The scenario: 1 attacking Elf pegasus is battling 1 defending Uthuk berserker. Both have the same initiative and both draw an orb. The rules state "starting with the attacker, each player resolves his units' special abilities". So, the attacking Elf pegasus routes the Berserker. The defending player then resolves his orb for the berserker. The special power is "sacrifice one standing Berserker to inflict 2 damage". However, the Uthuk player has no standing berserkers because the attacking elf pegasus got to inflict his rout ability first.

Is this the correct interpretation? Is the Uthuk player just out of luck due to the sequencing of attacker first even though the both units have the same initiative and drew fate cards at the same time?

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_faq.asp

broken said:

1: he is looking for gamer support....

2: i would say yeah...there was not enough guys to kill off. Simple really you did it perfectly

the uthuk ability is used but its condition (standing units) is not verified so your interpretation of situation for me is correct.

Hey ckessel, I am afraid you are not correct in your interpretation.

The Berserkers special ability is resolved, the pegasus wins the battle.

"Concurrent Attack Rule
It is possible for units to be destroyed or routed during battle before
they are able to draw Fate cards. However, if Fate cards have already
been drawn for a unit type, then all of the cards will be resolved
regardless of whether those units are later destroyed or routed." (page 22)

As explained on page 22 of the rulebook, battle step

"3. Resolve Special Abilities:" is resolved COMPLETELY before battle step

"4. Resolve Routs:" This leads to only one conclusion:

Since special abilities are resolved before the routs, the uthuk berserker is sacrificed, dealing 2

damage to the pegasus rider. Then, step 4 begins, and the Elf player resolves his rout. Since no enemies

remain (the Berserker has already been sacrficed), the rout damage is not assigned, and the Pegasus will win the battle,

surviving with 1 h.it point

Chancellor of Sol said:

I would agree that the berserker would get to sacrifice prior to being routed. That being said, the Uthuk player would still need to rout a unit before the battle is over, if he had any units left. In other words, you can't rout the unit that you sacrifice.

Uh oh, sorry, I totally forgot about the Pegasus' special ability and only considered "Routing damage" on the fate cards.

Well, in the case of a Pegasus drawing an orb fate card, I agree that the berserker is routed before he can sacrifice himself.

Since page 22 reads:

"Concurrent Attack Rule
It is possible for units to be destroyed or routed during battle before
they are able to draw Fate cards. However, if Fate cards have already
been drawn for a unit type, then all of the cards will be resolved
regardless of whether those units are later destroyed or routed."

The Berserker is not routed later , but before his fate cards are resolved. So in this case, there are no standing Berserkers left.

Whatsoever, if the Pegasus Rider drew not an orb (special ability) Fate Card, but a Fate Card with routing damage, the Berserker

would be able to use his sacrifice special ability.

First off:

- IMO, the OP is correct: the Berserker cannot use his ability, because he's already routed at that point. But...

- a little more clarification would be useful

Secondly: in this specific case, the Uthuk player wouldn't want to resolve the Berserker's ability anyway, because it won't kill the Pegasus Rider. So it's a bit of a moot point.

I think the intent is that attacks happen simultaneously, including special abilities (it is only worded differently because there are different types of special abilities, and the wording for routs/damage wouldn't work). An example involving something else: say the pegasus rider drew a rout icon, and the berserker drew a damage icon. The rules are pretty clear that they would both resolve fully, even though the routing damage is applied before the damage, and routed units can't attack. I think the important thing to take away from that is that all that matters is whether or not the unit was damaged/routed at the time it drew the card, not at the time of ability resolution. I think the drawing of the cards represents the simultaneous attacks, and then any effect resolution happens based on the state of the units at the time the cards were drawn.

This is by no means definitive, but neither is any other argument. This is why I recommended that this be submitted as an official rules question, not just a forum thread.

The game tries to give a boost to attackers - which are at a disadvantage in a lot of (other) games ... like TI3 for instance

So, the attacker gets to resolve his results first.

In this case the Berserker is Routed before he can use his ability.

What's the problem with that ?

You want to use the Berserkers' Special Ability ?

Fine, you should have left more defenders then.

