Hello, first time posting here.

I have a question about opposed checks when using Force powers. Would it be appropriate to call for a check if a Force power which normally wouldn't require a check is used against a PC or a Nemesis? For example, the Control upgrade in the Sense tree allows the user to commit a Force die to upgrade the difficulty of an incoming attack. Normally, this wouldn't require a roll at all, but if the incoming attack is from a PC or Nemesis, should I call for an opposed Discipline check to see if the power activates?

Per the RAW, yes, having an opposed check when the power is used against a PC, or Rival/Nemesis is considered the appropriate time to do so.

Now, the example you gave, of having an opposed check when trying to commit a Force die seems a bit unfair. The power itself, in your specific example (Sense), isn't something the other person could "turn off" (unless they were using that Force power that lets them try and do just that). So I wouldn't require a roll to commit the Force Die. That specific use is a passive effect, not really something to do with the other person. Basically, the reason the upgrade is happening, is because the player is amping up their own abilities, making it harder to hit them. They're not doing something to befuddle the attacker, thus making it harder to hit them. So in that very specific example, no I wouldn't require an opposed check.

That Control Upgrade does not target the Nemesis/enemy, so no, they don't get a check to "resist" it.

If the committed Power targets the enemy - targets them - i.e. directly effects them - only then might they get a chance to resist.

Cant think of any examples of this off the top of my head though, unless you're like using the alternate rule to sustain a Move or something.

Even then I think the initial check might be all I'd call for as GM, barring the situation changing somehow.

2 minutes ago, emsquared said:

That Control Upgrade does not target the Nemesis/enemy, so no, they don't get a check to "resist" it.

Frankly can't fathom where KFF is coming from here.

Some really perplexing opinions coming out of the community these days.

Seeing as I said no they wouldn't use it in that example, I'm perplexed by your perplexion. I said that an opposed check from an NPC Rival/Nemesis or PC is when you would allow it, even if the power doesn't.....and then I went into pretty specific explanation as to why the example given isn't when I would allow it.

21 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Seeing as I said no they wouldn't use it in that example, I'm perplexed by your perplexion. I said that an opposed check from an NPC Rival/Nemesis or PC is when you would allow it, even if the power doesn't.....and then I went into pretty specific explanation as to why the example given isn't when I would allow it.

Yea, finished reading your post and edited mine.

Appy-poly-logies

In my defense, you seemed to be hemming and hawing about it "well seems a bit unfair...", then I flew into nerd rage, cuz the answer is straight; no, in that specific case.

23 minutes ago, emsquared said:

Yea, finished reading your post and edited mine.

Appy-poly-logies

In my defense, you seemed to be hemming and hawing about it "well seems a bit unfair...", then I flew into nerd rage, cuz the answer is straight; no, in that specific case.

Well, I did redo my post, after re-reading the original question and example. I skimmed it, and had to delete several sentences and re-word it when I noticed the example specifically given. I thought I had cleaned it up sufficiently, apparently not

When I said it was unfair, I was trying to state, that given the power in no way directly effects the other party (other than by the mechanics, not in-universe effect), it would be unfair to allow the other party an opportunity to prevent me from using my power. Assuming the end result would be that the effect never happened, and the dice was no longer committed for the ongoing effect. THAT, I feel, is unfair, per the example as written. Shutting off a Force power simply by winning a resistance check is unfair. Now if they are using that Force power specifically designed to do exactly that (I forget the name of it, but it's in the...Guardian book I think? Meh, I'm terrible with details like sources), that's another situation.

A person with the force power suppress and its mastery upgrade can force someone to uncommit their dice, this is the closest you are going to get.

The opposed check rule is only invoked when the force power specifically targets an enemy and has no other difficulty as per the rules. Sense isn't used on a target, it's you sensing incoming attacks and therefore being somewhat more difficult to hit.

2 hours ago, Aetrion said:

The opposed check rule is only invoked when the force power specifically targets an enemy and has no other difficulty as per the rules. Sense isn't used on a target, it's you sensing incoming attacks and therefore being somewhat more difficult to hit.

Well, my confusion arose because in a way, Sense is used on a target; you can only apply this difficulty upgrade to one target (unless you get another upgrade), so the character with Sense is (if I understand the power correctly) reading the opponent's mind to know when they will attack. This contrasts with Foresee, which has an upgrade that gives the user increased defense (because the user is seeing the future, which doesn't require getting into a specific enemy's head).

I don't have the wording in my head but IIRC the power triggers against an attack, not a person. So there's no one to roll against.

12 hours ago, ModestMousorgsky said:

Well, my confusion arose because in a way, Sense is used on a target; you can only apply this difficulty upgrade to one target (unless you get another upgrade), so the character with Sense is (if I understand the power correctly) reading the opponent's mind to know when they will attack. This contrasts with Foresee, which has an upgrade that gives the user increased defense (because the user is seeing the future, which doesn't require getting into a specific enemy's head).

There are Talents that do the same thing (Upgrade an attackers Diff), that are ranked (can Upgrade well more than once), and require no FR die committed. As a tradeoff the Power doesn't take Strain. There is no need to nerf this Power. It is well balanced.

What are you uncomfortable with here?

With Sense you're anticipating their moves through the Force, not getting into their head.

12 hours ago, ModestMousorgsky said:

Well, my confusion arose because in a way, Sense is used on a target; you can only apply this difficulty upgrade to one target (unless you get another upgrade), so the character with Sense is (if I understand the power correctly) reading the opponent's mind to know when they will attack. This contrasts with Foresee, which has an upgrade that gives the user increased defense (because the user is seeing the future, which doesn't require getting into a specific enemy's head).

If you are going to use the analogy of "reading the target's mind", then I think Sense is more like "opening up your ears to the words his brain is saying." A lot of stories about telepaths, talk about the "background chatter" that most people have as their thoughts. It's an unshielded susurrus, similar to the sounds of being in a crowd of people. An indistinct background noise, that is very noticeable, but also muddled. Sense would be (in my interpretation of it, based on your comparison), the act of that person actually focusing on a single conversation in that background chatter. Something anyone can easily do. It's not "using the power on them", and is more like "paying attention to their sounds in the background." So it's still not being used ON the target to get the dice penalty. They are just really LOUD in the psychic sense, and that particular upgrade of Sense let's you take advantage of them broadcasting their attacks.

There is precedent for this in real life, as we are developing devices that are quite capable of reading your thoughts, and determining your actions, based on your brains thought process. So this is just the mystic equivalent of that, in my mind.

In-game example is the guy is charging at your, mentally thinking about his plan. But to you, with your Third Eye open and listening, it's as if he's screaming "I'm gonna jump off that couch, leap across the room, and cut him in the face!" You, having heard this, can go "Oh, so he's doing that, right, I'll just make sure to not be there, and in fact be in a place to take advantage of that."

It's like an instinct, like a spider sense. Or at least that's how it's described in the Legends books. No reading thoughts.

Combined aspects of seeing the future - though not - and very fast reflexes, if you really want to dissect it.

But the mechanics just don't warrant any of it. It's not a problem Power.