33 minutes ago, Taki said:

the point of question comes from the section on collision where it mentions terrain you didn't start the turn in contact with. That creates the question, it's not cut and dry.

55.3 "If a unit would overlap an obstacle while moving, that unit’s movement is halted. Then, the unit slides backward along the movement template until it is touching the obstacle, but not overlapping it. The unit collides with that obstacle."

If you start next to an obstacle, then as you move forward, there will be many points at which you overlap the obstacle, so the movement is halted.

The part you are referencing is 18 here:
"After a unit performs a march (?) or shift (?) action, if it is touching an obstacle that it was not touching before performing that action, it has collided with that obstacle."
The only time this really comes into play is when you shift to re-position while engaged to an enemy. That makes it so you don't collide and therefore don't take another panic token.

So it appears that collision and overlap are different here. Certain affects occur on collision. You can receive panic tokens (if you didn't charge) upon collision with an enemy. According to 88.1:

"If a piece of terrain has a capacity value, a unit can choose to enter and occupy a piece of that terrain when that unit collides with it."

So you can enter terrain upon collision though apparently not if you were already touching it. That bit does seem a bit silly and I doubt that they intend it that way (because otherwise you wouldn't be able to enter terrain after destroying the enemy unit that occupied it since you touched it before). I'm sure the spirit of this is that you can enter it when you move and the other requirements are met.

I may be slightly wrong on some things here (I'm not aware of anything though), but in general it seems clear to me that you can't pass through terrain.

EDIT: See I read so many things I confused myself. As you see in 55.3 it says at the end that the unit collides with that obstacle so it is a new collision and you do have a new chance to enter the terrain. Reposition wouldn't fall under this though so you obviously still don't take the panic token.
So yeah, TL;DR you definitely don't pass through the terrain unfettered. You collide again and have a new chance to occupy.

Just now, Willange said:

55.3 "If a unit would overlap an obstacle while moving, that unit’s movement is halted. Then, the unit slides backward along the movement template until it is touching the obstacle, but not overlapping it. The unit collides with that obstacle."

If you start next to an obstacle, then as you move forward, there will be many points at which you overlap the obstacle, so the movement is halted.

The part you are referencing is 18 here:
"After a unit performs a march (?) or shift (?) action, if it is touching an obstacle that it was not touching before performing that action, it has collided with that obstacle."
The only time this really comes into play is when you shift to re-position while engaged to an enemy. That makes it so you don't collide and therefore don't take another panic token.

So it appears that collision and overlap are different here. Certain affects occur on collision. You can receive panic tokens (if you didn't charge) upon collision with an enemy. According to 88.1:

"If a piece of terrain has a capacity value, a unit can choose to enter and occupy a piece of that terrain when that unit collides with it."

So you can enter terrain upon collision though apparently not if you were already touching it. That bit does seem a bit silly and I doubt that they intend it that way (because otherwise you wouldn't be able to enter terrain after destroying the enemy unit that occupied it since you touched it before). I'm sure the spirit of this is that you can enter it when you move and the other requirements are met.

I may be slightly wrong on some things here (I'm not aware of anything though), but in general it seems clear to me that you can't pass through terrain.

And yet section 18

"After a unit performs a march (?) or shift (?) action, if it is touching an obstacle that it was not touching before performing that action, it has collided with that obstacle"

If you hit an obstacle you halt, touching it but not overlapping. In collision it doesn't care about overlap, it only cares about whether or not you were touching it before doing the march. And you can clearly be touching that terrain from the last turn. So no, it's not cut and dry, as section 18 implies you ignore terrain you start in contact with.

24 minutes ago, Taki said:

And yet section 18

"After a unit performs a march (?) or shift (?) action, if it is touching an obstacle that it was not touching before performing that action, it has collided with that obstacle"

If you hit an obstacle you halt, touching it but not overlapping. In collision it doesn't care about overlap, it only cares about whether or not you were touching it before doing the march. And you can clearly be touching that terrain from the last turn. So no, it's not cut and dry, as section 18 implies you ignore terrain you start in contact with.