I don't understand what, besides the word "special", makes the special abilities so special in this regard? If the berserker had drawn a damage icon, he would still have resolved the damage as normal, even though he was routed by the pegasus rider's special ability, and routed units can't attack. That must mean (unless you can tell me it means something else) that the drawing of the cards represents the time of the concurrent attack. The only reason, in my mind, that the wording for special abilities is different than that of routing/damage is that special abilities vary and it takes slightly different wording to achieve the same effect. Obviously you can't rout one unit or take one damage per ORB the enemy drew, so it has to be somewhat different. I don't, however, think the intent was supposed to be different. But, again, this argument is pointless because we can't come to a definitive answer.

broken said:

You're right but It's just a game mechanic, it's not exact science.

The Berserkers' Orb ability would resolve as well, even if he was routed, ... if there was another standing berserker in the area.

What we are discussing here is one very situational ... eh ... situation which may not come up at all in the first 100 games you play ...

I find this thread a little pointless. The thing to remember is that the question here is only valid if one pegasus is attacking one berserker. Any way you resolve the situation, the elf player wins and the pegasus is restored to full health after the battle. the only difference is that the Uthuk player can choose to destroy his berserker or not. A meaningless gesture seeing as how if he keeps the unit alive it only remains routed instead of being destroyed. If I am missing something please point it out otherwise I think that it wouldn't matter what the Uthuk player chose to do.

jamesbean said:

As stated, it would be pointless, but if it were 2 pegasus riders vs. 2 berserkers and all 4 drew orbs, then it would matter. So the point is valid.

Jamesbean, this thread is not in the least pointless. It is about a fundamental component of the game mechanics.

And this does not only affect the, I grant, unlikely example but may affect many battles.

Just exchange the Pegasus Rider with a Daqan Knight who likewise has an initiative rating of 2, and there you have it.

The Knight would indeed be killed by the Berserker's Sacrifice ability.

Another, even more likely example: A squad of Latari Archers attacks a squad of Flesh Rippers. Both squads draw only orbs (ok, unlikely). If the

attacker's Fate Cards are resolved first, the Archers may kill each Flesh Ripper with just 1 damage each. If they are resolved simultaneously,

every Flesh Ripper will be able to take 3 damage (as per his special ability) rather than only one. This will GREATLY affect the outcome of a battle.

Anyways, since "3. Resolve Special Abilities" (pg.22) states clearly, that the Special Abilities are resolved starting with the attacker , the Pegasus Rider's

Special Ability in our example will trigger first, routing the Berserker before his Fate Cards are resolved. The "Concurrent Attack Rule" on page 22 only

says that the Berserker's Fate Cards will be resolved. You may resolve it, but there are no standing Berserkers left to sacrifice, so the effect is forfeit.

If the defending unit were a Necromancer, his Special Ability "Raise Dead" would indeed trigger because the Necromancer still being standing is not

a precondition for the "Raise Dead" ability being triggered.

And by the way: The Pegasus Rider's routing due to his triggered Apecial Abilitiy (Orb) happens BEFORE any normal routing damage is assigned.

Step 4 of the battle "Resolve Routs" refers EXPLICITELY to "[...] Fate Cards drawn that have rout icons..." , not Orb icons.

The rules, IMO, are clear on this point, and I will play that way. However, I suspect this may put the attacker at too great an advantage, since his special

abilities are resolved first + he may overstack and thereby outnumber the defender + he may use "Conquer" Order to nearly nullify Stronghold bonus.

please correct me, if any of my deliberations are utter crap ^^

I don't think you said anything that hasn't been said before. I'm not going to argue about it anymore, I'm just going to wait for a real answer.

Regardless of the rules, I doubt their intent is to allow attackers to resolve and apply their special abilities, possibly preventing the defender from using their special abilities. As someone else mentioned, it just seems too powerful an advantage for the attacker.

Where's the Dev guy when we need him.

Technically, one of the players MUST resolve his abilities first. Yo cannot at the same time resolve the Pegasus' routing damage and the

Berserker's Sacrifice. This would lead to the "standing Berserker" being sacrificed WHILE being routed. This is logically impossible.

