i don't mind having my attacks blocked by beefy targets such as Vader etc...that's their purpose in the game! My problem is rolling a fully prepared attack, looking down and just going "Oh, ok. Never mind."

In IA, if you attack a white dice, you are prepared to face the infamous dodge; that's why you should always attack it with a figure that can force rerolls (HK, Weequay...). But most importantly, if you understand how the different dice work in IA you will always hit! An officer should never really go for long shots, just like Hired Guns and Rebel Saboteurs. So in the end your attack is not wasted, it's just up to the defender to find the necessary tools (& luck) to block as much damage as possible, or dodge the entire attack. I find it much more entertaining...

A blocked/dodged attack is still more satisfying and easy to accept than an attack that just does nothing before the defender even rolls his dice.

Just to, be clear, i'm not complaining about the dice in general, but rather the (slim but ever-present) chance of rolling a failed attack when you've done everything right.

If, for example, i boost to get into range 1 and perform an unmodified attack rather than focus at range 2, i am fully expecting to have a mediocre attack.

1 hour ago, Gingerleo said:

Just to, be clear, i'm not complaining about the dice in general, but rather the (slim but ever-present) chance of rolling a failed attack when you've done everything right.

If, for example, i boost to get into range 1 and perform an unmodified attack rather than focus at range 2, i am fully expecting to have a mediocre attack.

i guess it's all about the specifics of ground vs aerial combat.

When you have a fat gamorean guard charging you, you will pretty much always hit him with your blaster, but some of the damage will be stopped by his body armour.

when you dogfight in space, there will be a lot of missing shot by default. Depending on the target - interceptors or Awings with Focus+evade will be way harder to hit (unless caught in crossfire by 2 or more enemy ships), while missing a Ghost or a party buss is not a common sight.

The only sure thing about luck is it will change.

I find using a dice tower helps the dice results feel less personal both when bad and when good.

Variance in a game means that a less skilled player can get lucky against a more skilled player. (It also means a more skilled player can also get lucky, but they were going to win anyway in that case.) This is a good thing, in that games are not as easy to predict, and thus aren't decided on turn 0. (In theory)

This is why I almost always play out my games. I've pulled a few close victories simply because I knew that conceding was the only guaranteed way to lose the match.

6 hours ago, Gingerleo said:

Just to, be clear, i'm not complaining about the dice in general, but rather the (slim but ever-present) chance of rolling a failed attack when you've done everything right.

If, for example, i boost to get into range 1 and perform an unmodified attack rather than focus at range 2, i am fully expecting to have a mediocre attack.

And that's when you have to make a decision between a focused range 2 attack, or an unfocused range 1 attack. Those kinds of decisions are what makes the game fun and challenging. If there's always a right answer, there's really no decision to be made, and you may as well write a bot to play your game for you.

1 hour ago, Koing907 said:

And that's when you have to make a decision between a focused range 2 attack, or an unfocused range 1 attack. Those kinds of decisions are what makes the game fun and challenging. If there's always a right answer, there's really no decision to be made, and you may as well write a bot to play your game for you.

This is one issue I have with dice. If I take a Focus I roll Blank-Blank-Blank; but if I take a target lock it is Focus-Focus-Focus.

2 minutes ago, Cusm said:

This is one issue I have with dice. If I take a Focus I roll Blank-Blank-Blank; but if I take a target lock it is Focus-Focus-Focus.

That's bad, but at least you can reroll your Focus-Focus-Focus getting Blank-Blank-Blank. And you don't think the random god's are with you. What are the odds of that?

13 minutes ago, Cusm said:

This is one issue I have with dice. If I take a Focus I roll Blank-Blank-Blank; but if I take a target lock it is Focus-Focus-Focus.

Focus can still be used defensively.

1 hour ago, Ken at Sunrise said:

That's bad, but at least you can reroll your Focus-Focus-Focus getting Blank-Blank-Blank. And you don't think the random god's are with you. What are the odds of that?

With my luck about 99.98%. I also have had Soontir die at least 3 times rolling 6 green dice. but that was before I retired some dice.

Here's why I like the Dice in X-Wing: They give hope.

In some games like Netrunner, of which I am a fan, a lot of games are won or lost in the deckbuilding stage, before the game even begins. Some decks can perform so consistently well that your homemade C-tier list you like to play for fun stands such a tiny chance of winning you might as well not even bother playing it.

