This is a rules question that's come up a few times, but as with many rules questions on this forum, the discussions take place as off-topic conversations in threads scattered around these forums. In an attempt to clean up our playground, I've decided to create a thread dedicated particularly to this question:

"If a unit is in contact with an obstacle at the start of its movement, does the unit ignore the obstacle for that movement?"

One position cites that you do get to ignore it because RR-18 states:

"After a unit performs a march ( ? ) or shift ( ? ) action, if it is touching an obstacle that it was not touching before performing that action, it has collided with that obstacle."

The interpretation is that if you ARE touching that obstacle, then you DO NOT collide, and therefore you are free to move through the obstacle. I, personally, do not agree with this interpretation and will outline a movement scenario illustrated by points from the rules to support my claim.

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We begin with a unit in contact with an obstacle. This unit collided with the obstacle during a previous turn. During the Command phase, the unit's player sets a march action for this unit. We will now skip to this unit's movement in the Activation phase, after its player has revealed the command tool.

RR-47, March : "March is an action. When a unit performs a march ( ? ) action, it moves forward using the straight template corresponding to the action’s speed."

What is speed?

RR-75, Speed: "Speed is a value shown on all march ( ? ) and shift ( ? ) actions that determines which movement template a unit uses to perform the movement."

Now we know how speed matches movement templates, so next step is to figure out how to move.

RR-55.1: "Before moving a unit, a player must determine which movement template to use. The movement template used is dictated by the game effect that is causing the movement."

Okay, a bit of redundancy here, but we want to make sure we have the correct template, and both RR-55 and RR-75 help us decide which template to use and when to select the template. Now, how do we execute it?

RR-55, Movement: "To move a unit, a player places the appropriate movement template so that the start guide on the template is aligned with the tray edge that matches the direction the unit is moving. Then, the player holds the movement template firmly against the play surface and slides the unit along the template until the same tray edge that was aligned with the template’s start guide is aligned with the template’s end guide."

There is a key phrase here and I've italicized it for emphasis: "slides the unit along the template." This is a key distinction from players familiar with X-Wing. In X-Wing, the flight path system abstractly represents three-dimensional space, so you only "contact" other ships when the ships must occupy the same space by virtue of the game being played in two dimensions. In Runewars, the template movement indicates the unit's actual movement in space. This is important to keep in mind for later.

So back to our example, our unit's path is going to cross an obstacle, does anything happen?

RR-55.3: "If a unit would overlap an obstacle while moving, that unit’s movement is halted. Then, the unit slides backward along the movement template until it is touching the obstacle, but not overlapping it. The unit collides with that obstacle."

Okay, well it looks like our unit is going to overlap, but what is an overlap? And at what point do we check for overlap?

RR-60, Overlapping: "When a game component would occupy the same physical space as another game component, those components are overlapping."

RR-83.6: "A “while” effect is in effect for the entire duration of the specified event."

Remember that key about sliding along the template? This means that the unit will overlap the obstacle because they will occupy the same space during the movement. We don't just check the final position. Okay, so if we follow the rules sequentially, we are going to see that we would overlap that obstacle while moving. What do we do? We halt the movement and slide the unit back until it is touching the obstacle but not overlapping. Then the unit collides with the obstacle. What is a collision?

RR-18, Collision: "After a unit performs a march ( ? ) or shift ( ? ) action, if it is touching an obstacle that it was not touching before performing that action, it has collided with that obstacle."

Well our unit is touching the obstacle, but we were touching it before performing the action, so we don't collide, we just halt our movement as stated in 55.3. Phew! It's a relief we don't collide, because that obstacle happened to be Spikes, which are Deadly 3. What does that do?

RR-81.9: "Deadly X: When a unit collides with this terrain, it suffers X damage."

So we would have suffered 3 damage for colliding with it, but since we were already touching it, we do not collide again, so we suffer no damage.