After examination, it's pretty well covered. You have to follow the actual sequence of events, rather than getting hung up on that one little collision rule.

Collision is irrelevant. No you can't collide with something twice, but collision has zero impact on movement, and basic movement rules stipulate that you cannot move over terrain, because you overlap and then return to your original position.

At that point, you check for collision, and since you were already contacting the terrain, you don't collide and thus don't suffer the negative effects of colliding with dangerous terrain. You also don't move.

The important detail is that collision is explicitly checked for after movement has completed, and movement stops you if you overlap at any point , it is in no way triggered by collision.

The only inconsistency across these rules is that you must collide to enter terrain, but that's right in line with a handful of other oversights in phrasing we have emails in to clarify at the moment.

8 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

It really is well covered by the rules as-is.

Collision is irrelevant. No you can't collide with something twice, but collision has zero impact on movement, and basic movement rules stipulate that you cannot move over terrain, because you overlap and then return to your original position.

At that point, you check for collision, and since you were already contacting the terrain, you don't collide and thus don't suffer the negative effects of colliding with dangerous terrain. You also don't move.

The important detail is that collision is explicitly checked for after movement has completed, and movement stops you if you overlap at any point , it is in no way triggered by collision.

The only inconsistency across these rules is that you must collide to enter terrain, but that's right in line with a handful of other oversights in phrasing we have emails in to clarify at the moment.

Like Armada! In Armada if you overlap a ship and an Asteroid but when you bounce back and are not on the Asteroid you only suffer the Ship Overlap

13 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

After examination, it's pretty well covered. You have to follow the actual sequence of events, rather than getting hung up on that one little collision rule.

Collision is irrelevant. No you can't collide with something twice, but collision has zero impact on movement, and basic movement rules stipulate that you cannot move over terrain, because you overlap and then return to your original position.

At that point, you check for collision, and since you were already contacting the terrain, you don't collide and thus don't suffer the negative effects of colliding with dangerous terrain. You also don't move.

The important detail is that collision is explicitly checked for after movement has completed, and movement stops you if you overlap at any point , it is in no way triggered by collision.

The only inconsistency across these rules is that you must collide to enter terrain, but that's right in line with a handful of other oversights in phrasing we have emails in to clarify at the moment.

I dont' actually agree, and it doesn't actually make sense. I was a soldier and some of my platoon was pretty stupid but they could maneuver around a rock. And the single line that you're ignoring pretty crucial as it is implicit in its statement of ignoring any terrain you start in contact with. If your interpretation was correct, that line wouldn't be there. But I'll sit here and wait til they actually answer rather than debating it any further. Either way, they should have had the foresight to answer this in the rules more clearly than they have.

7 minutes ago, Taki said:

I dont' actually agree, and it doesn't actually make sense. I was a soldier and some of my platoon was pretty stupid but they could maneuver around a rock. And the single line that you're ignoring pretty crucial as it is implicit in its statement of ignoring any terrain you start in contact with. If your interpretation was correct, that line wouldn't be there. But I'll sit here and wait til they actually answer rather than debating it any further. Either way, they should have had the foresight to answer this in the rules more clearly than they have.

It really IS answered clearly, and that rule you mention exists pretty obviously to prevent you from suffering additional damage from running into deadly terrain multiple times, and make sure you collide with terrain even if all you do is make contact without overlapping.

What units of real soldiers do in modern combat is wholly irrelevant to the discussion of how block unit mechanics in Runewars interact with terrain tokens.

If you follow the sequence of events as outlined in the RRG, you cannot bunnyhop ANY obstacles, barring one single tray of friendly units.

You can't even jump over a full formation of your own troops.

This, again is clearly outlined in the movement rules.

I look forward to the email putting this one to bed for you.

Just now, Tvayumat said:

It really IS answered clearly, and that rule you mention exists specifically to prevent you from suffering additional damage from running into deadly terrain multiple times.

What units of real soldiers do in modern combat is wholly irrelevant to the discussion of how block unit mechanics in Runewars interact with terrain tokens.

If you follow the sequence of events as outlined in the FFG, you cannot bunnyhop ANY obstacles, barring one single tray of friendly units.

