20 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Touching, in this game, may occur for reasons other than an overlap. Exiting terrain and squaring up both result in touching without overlap

Exactly. Which is why I think it will only cause confusion if you try to reference X-Wing when discussing situations in which you touch but don't overlap, because that is something that is possible in Runewars but not possible in X-Wing.

4 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

Exactly. Which is why I think it will only cause confusion if you try to reference X-Wing when discussing situations in which you touch but don't overlap, because that is something that is possible in Runewars but not possible in X-Wing.

Conceded.

It's not a good idea to consider definitions from other FFG games as precedent for rulings, just the contents of the RMG RRG

So here is my current thinking: if my Spearmen collide with a terrain, I could reform next turn and end touching the terrain, but because I didn't March or Shift I didn't collide.

Next question: my Spearmen 9-tray formation collides with a terrain that it can't occupy because of tray limits while trying to March, and stops moving. They end the turn touching the terrain. An enemy Reanimates unit uses March+Charge next turn while my Spearmen are trying to Reform to go around. They collide with the terrain, ending their movement. Then they occupy it, which means they count as engaged with the Spearmen, and their charge modifier remains uncanceled. 81.8.III specifies they count as colliding. Do the Reanimates get a bonus action for colliding during a move action. I thought yes they do, but now rereading 81.2.ii it specifically says the units activation ends immediately and other actions are cancelled, so it seems they shouldn't.

Some odd questions for those of you who have the core game and its components.

Are there hills in it? If so, do they have a tray limit?

Are there any terrains that don't have tray limits?

8 minutes ago, Taki said:

Some odd questions for those of you who have the core game and its components.

Are there hills in it? If so, do they have a tray limit?

Are there any terrains that don't have tray limits?

There is an elevated pice, don't have it with me, can't recall the tray limit. Only impassable terrain has no tray limit

1 hour ago, Taki said:

Some odd questions for those of you who have the core game and its components.

Are there hills in it? If so, do they have a tray limit?

Are there any terrains that don't have tray limits?

Go here

http://runewars.wikia.com/wiki/Terrain

Have fun.

P.S. the tray limit is denoted in the upper right of the terrain profile. It is the number next to the box icon.

It takes some mean rules lawyering to read section 18 and come out thinking you can start an activation touching terrain, perform a march, and suffer another collision.

5 hours ago, rowdyoctopus said:

It takes some mean rules lawyering to read section 18 and come out thinking you can start an activation touching terrain, perform a march, and suffer another collision.

Or just, I dunno, reading what the rules actually say, rather than filling in what we figure they should say.

I guess that's what rules lawyering is, though.

Do you prefer the interpretation where RR 18 means you can never occupy a piece of terrain you're already touching? I'd say that's a pretty big red flag.

Honestly, neither interpretation is 100% satisfactory.

5 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

Honestly, neither interpretation is 100% satisfactory.

Having read through it and slept on it, what's unsatisfactory about mine?

It's the only one I've read that allows all conditions to be satisfied, all rules followed, and doesn't have any anomalous or counterintuitive interactions.

All it requires is recognising that RR 18 is strangely and misleadingly written, which I think we can agree on.

We seem to hang up on not colliding with deadly terrain twice but it's not like you can do it by accident, and it's not like deadly or taxing terrain is going to cover the board at any point.

Run into spikes? Ouch. Don't do it again!

Frankly, I like this because it means that if I drew the morale card where I could force you to move, you could force the unit into the spikes to take damage. Retreating into a wall of spikes would indeed cause some problems, and it would be silly and irritating to have an expensive morale card nullified by a rules anomaly.

Wow, these rules are like Magic Eye illusions. If you look at them from a certain point of view, you can see a really neat picture, but if you look at it from a different point of view, it's just a mess.

After staring at it for a few more minutes, I think I agree with you.

So if we were to rewrite the collision section to include all the times collisions occur, what would it look like? I know it would include something from 55.3 about Movement and 60.1 about Overlapping.

23 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

Wow, these rules are like Magic Eye illusions. If you look at them from a certain point of view, you can see a really neat picture, but if you look at it from a different point of view, it's just a mess.