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So to put it succinctly, the part about RR-18 saying you only collide if you weren't already touching is only there to override the last sentence of RR-55.3 which states that after you halt your movement and move backward along the template, you collide. RR-18 does not override the halting of movement or moving backwards along the template.

This was exactly the point I was trying to make in the previous thread on this. You did a better job of explaining though I think.

The only thing I "might" change is I think you suffer deadly twice if you try to run into it again.

RR 55.3 seems to say you always count that as a collision when overlapping but I guess you're saying R18 overrides that? I think I buy that.

The only issue for me at that point is that to occupy terrain you have to have collided with it. (See, the section on terrain sorry don't have RR on me). So if because an event used to occupy it or I just decided to stop without entering the terrain last turn, now I can't enter the terrain because I'm not colliding with it. So you have to have a running start I guess? Lol.

Am I wrong here? Which part an I missing?

P.S. Thanks for breaking this out in a separate topic.

2 minutes ago, Willange said:

The only issue for me at that point is that to occupy terrain you have to have collided with it. (See, the section on terrain sorry don't have RR on me). So if because an event used to occupy it or I just decided to stop without entering the terrain last turn, now I can't enter the terrain because I'm not colliding with it. So you have to have a running start I guess? Lol.

Am I wrong here? Which part an I missing?

That is my interpretation so far. I agree that it is strange and will probably be changed eventually, but that seems like how the rules work as written.

Also to be clear, you could persuade me that that moving through terrain is a thing.

Earlier today I was firmly against it but I do see some new merits I missed previously. For example, why does the manual explicitly state that marches are cancelled by engagement? Well maybe it's so that you can move through enemies because they're just another obstacle. You could counter that, however, and say that the cancellation is just there to be sure charges get cancelled if you, for example, charge your enemy before he charges you. I have mixed feelings on all this :/

March actions are cancelled when revealed by engaged units because, for example, if my unit is facing away from your unit and your unit charges mine and flanks me, I can't just march away. We're engaged, so I need to do a shift action to disengage before I can execute a march action.

EDIT: For those wanting to follow along, we're in 47.2, under March.

1 hour ago, Willange said:

Also to be clear, you could persuade me that that moving through terrain is a thing.

Earlier today I was firmly against it but I do see some new merits I missed previously. For example, why does the manual explicitly state that marches are cancelled by engagement? Well maybe it's so that you can move through enemies because they're just another obstacle. You could counter that, however, and say that the cancellation is just there to be sure charges get cancelled if you, for example, charge your enemy before he charges you. I have mixed feelings on all this :/

Units are counted as obstacles and pretty definitely stop movement.

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RRG, Page 15, rule 59.3

If the unit would overlap no more than a single tray of an allied unit during a move and does not overlap any part of that allied unit at the end of the move , that allied unit is not treated as an obstacle, and does not cause a collision.

This fairly unambiguously indicates that moving through units is not allowed, elsewise there would be no exceptional circumstance allowing you to pass by friendly units only if you would not overlap more than one tray.

It's also worth looking at the rest of the rule

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59. Obstacles

An obstacle is any game object on the play area that units can collide with while moving.

59.1 - Obstacles include: Other units, both enemy and allied , all terrain, the edges and all area outside of the play area (Good to know you can't run off the board by accident)

Your interpretation of the rules is accurate, but the rules don't make sense.

We will use the forest terrain for this example.

I am a six tray unit of rune golems and need to gwt through that forest. Ok I march up and occupy the terrain. Then, next turn leave it on the other side, essentially passing through it.

Now same senario but with a 9 tray unit of spearmen. I can't occupy the forest as there would be spill over, acceptable, so I collide. Next turn, those 12 extra guys, yeah... They are too retarded to walk through the forest behind your other guys. Sorry looks like your stuck here for a couple turns while you rotate and march around this magical wall that has gone up around the forest.

This is immersion breaking and annoying.

Does it make any more sense that a unit can move faster through a swamp by moving up next to it then charging through all at once?

Block formations of infantry might be able to move through tight woods, but not quickly and not while maintaining combat effectiveness.