You can't even jump over a full formation of your own troops.

This, again is clearly outlined in the movement rules.

I look forward to the email putting this one to bed for you.

Seriously, the game mechanics not having any relation to real world physics is a weak argument. One of the terrain piece in this game is a rock. It cannot be occupied, yet it can hold up a giant formation of men who can't simply go around it. It's both stupid and breaks verisimilitude, but whatever you might be right. Certainly it is the simpler answer, and the dumber one as well (but whatever, this is Baby's First Mini's Game).

I hope you're right and they put this to rest for me and quickly, as it's both stupid and annoying. But I'll tell you what, if you drop it, so will I.

So when rules don't agree with what you *think* should happen, it's clearly that the game is far too simple and childish for your erudite and learned tastes.

Okay, bud. Sure.

4 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

So when rules don't agree with what you *think* should happen, it's clearly that the game is far too simple and childish for your erudite and learned tastes.

Okay, bud. Sure.

Totes.

Maybe you haven't been listening to me, between the insults, but all I've asked for is clarity. All I want is an email, telling me one way or another. Further, this thread is The appropriate place to complain about stupid rules, it's the point of the thread. Yes I have complaints about the game, but what the hell does that give you leave to be insulting to me? I really don't think it's appropriate or warranted, as I haven't insulted you, just the rules choices and aesthetics. Do you have some reason to be an ass towards me?

9 minutes ago, Taki said:

Totes.

Maybe you haven't been listening to me, between the insults, but all I've asked for is clarity. All I want is an email, telling me one way or another. Further, this thread is The appropriate place to complain about stupid rules, it's the point of the thread. Yes I have complaints about the game, but what the hell does that give you leave to be insulting to me? I really don't think it's appropriate or warranted, as I haven't insulted you, just the rules choices and aesthetics. Do you have some reason to be an ass towards me?

Nah, man.

Don't mind me, I'm just confused, because the idiotic rules of baby's first war game hurt my head so much.

Just now, Tvayumat said:

Nah, man.

Don't mind me, I'm just confused, because the idiotic rules of baby's first war game hurt my head so much.

It shows.

Tvayumat, you are stealing my job!

Just now, Lyraeus said:

Tvayumat, you are stealing my job!

I learned from the best.

So, I don't know if this has been addressed already or not but I have a question about movement and terrain:

If a unit starts its movement touching a piece of terrain do to colliding with it in the prior turn..........just kidding! ?

Demo team members are allowed to answer rules questions on the forums, however, you really have to take anything we post with a grain of salt because:

A: not all demo team members learn the games from the designers, sometimes it's learned 2nd or even 3rd hand.

B: sometimes the rules change from one demo opportunity to the next.

That being said, I always demoed Karl's ability as not needing line of sight, but that is in no way an official ruling.

40 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

I learned from the best.

9000 posts, I better be **** good at it.

11 hours ago, TallTonyB said:

Demo team members are allowed to answer rules questions on the forums, however, you really have to take anything we post with a grain of salt because:

A: not all demo team members learn the games from the designers, sometimes it's learned 2nd or even 3rd hand.

B: sometimes the rules change from one demo opportunity to the next.

That being said, I always demoed Karl's ability as not needing line of sight, but that is in no way an official ruling.

To piggy back on this, demo team members are just players from the community like any of you. Sure, some of them might be play testers, but they are not FFG employees and typically they have no insider knowledge outside of what actual FFG employees share with them.

My experience with learning their games for demoing, even brand new ones that are not out, involves being given a digital copy of the rules and teaching myself. Heck I was demoing Destiny off of the Learn to Play type pamphlet found in the starters. I didn't see the Rules Reference until it was publicly posted for everyone.

Long story short, the demo team members have knowledge from the same documents you do.

12 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

9000 posts, I better be **** good at it.

YOU'RE POSTS ARE OVER 9000!!!!!

15 minutes ago, jek said:

YOU'RE POSTS ARE OVER 9000!!!!!

Most of them are arguing over on the Armada page... Actually a good 9200 to 9400 are...