After staring at it for a few more minutes, I think I agree with you.

So if we were to rewrite the collision section to include all the times collisions occur, what would it look like? I know it would include something from 55.3 about Movement and 60.1 about Overlapping.

Simplicity is the goal, right? Then ideally we'd take the rule already written under RR-60.1 and put it under RR-18 as well. This doesn't actually change any rule, it just puts more relevant details under the Collision header.

So, "When a unit performs a march or shift action, if it would overlap an obstacle as part of that action, or if it ends movement touching an obstacle it was not touching before performing that action, it has collided with that obstacle"

You could follow that rule to RR-60 and RR-59.3, which would inform you as to what counts as an obstacle, and that you can ignore this rule so long as you're only overlapping a single tray of a friendly unit and don't stop on top of them.

Let Movement handle itself, since the procedure for moving back and placing your overlapped tray is covered in detail there.

In what situation can you simultaneously not overlap an obstacle while moving, AND end up touching it again? A shift that doesn't clear the obstacle? That seems like a very specific scenario, insomuch that it shouldn't require your entire collision rules to hinge on it.

21 minutes ago, rowdyoctopus said:

In what situation can you simultaneously not overlap an obstacle while moving, AND end up touching it again? A shift that doesn't clear the obstacle? That seems like a very specific scenario, insomuch that it shouldn't require your entire collision rules to hinge on it.

The thing is, RR-18 is not the complete collision rule. In fact, the actual rules for collision are shotgunned across the book in an annoying fashion. (Between Movement, Obstacles, Overlapping, etc. etc. And RR-18 even specifically references these other rules under "related topics")

The situation you're describing isn't strictly necessary to justify what is written under RR-18, though. It seems meant to cover simply being in contact with an obstacle (Say, because you collided with spikes) and then remaining in contact without moving to perform a ranged attack, rally, or reform. So long as you're not actively moving into the obstacle again, you're fine.

It also covers leaving a piece of occupied terrain with a keyword like Taxing. You would be performing a march, and ending your action in contact with an obstacle without ever overlapping it. RR-18 means you can leave a swamp without taking a bane token.

5 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

The thing is, RR-18 is not the complete collision rule. In fact, the actual rules for collision are shotgunned across the book in an annoying fashion.

The situation you're describing isn't strictly necessary to justify what is written under RR-18, though. It seems meant to cover simply being in contact with an obstacle (Say, because you collided with spikes) and then remaining in contact without moving to perform a ranged attack, rally, or reform. So long as you're not actively moving into the obstacle again, you're fine.

It also covers leaving a piece of occupied terrain with a keyword like Taxing. You would be performing a march, and ending your action in contact with an obstacle without ever overlapping it.

Section 18 IS the definition of collision. It also only covers movement. It has nothing to do with ranged attacks or any other action. It specifically says march or shift.

Other sections of the rules go over what happens when you collide, but 18 defines how you collide.

I'm totally ok with only being able to enter terrain when you initially collide. Entering terrain typically has benefits, and you lose whatever other modifier or bonus action you had when you enter, so I'm not sure why you would wait. To stay out of enemy range? Oh well.

15 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

It seems meant to cover simply being in contact with an obstacle (Say, because you collided with spikes) and then remaining in contact without moving to perform a ranged attack, rally, or reform.

This isn't necessary, is it? You can only collide with a march or shift command, so there is no reason to suppose that performing any other action would cause you to collide, and therefore there is no reason for 18 to be addressing that situation.

[Ninja'd]

20 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

It also covers leaving a piece of occupied terrain with a keyword like Taxing. You would be performing a march, and ending your action in contact with an obstacle without ever overlapping it. RR-18 means you can leave a swamp without taking a bane token.

Pretend for a second that RR-18 does not exist. What rule would direct you to take a bane token? I'm pretty sure RR-18 is the only place that says you collide by touching. The other instances are when you would overlap.

50 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

This isn't necessary, is it? You can only collide with a march or shift command, so there is no reason to suppose that performing any other action would cause you to collide, and therefore there is no reason for 18 to be addressing that situation.