Regardless, Runewars is a game of maneuver and position, and big units being less maneuverable seems like an intentional component to the balance of the game.

Why even bother having terrain if it doesn't have any impact on how you deploy and approach?

1 hour ago, Tvayumat said:

Units are counted as obstacles and pretty definitely stop movement.

This fairly unambiguously indicates that moving through units is not allowed, elsewise there would be no exceptional circumstance allowing you to pass by friendly units only if you would not overlap more than one tray.

It's also worth looking at the rest of the rule

I understand all the rules you're stating and agree with you.

I was just saying it was interesting that they go out of their way to cancel the action in an engagement when the movement wouldn't have gone through anyway because of the blocking rule. That affects charges but not much else.

And I think the interpretation that you and Budgernaut have presented is probably correct, but it is odd and sort of annoying. Like, the thing about not being able to enter terrain you're already touching that I mentioned earlier. Or, why is my column of spearmen completely unable to move past a rocky outcrop? I get that it's a maneuvering game (I play armada and x-wing so I do appreciate the impact), but would actually make more sense that you'd just stop the first turn and then proceed past it later thematically to represent the time need to re-organize the formation.

However, I do agree that this seems to be the correct interpretation of the rules at least until we get some sort of FAQ. This is the sort of thing that is hard to work out in just the rules (I mean, we referred to like 4 separate sections here at least), and it would be super obvious if FFG just had a video tutorial showing someone getting stuck behind a terrain piece and then being required to reform and march around or whatever. The manual has an example sort of implying that, but that's obviously not definitive.

Thanks everyone for helping parse these rules out!

So my two tray Unit of Cav. could run right through a single tray (such as Kari)?

54 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Does it make any more sense that a unit can move faster through a swamp by moving up next to it then charging through all at once?

Block formations of infantry might be able to move through tight woods, but not quickly and not while maintaining combat effectiveness.

Regardless, Runewars is a game of maneuver and position, and big units being less maneuverable seems like an intentional component to the balance of the game.

Why even bother having terrain if it doesn't have any impact on how you deploy and approach?

How would they move faster? One turn they collide and the next, provided the unit has enough movement to clear the terrain, they move through it. That is a representation of the effects of difficult terrain that doesn't break the game or immersion.

The clearing terrain part is important because terrain will still impact deployment as it would take a 2x2 unit a 4march just to clear the swamp tile.

4 minutes ago, rudedog said:

So my two tray Unit of Cav. could run right through a single tray (such as Kari)?

Yes, solong as they clear her.

The thing about not being able to enter terrain you've already collided with is annoying, and the most likely reason for an actual errata.

5 minutes ago, Orcdruid said:

How would they move faster?

Colliding with and hopping terrain = two actions, and you could charge successfully on the second.

Entering, exiting, and charging from terrain = three actions.

Considering each deployment card uses like three terrain pieces at max, I don't think having one or two areas the largest blocks of infantry can't traverse is too bad.

Even with them blocking completely, the board is almost completely open. Most war games include the concept of blocking terrain in much larger quantities on the same size board.

All of this is moot anyway, because the l2p explicitly encourages you to make up your own terrain. Rules like this are for tournament balance, not immersion. You can and should play with whatever terrain you want.

@Tvayumat I see what you mean about speed. As far as terrain impeding movement we will have to wait until someone throws out a deathstar or two of reanimates and tries to navigate between a forest and a swamp.(more on this after I read the terrain placement rules again)

3 minutes ago, Orcdruid said:

@Tvayumat ...we will have to wait until someone throws out a deathstar or two of reanimates...

Working on it.

1 minute ago, Tvayumat said:

Working on it.

I rescind my argument. After looking at the setup diagram on page 5 of the rules reference, which shows a max unit of reanimates and all three terrain pieces, I can see that it would be easy enough to move around the terrain even if it was placed at minimum distance and in the center of the board. The edge of the board is a different story though.

3 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

Colliding with and hopping terrain = two actions, and you could charge successfully on the second.