If the defender were to resolve his special abilities first, the Berserker would be routed ere he had a chance to sacrifice himself.

Someone must resolve first and they chose to give the advantage to the attacker.

If they unintentionally gave that advantage to the attacker, removing it will require a rephrasing of most special abilities. That wont happen (race sheets..)

Fine with me, it will probably lead to some dynamics on the map, rather than the stalemate my TI-games tend to become.

z22 said:

It is a powerful advantage. I don't know that it's "too" powerful though.

As Sol said, you can't resolve both of these abilities at once. Either the berserker is standing or not when his ability goes off - there is no "half-way standing" status for a figure in this game - and which way you lean on that debate determines which order the abilities are resolved in. I imagine there are many other examples of special abilities that would create a similar paradox if you refuse to put priority on one side or the other.

So, one side must get the advantage of resolving their ability first simply to maintain the order of play. If you give it to the attacker, it motivates aggressive battles and causes territory to change hands more easily. If you give it to the defender it motivates defensive battles and keeps things static. Giving it to the attacker causes the board position to change more easily, giving it to the defender makes things stagnate and encourages turtling strategies. Turtling is something FFG has actively opposed in successive editions of the TI franchise, so it's no surprise they've taken the attacker's side here as well.

I think it is a wise call. Keeps things moving, prevents the game from becoming a cold war stand off. I agree that this rule gives the attacker an advantage, but I don't think it's a game breaking one. I don't think it's "too" powerful. After all, this issue only arises when two opposing units pull orbs at the same time, and it only becomes a paradox like this when there are too few units for both abilities to resolve. If you consider the above the above scenario slightly modified - with two pegasi and two berserkers, where the extra units both pull a miss result - then there is no issue. Both abilities go off and who went first is irrelevant.

I think that if you play a game which regularly sees one-on-one combat between non-hero figures then you're probably doing something else wrong in the first place.

Well, here is my interpretation of how this is resolved:

When a special ability says to deal damage or rout, then resolve that damage/rout in its relevent phase (as if they were damage/rout icons). Other abilities, such as the flesh ripper or berserker (the sacrifice unit part) special, are immediately resolved.

3. Special Abilities (effects that do not deal damage/rout- note: sacrificing the berserker would be done here, while the damage resulted from the sacrifice would be done in step 5)

4. Routs (including routs from specials)

5. Damage (including damage from specials)

Normally this distinction wouldn't really matter (which is why I could see it being overlooked in the rule book), but in very particular cases like the above I think this is the intention of playing cards in order, as I can't think of many other reasons to not just throw the cards out face up.

Basically, I am basing my reading on the intent of: "if Fate cards have already been drawn for a unit type, then all of the cards will be resolved regardless of whether those units are later destroyed or routed." The intent here seems to be that if units have the same initiative, their actions are performed simultaneously, meaning that by this point in the combat those units shouldn't be interruptible.

To be fair, I can see the point of either reading, so an official word on this would be preferable.

I really don't understand this discussion.

If you score a Touchdown , but there was a flag and a holding penalty, the TD is cancelled.

Apparently some people here want the TD to count at all cost even if there was a flag.

There is supposed to be something in this game called "tactics" and "strategy"

If you put yourself in a situation where you can't execute your Special Abilities, you're not playing very well.

On the other side, playing the game such that you can do "your thing" and prevent your opponent from doing " his thing" is what I call "playing well".

It shouldn't be so hard to understand that this is part of the game ... not an error.

Kias said:

The Berserker's Orb result IS resolved ... only problem is ... there is no standing Berserker anymore to sacrifice

Kias said:

Yes, units from the same initiative bar draw their fate cards at the same time

but ... attackers draw first ... AND resolve their cards first.

So, that's definitely not intended to be resolved simultaneously.

Kias said:

Seriously, this is as clear as it can get IMO.

If we go on like this we'll need an official word on every line written in the manual

Chancellor of Sol said:

i have just said it before!!! :

" the uthuk ability is used but its condition (standing units) is not verified so your interpretation of situation for me is correct. "

DarkElf said:

Well said. Descent has already basically reached that point, hopefully RW won't go the same route...