[Ninja'd]

Pretend for a second that RR-18 does not exist. What rule would direct you to take a bane token? I'm pretty sure RR-18 is the only place that says you collide by touching. The other instances are when you would overlap.

If you're saying we could remove RR-18 from the book and everything would be fine, you'll have to pick another subject to argue about.

That said, I think RR-18 indicates that, if by some alignment of the planets, you execute a march or shift and when complete, the plastic of your tray is touching an obstacle but you didn't overlap that obstacle, you still count as having collided. It's not likely, but it will happen, and it's good to know what to do if/when it does. This includes terrain and units.

After all, what if you go to execute a charge? Charge is triggered specifically by collision, and if you didn't overlap but just touched, under normal rules you wouldn't collide. Under RR-18, you still collide and get to finish the charge.

Wrapped up in the rule under the rule is an allowance that permits you to exit terrain, be touching, and not collide.

55 minutes ago, rowdyoctopus said:

Section 18 IS the definition of collision. It also only covers movement. It has nothing to do with ranged attacks or any other action. It specifically says march or shift.

18 defines how you collide.

I agree it would seem that it should define collision, but if you read it, it really doesn't seem to.

It describes a timing window and a series of conditions, then states that if those conditions are met inside of that window, a collision occurs.

Other rules both describe alternate timing windows and conditions that can cause collision, and describe what Collision actually is and what it does based on the context in which it's occurring. Hell, 55.3 describes what you actually do when you collide in far more specificity than RR-18 does.

You're correct in that RR-18 doesn't mention anything but movement, it seems to cover the edge cases in which a march or shift fails to overlap you but does put you in contact with an obstacle like terrain, or an enemy, and the exception for obstacles you already were touching is there to keep you from colliding with terrain that you are exiting by performing a march or shift.

Again, this seems to be poorly explained and organized.

55 minutes ago, rowdyoctopus said:

I'm totally ok with only being able to enter terrain when you initially collide.

I think that's both counter intuitive and, IMO, not supported by RAW.

This would mean that units need to move backward and get a running start to enter terrain they're already touching.


EDIT: I'd also like to point out that this interpretation I'm putting forward meets the common sense test in almost every case, and that the only reason this even became a discussion is because someone decided RR-18 meant they could run face-first into a rock, then teleport past it on the next turn, which at this point most of us agree is neither possible nor sensible.

In the name of simplicity, I can boil it down to:

Moved and touching obstacle = Collide
Moved and overlapped obstacle = Collide
Moved to exit terrain and touching terrain = Don't collide
Moved along engaged enemy but didn't leave contact = Don't collide (Important for shift-charges)

EDIT 2:

Two units are engaged and squared up. One unit executes a lateral shift, moving one tray over, remaining in contact. According to RR-18 They do not collide. This is important because, as we've seen, some units such as the Leonx can execute a shift-charge, and a charge cannot trigger without a collision.

14 hours ago, drkpnthr said:

So here is my current thinking: if my Spearmen collide with a terrain, I could reform next turn and end touching the terrain, but because I didn't March or Shift I didn't collide.

Next question: my Spearmen 9-tray formation collides with a terrain that it can't occupy because of tray limits while trying to March, and stops moving. They end the turn touching the terrain. An enemy Reanimates unit uses March+Charge next turn while my Spearmen are trying to Reform to go around. They collide with the terrain, ending their movement. Then they occupy it, which means they count as engaged with the Spearmen, and their charge modifier remains uncanceled. 81.8.III specifies they count as colliding. Do the Reanimates get a bonus action for colliding during a move action. I thought yes they do, but now rereading 81.2.ii it specifically says the units activation ends immediately and other actions are cancelled, so it seems they shouldn't.

I wasn't sure if this was specifically answered, but you're correct, the reanimates don't charge in this case because the activation is over.

41 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

If you're saying we could remove RR-18 from the book and everything would be fine, you'll have to pick another subject to argue about.