Entering, exiting, and charging from terrain = three actions.

Considering each deployment card uses like three terrain pieces at max, I don't think having one or two areas the largest blocks of infantry can't traverse is too bad.

Even with them blocking completely, the board is almost completely open. Most war games include the concept of blocking terrain in much larger quantities on the same size board.

All of this is moot anyway, because the l2p explicitly encourages you to make up your own terrain. Rules like this are for tournament balance, not immersion. You can and should play with whatever terrain you want.

Except that there is no rule stating that if you collide with terrain you Must occupy if you can. So the idea that a smaller unit is slow in the given example is not correct, as it could just as easily choose not to occupy and march through the same way as the large unit. Both can do it in 2 actions, if this is possible at all.

10 hours ago, Orcdruid said:

After looking at the setup diagram on page 5 of the rules reference, which shows a max unit of reanimates and all three terrain pieces, I can see that it would be easy enough to move around the terrain even if it was placed at minimum distance and in the center of the board. The edge of the board is a different story though.

I liked the fact that units weren't lost by hitting the edges, but you just know there will be times large units hit the edges (due to morale tests), get caught between terrain, and their owner wishes for death as his big-ass unit flounders for a couple rounds.

Your units are on the ground. They never leave the ground. The only time they leave the ground is when going over a single tray of an allied unit, or reforming when terrain is in the way. At all other times while moving, your unit is sliding along the ground and must stop if it hits something.

You only collide once with terrain, but you cannot move through it. You can either enter it when you collide, or start doing some combination of shifting, reforming, and then a new march. Sure, it bogs a unit down for a round or two, but that unit is not able to maintain defensive formation while traversing the terrain, so it goes around lest it be trampled by the enemy.

@Taki @Tvayumat I think we may be getting this a bit muddied. Let me try to distill this down and see if I can clarify for others:

Terrain counts as an obstacle that stops any movement action when you would collide with it (per the rules quoted back in the OP). After colliding, a unit may choose to occupy that Terrain (81.1) as long as the capacity of the terrain is less than the current unit size, and if it does not already have a unit occupying the terrain. In 81.2, the rules specify that after a player has chosen for a unit to occupy a Terrain it has collided with, and resolved all effects from doing so, all remaining bonus actions or other game effects (like surge actions) of that unit are cancelled (note that with rule 15.2, this does not cancel modifiers).

So my unit of Oathsworn cavalry (2 trays) has a command dial with the March 4 + March 2. I reveal my dial, and begin my March 4, using the rules from OP. When I collide with a Forest, I follow the rules in OP, and my movement stops when I collide. I now choose to occupy the terrain, and remove my trays and place a cavalry on the terrain to indicate it is occupied (per optional occupy indicator rule in 81). My remaining March 2 action is cancelled, and it has no effect. My cavalry must end the turn inside the terrain.

My Spearman have a command dial with March 3 + Defense (+1). When they collide with and occupy another piece of terrain, they lose the rest of their movement by their modifier of +1 defense is not cancelled, increasing their defense for the remainder of the round.

The next round, my Cavalry chooses a March 4 + Charge. When it is their turn, they reveal their dial. Because they have selected March, they will exit the terrain as per 81.4 (and 81.4.i for March specifically), so they must be placed with their back edge touching the terrain, and so that they are not touching or overlapping the terrain itself OR ANY OTHER OBSTACLE (81.4.iv). The unit does not actually move away from touching the terrain. All the March action does is determine how the unit may be placed when it exits the terrain. I could have used March 2 and achieved the same result. I wanted to place my spearmen so that I could be touching a Reanimate unit close to the forest terrain and get the effect of the Charge modifier. But alas, 81.4.iv states I can't touch any other obstacle, meaning that my Charge modifier is worthless since I can't actually get in base to base.

My Spearman have chosen a Shift 1 + Special. They move out of the side of their terrain, placing their side in contact to get a good firing arc on the Reanimates. They use the Special action to activate their Fire Rune, blasting the poor undead minions.