In X-Wing, for the most part even a crummy deck you fly for fun stands at least a slim chance if you fly super well and the dice are on your side. We've obviously seen some cards like Zuckuss and 4-LOM that really remove any chance of that 'one lucky roll' that saves the game, but for the most part good flying is rewarded.

How many of the best moments in X-Wing have been because of a certain roll? Luke Skywalker rolling 2 nautral evades 3 times in a row and then going on to regen his shields and blast away a TIE Fighter can only happen because of the large random element. It might not make the game the most conducive to super competitive play, but its much more cinematic than Armada's system, where you can basically make anything you want die if you shoot it enough.

Oh, and obviously Paul Heaver winning worlds three times in a row should show you that ultimatly the dice can't stop you if you're a good enough pilot.

1 hour ago, Cusm said:

This is one issue I have with dice. If I take a Focus I roll Blank-Blank-Blank; but if I take a target lock it is Focus-Focus-Focus.

Every time? Or are you bothered that it's even a possibility?

31 minutes ago, Cusm said:

With my luck about 99.98%. I also have had Soontir die at least 3 times rolling 6 green dice. but that was before I retired some dice.

http://stayontheleader.blogspot.com/2016/03/in-my-experience-theres-no-such-thing.html

Sometimes, once folks come around (correctly) to the idea that "random is random, and probability makes sense" they over-correct, and stop believing in luck (bad or good) altogether. This is almost as wrong as believing sincerely in superstition.

Luck -- as a description of something that has happened -- is not fallacious. Somewhere in the world, as I type this, someone has just flipped a coin and gotten 10 heads in a row. (Whether that's lucky or unlucky depends on whether they cared which it was, and which they wanted.) Somewhere in the world, there are X-Wing players who -- probably up until their next game -- have consistently ended up on either side of the X-Wing dice bell curve, under one of the three-SD tails.

If we take the statement, "Wow, I have been unlucky at X-Wing," it's important to understand that while that statement might be false -- might be a product of perception bias, whatever -- that statement is not automatically false.

Compare that to, "I am unlucky at X-Wing." If the speaker means, literally, that he believes that any time he plays X-Wing he will roll poorly, then that statement is fallacious.

On 11/04/2017 at 10:42 AM, Gingerleo said:

So, back to the problem of having your lasers somehow decide to not fire anything...what if range 1 attacks were structured differently. Rather than having an extra dice, your range 1 bonus is being able to turn all blanks into eyeballs. That way, your only excuse for not hitting your target is because you weren't focused (basically, the pilot wasn't concentrating); but at least the obvious advantage of being at range 1 = having your target RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF YOU is respected and it is impossible to miss if you are focused/"concentrating"

Eh. The dice system is abstracting a lot of stuff. If you go that path, then it should actually be harder to hit an enemy ship near you, IF they're moving across from you, rather than towards or away from. Two spaceships crossing each other paths at close range would only be in each other's sights for a tiny fraction of a second. So, yea, you can't go the "realism" way to justify changes to the range mechanism, not if you're not also calculating vector position and relations to judge how easy or hard it would be to hit. And that sounds like it would be hard and not very fun to do.

If you go gameplay only.. Well, it's a design choice. The expectation of a die roll makes the game more exciting, it allows for amazing surprises, both good and bad, and, yes, it fits the "great shot! that was one in a million!" that's a huge part of the movies. Flying against the odds, trying something crazy and desperate. I get it that it could be frustrating for someone who REALLY wants to win a match, but for the more casual player, these fringe dice results make the game a lot more fun and memorable. And if you're a very active player taking part in a lot of games, the results will even out in the end, anyway.

I'll probably never forget, for instance, when a friend resisted ELEVEN attacks without taking a single hit in Zombicide (he had a single hit point and a 50% chance to avoid damage. If even one of these attacks hit him, we would be defeated in an hour-long mission). We go back to that story every once in a while. That's what the randomness in dice brings in.

If you haven't yet done it, I'd recommend reading the articles on dice, variance, and mitigation over at Stay on the Leader:
http://stayontheleader.blogspot.com.br/2016/02/never-tell-me-odds-x-wing-dice-for.html

To close it off: yea, I'd sure appreciate different dice in a hypothetical 2nd edition of xwing. Something to differentiate very accurate and very damaging attacks. But keep the chance for unexpected wild results, they are good fun imo.