That said, I think RR-18 indicates that, if by some alignment of the planets, you execute a march or shift and when complete, the plastic of your tray is touching an obstacle but you didn't overlap that obstacle, you still count as having collided. It's not likely, but it will happen, and it's good to know what to do if/when it does. This includes terrain and units.

After all, what if you go to execute a charge? Charge is triggered specifically by collision, and if you didn't overlap but just touched, under normal rules you wouldn't collide. Under RR-18, you still collide and get to finish the charge.

Wrapped up in the rule under the rule is an allowance that permits you to exit terrain, be touching, and not collide.

I agree it would seem that it should define collision, but if you read it, it really doesn't seem to.

It describes a timing window and a series of conditions, then states that if those conditions are met inside of that window, a collision occurs.

Other rules both describe alternate timing windows and conditions that can cause collision, and describe what Collision actually is and what it does based on the context in which it's occurring. Hell, 55.3 describes what you actually do when you collide in far more specificity than RR-18 does.

You're correct in that RR-18 doesn't mention anything but movement, it seems to cover the edge cases in which a march or shift fails to overlap you but does put you in contact with an obstacle like terrain, or an enemy, and the exception for obstacles you already were touching is there to keep you from colliding with terrain that you are exiting by performing a march or shift.

Again, this seems to be poorly explained and organized.

I think that's both counter intuitive and, IMO, not supported by RAW.

This would mean that units need to move backward and get a running start to enter terrain they're already touching.


EDIT: I'd also like to point out that this interpretation I'm putting forward meets the common sense test in almost every case, and that the only reason this even became a discussion is because someone decided RR-18 meant they could run face-first into a rock, then teleport past it on the next turn, which at this point most of us agree is neither possible nor sensible.

In the name of simplicity, I can boil it down to:

Moved and touching obstacle = Collide
Moved and overlapped obstacle = Collide
Moved to exit terrain and touching terrain = Don't collide

EDIT 2:

Two units are engaged and squared up. One unit executes a lateral shift, moving one tray over, remaining in contact. According to RR-18 They do not collide. This is important because, as we've seen, some units such as the Leonx can execute a shift-charge, and a charge cannot trigger without a collision.

I think I can agree to this interpretation, pending any new points brought to light. But I'm pretty sure we've examined most of the rules to death at this point XD

6 minutes ago, Willange said:

I think I can agree to this interpretation, pending any new points brought to light. But I'm pretty sure we've examined most of the rules to death at this point XD

Even as my fingers type and I flip through the RRG, I am sick to death of this subject.

I just have to try and get it as right as I can, ya know?

After all, I'm going to be the guy people call over when they wind up in a game state and don't know how to handle it, locally at least.

I've started thinking they included the 'or touching an obstacle' part of that rule so that you couldn't perform some kind of crazy move right to the edge of dangerous terrain and not overlap (Using Metered March) to cause damage up still touching to force anyone who squares up with you to take damage from overlapping it.

I also think it's designed to prevent lateral engaged charges like the following while still allowing charge to trigger if you touch without overlapping. If a unit had Impact, or any number of rules that trigger on collision causing boons or banes, Leonx and similar units could abuse shift+charge to trigger it.

1 hour ago, Tvayumat said:

I agree it would seem that it should define collision, but if you read it, it really doesn't seem to.

It describes a timing window and a series of conditions, then states that if those conditions are met inside of that window, a collision occurs.

Other rules both describe alternate timing windows and conditions that can cause collision, and describe what Collision actually is and what it does based on the context in which it's occurring. Hell, 55.3 describes what you actually do when you collide in far more specificity than RR-18 does.

You're correct in that RR-18 doesn't mention anything but movement, it seems to cover the edge cases in which a march or shift fails to overlap you but does put you in contact with an obstacle like terrain, or an enemy, and the exception for obstacles you already were touching is there to keep you from colliding with terrain that you are exiting by performing a march or shift.

Again, this seems to be poorly explained and organized.

I think that's both counter intuitive and, IMO, not supported by RAW.

This would mean that units need to move backward and get a running start to enter terrain they're already touching.