Last reference: My Leonx Riders are occupying a piece of terrain, and choose the March 2 + March 2 option. My first movement exits the terrain. My second movement moves me away from that position using the 2 Movement template. If the Latari have a Music upgrade like Aggressive Cornicen/Drums, they could add the charge modifier to this movement, allowing them to charge with the bonus action from occupying terrain at the start of the turn (if they have such an upgrade).

1 hour ago, drkpnthr said:

Terrain counts as an obstacle that stops any movement action when you would collide with it

Important distinction: It stops movement when you overlap while moving . After movement is concluded, you collide (or more accurately check for collision).

As far as examples go, I'd like to point out that by using the more permissive interpretation of movement, the following would be possible.

Two friendly units are moving toward a forest one behind the other. The first Marches forward, overlaps, collides, and occupies the terrain. The second Marches forward, overlaps, and collides, remaining outside of the forest because it is occupied.

Next turn, the second unit, which is not occupying the terrain, Marches forward, jumping over their own unit and the forest.

This interpretation would utterly invalidate the meaning of 59.3, and it's quite clear that the same rule interpretation which would allow the arguably "more realistic" ability to march around a rock would also allow a unit to violate the basic laws of physical reality by phasing like Barry Allen through both a forest and their own allies.

For the record, I strongly suspect that when Wraiths become a thing, they'll be able to do exactly that.

So are we in agreement, movement stops but you don't collide if you were already touching the terrain.

4 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

So are we in agreement, movement stops but you don't collide if you were already touching the terrain.

I realize that's what I've been saying this entire time, but you got me really reading and laying these rules out, and I think it's worth pointing out that the last sentence in 55.3 reads "The unit collides with that obstacle"

Under 18 it reads " After a unit is [sic] performs a march or shift action , if it is touching an obstacle that it was not touching before performing that action, it has collided with that obstacle" it quite notably does not say "If you would collide with an obstacle you were touching before performing your action, you do not collide" It says absolutely nothing about overlapping, it specifically says touching .

You're touching an obstacle, you attempt to march/shift into it, you overlap, you collide. After completing your movement , you check to see if you're touching an obstacle you weren't previously touching, you aren't, so you don't collide based on that rule, but you already collided when you overlapped during movement, so this has no effect. It doesn't "un-collide" you, because the trigger for your collision was never touching an obstacle.

So, when you overlap, you collide. Also, if you just touch without overlapping, you collide, per rule 18.This isn't likely to happen much, but on that one perfect maneuver when the dust settles and your plastic just barely touched cardboard, you technically collided even if you never overlapped. (OR more realistically, when you exit terrain and don't move afterward)

What Rule 18 actually seems to say, is that if you start your action touching an obstacle, but make no attempt to move during your action, you don't collide a second time. The good news for this interpretation is that you can actually enter a piece of terrain you started the round in contact with, so long as you move to overlap. You could NOT simply remain still and enter a piece of terrain you were touching, because without movement, you wouldn't collide again.

The more I think about this sequence, the more sense it makes to me, but it could be so much more clearly illustrated in the RRG. This means you can't hop over terrain, you CAN enter terrain you previously collided with, you don't take collision damage from keywords if you don't move, but you DO take damage from keywords if you try to march into the same obstacle twice. It seems like the cleanest possible interpretation that allows RAW to be true in all cases without need for errata, but in desperate need of explanation. Rule 18 is a red herring meant to cover units touching terrain that stand their ground.

I'm bothered, though, by the erroneous word in the rule. It makes me think the precise wording got passed over during QC.

EDIT:

I'm even more convinced as I read 60.1 "When a unit would overlap an obstacle as part of a march or shift action, it resolves a collision" and 18 continues to mention nothing about overlapping, just touching.

EDIT 2: Removed confusing reference to Armada/X-Wing.

1 hour ago, Tvayumat said:

You're touching an obstacle, you attempt to march/shift into it, you overlap, you collide. After completing your movement , you check to see if you're touching an obstacle you weren't previously touching, you aren't, so you don't collide based on that rule, but you already collided when you overlapped during movement, so this has no effect. It doesn't "un-collide" you, because the trigger for your collision was never touching an obstacle.

It's taking me a while to wrap my head around this. It's an intriguing line of thought. I'm not sure I'm convinced, but I can see your reasoning.

1 hour ago, Tvayumat said:

So, when you overlap, you collide. Also, if you just touch without overlapping, you collide, per rule 18.This isn't likely to happen much, but on that one perfect maneuver when the dust settles and your plastic just barely touched cardboard, you technically collided even if you never overlapped. X-Wing and Armada players both should be familiar with this phenomenon.

In X-Wing, two ships' bases can be in physical contact with one another without "touching." "Touching" only occurs as the result of an overlap. But in that game, "touching" is clearly defined in the rules.

1 hour ago, Tvayumat said:

What Rule 18 actually seems to say, is that if you start your action touching an obstacle, but make no attempt to move during your action, you don't collide a second time.

Is this relevant? RR-18 describes what a collision is and part of that definition is executing a march or shift action. If you made no attempt to move, nothing in the rules would have told you to collide anyway, so there is no reason to state that collisions don't occur if you are touching an obstacle you were already touching.

1 hour ago, Tvayumat said:

The more I think about this sequence, the more sense it makes to me, but it could be so much more clearly illustrated in the RRG. This means you can't hop over terrain, you CAN enter terrain you previously collided with, you don't take collision damage from keywords if you don't move, but you DO take damage from keywords if you try to march into the same obstacle twice. It seems like the cleanest possible interpretation that allows RAW to be true in all cases without need for errata, but in desperate need of explanation. Rule 18 is a red herring meant to cover units touching terrain that stand their ground.

I like that terrain works under your interpretation, but what I don't like is that the definition for Collision now doesn't seem to make sense. I can't see any need for the phrase, "if it is touching an obstacle that it was not touching before performing that action."

I was trying to simplify the whole discussion so that a rule of thumb can be created.

42 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

I was trying to simplify the whole discussion so that a rule of thumb can be created.

If that's the goal, my interpretation can be simplified to:

Overlapping or touching terrain after moving = Collision
Touching terrain without moving = No Collision

Simple.

1 hour ago, Budgernaut said:

Is this relevant? RR-18 describes what a collision is and part of that definition is executing a march or shift action. If you made no attempt to move, nothing in the rules would have told you to collide anyway, so there is no reason to state that collisions don't occur if you are touching an obstacle you were already touching.

But RR-18 isn't really describing what a collision is so much as defining when it occurs. It's a bizarrely written rule, honestly. It describes a game state complete with timing and states that if these conditions are met, a unit has collided. Other rules define what collision actually means contextually, for instance suffering damage, banes or boons. Similarly, other rules add conditions other than the basic condition that also cause a unit to collide, most notably among these under RR-60.1 and RR-55.3. There are even exceptional circumstances defining when a collision does not occur under RR-59.3.

They're spaced out strangely, but when all put together, a complete picture starts to emerge. And this is the only picture in which I can see a unit being able to enter terrain that it started the turn touching.

I agree that RR-18 seems both superfluous and strange, and really, it's the rule that all this disagreement started over. Everything else seems to indicate one thing, and 18 comes in waggling confusing nomenclature, muddying the waters.

Quote

In X-Wing, two ships' bases can be in physical contact with one another without "touching." "Touching" only occurs as the result of an overlap. But in that game, "touching" is clearly defined in the rules.

Touching, in this game, may occur for reasons other than an overlap. Exiting terrain and squaring up both result in touching without overlap.


EDIT: I'd just like to note that these nuances/nits are probably not very useful or interesting for most casual gamers. The vast majority of people who play will unknowingly fudge a detail here or there depending on what makes sense to them and how they read the rules. This discussion, for me, is mostly for the purpose of tournament play. I love organized competitive play, and we all need to be on the same page for games like that.