I don't know what section 18 you are reading. It is very straight forward. If you perform a move or shift, and you end up touching an obstacle you were not already touching, you collide. There is nothing about timing there.

Just so we are clear:

-Exiting terrain is ending a march or shift touching terrain you were already touching and it IS NOT a Collision.

-Touching terrain and attempting to March through it is ending a march or shift touching terrain you were already touching and it IS a collision?

As far as your entering terrain complaints, you already had an opportunity to enter the terrain when you first collided with it. It's not like the game is preventing you from entering ever. There is no situation where you can end a movement touching terrain and not collide with it, unless you were already touching it before you started your move.

39 minutes ago, rowdyoctopus said:

I don't know what section 18 you are reading. It is very straight forward. If you perform a move or shift, and you end up touching an obstacle you were not already touching, you collide. There is nothing about timing there.

I'm reading the one that starts with " After a unit is [sic] performs a march or shift action"

I'm then looking to RR-83.8 which states "An "After" event occurs immediately after the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event."

I'm also looking at RR-55.3 which states "If a unit would overlap an obstacle while moving, that unit's movement is halted. Then, the unit slides backward along the movement template until it is touching the obstacle, but not overlapping it. The unit collides with that obstacle "

Then, I'm going back to look at RR-83.6 which states "A "while" effect is in effect for the entire duration of the specified event"

Timing is very, very specifically defined with good reason. You wouldn't even check to see if you collided under RR-18 until you finished going through the steps outlined in RR-55, during which you would have already collided.

39 minutes ago, rowdyoctopus said:

Just so we are clear:

-Exiting terrain is ending a march or shift touching terrain you were already touching and it IS NOT a Collision.

-Touching terrain and attempting to March through it is ending a march or shift touching terrain you were already touching and it IS a collision?

Yes. The collision in your second example is triggered by overlapping during movement, not by touching after movement.

39 minutes ago, rowdyoctopus said:

As far as your entering terrain complaints, you already had an opportunity to enter the terrain when you first collided with it. It's not like the game is preventing you from entering ever. There is no situation where you can end a movement touching terrain and not collide with it, unless you were already touching it before you started your move.

Which, by your interpretation, would mean that you have to first shift/march away from that terrain, then shift/move back into it on the following turn before entering it.

If I move up to a forest but for whatever reason choose not to enter that forest, how does it make any sense that I need to move away from it before I can occupy it?

And to answer your question in the context of my current interpretation: You absolutely can execute a march, slide to the end of the template, and touch an obstacle without overlapping it. It's not likely, but it is 100% possible, and as such needs to be addressed. In the case of that obstacle being an enemy unit, RR-18 allows Charge to trigger even if you don't overlap.

Having personally failed charges by distances of 1/8"-1/4", I'd hate to fail a charge because all I managed to do was touch without overlapping.

EDIT: Regarding "Why does RR-18 even exist": It would seem to prevent you from occupying terrain you're touching without executing a march or shift to accomplish it, while still allowing you to occupy terrain you succeeded in touching at the end of a march or shift (But of course weren't touching already) without managing to actually overlap, and allowing you to occupy terrain you began the turn touching, by marching or shifting toward it.

Yeah, certain points here could certainly change with FAQs, but if you try to read section 18 alone then I feel like you'll get it wrong. The biggest argument against moving through terrain is the section of 55.3 that's been quoted several times by myself and others.

5 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

If a unit would overlap an obstacle while moving, that unit's movement is halted. Then, the unit slides backward along the movement template until it is touching the obstacle, but not overlapping it. The unit collides with that obstacle

Just look at the first sentence before you even get into the collision part at the end. The movement is halted.

There's no way to look at that and say, "Well then I clearly get to keep going through the terrain". I get how you could say the collision part at the end doesn't count (though I think you'd be wrong, I mean this let's you enter terrain if you didn't the first time you hit it for example), but regardless of that, the movement still halted.

So basically the collision rules is for collisions that aren't under the exception presented in 55.3. It just so happens that this exception is quite common. I'm confident that if/when a FAQ comes out, this point will be made clear assuming they even touch on movement.