With all the griping (which I'm fine with), and the griping about griping (which is OK too), I thought I'd fly a new topic that is not buffing or nerfing or anything like that; but it is related to our beautiful game. What about new design space? I gotta give Raydon86 credit. But how about we talk about adding to the game some:
Buzz Droids, Harpoon Guns, Tow Cables, Boarding Parties, etc.
This is a great beer-thirty discussion I'll have later too.
I think, despite how some people seem strangely phobic or allergic to new design space, it's vital to the game to stay healthy and will ultimately be beneficial and entertaining to the players at large.
Harpoons and towing are probably the least likely, that seems more like a thing on ground or atmospheric limited vehicles (and no matter how many people say the TIE Striker is purely atmospheric, doesn't mean they're right) and not really something I think explored as much in the ship scale of X-Wing. You're more likely to get something like a cargo or load-lifting arm which could reach out and grab or push ships and stuff near the ship. Like something which could hook an obstacle token and throw it out of your way, or something to grab a ship and force it to stop or move with you - though I can see that being very frustrating you might have to put some various restrictions on it.
Buzz Droids are probably the most likely, FFG has taken cues from Empire At War at various points, so the ability to just dump buzz droids as an illicit, or a missile/torpedo platform to apply them. A few ways you could probably have them work. They might be a condition which applies DOT unless the ship shakes them off, such as by rolling a die to check. They might work to disable certain upgrade types like Boba Fett, maybe they can work better if you limit what upgrades they can affect to things like Astros, Turrets or Cannons, Systems, Mods etc and no weird issues of Boba Fett making a ship not the Falcon anymore.
Boarding is probably a bit niche, and it might need a specific ship to start which caters to such an effect, but I've thought on some ideas to represent stuff like that. You could have an effect which triggers instead of an attack, and is limited to close range or even when touching a ship (or if you overlap that ship) - a "Boarding Tube" or similar as a mod or maybe double crew and the like, or use two crew slots for an EVA team as seen with certain mando ships in TCW/Rebels where they can pile out and shoot at the enemy ship then fly back. You could do a lot of things with it, maybe even more than one thing - I'm personally more interested in what ships would be able and good at such actions and what it could do for them. For Example, what sort of effect would be interesting to drop onto say, a TIE Shuttle which takes a "Boarding Party" crew upgrade and what should it's restrictions be? Would the game need to distinguish between an imperial team piling out of a TIE Shuttle or something from say, a rebel unit using the U-Wing or Wookiee Gunship? Could you have multiple boarding mechanics? Can epic get a hardpoint where they fire boarding pods at ships? This is a good design space but on it's own the question might be too broad to think about in high specificity the space is really open here.
Of course it would be fun!
Boarding would be a great addition to the game. It needs to be an appropriate type of ship (probably large base only), with ships designed to insert the boarding party. (Thus allowing new specialized ships to be added to the game.) It could add emphasis to things like ion cannons (the ship has to be stopped to be boarded), with rules about repulsing the boarded (probably just a contest of dice). If the ship is boarded, the boarding party takes control of the ship and gets to fly it for the rest of the game!
23 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:Buzz Droids are probably the most likely, FFG has taken cues from Empire At War at various points, so the ability to just dump buzz droids as an illicit, or a missile/torpedo platform to apply them. A few ways you could probably have them work. They might be a condition which applies DOT unless the ship shakes them off, such as by rolling a die to check. They might work to disable certain upgrade types like Boba Fett, maybe they can work better if you limit what upgrades they can affect to things like Astros, Turrets or Cannons, Systems, Mods etc and no weird issues of Boba Fett making a ship not the Falcon anymore.
I could see them working like that. Perhaps a torpedo as follows:
Buzz droids. Torpedo. 3 Points. Attack 4, Range 1-3.
Attack: Target Lock. Spend a target lock on the defender to make this attack. If the attack hits, assign the defender the Buzz Droid Token from your Buzz Droid Condition Card.
Buzz Droid Condition: While an enemy ship has the Buzz Droid Token from this condition card, it must roll an attack die at the start of combat, suffering any <Hits> or <Crits> rolled. At the start of the end phase, you may discard this token to discard a <Systems>, <Tech>, <Astromech> or <Salvaged Astromech> equipped on the affected ship. While an enemy ship has the Buzz Droid Token, it gains the following Action: Roll an attack die. On a <Hit> or <Crit> result, discard a Buzz Droid Token.
I've actually been looking to add buzz droids. I've been trying to find tiny, X-wing scale models of them with no luck. I might have to figure out a way to make reasonable facsimiles myself. Someone is selling custom buzz droid upgrade cards on eBay but I'm not sure I agree with their stats and deployment. I'll brew something up myself.
Boarding is probably something that would just be in Epic games, though I could see it happening between Large based ships in regular games.
Change the rules for bumping to allow for a Large/Huge ship to perform a Boarding Action.
Boarding Actions: Action, Large or Huge ship only. If in contact with another large or huge based ship, a large or huge based ship may make a Boarding Action, even though the ships are normally not allowed to perform actions. Roll a number of Attack dice equal to your primary weapon value. If 2 or more Hits/Critical Hits are rolled then the ships have successfully docked. During the Combat phase, the two ships may perform a Boarding Action secondary weapon attack targeting each other.
When performing a Boarding Action secondary weapon attack roll 2 attack dice, plus 1 additional attack dice per crew upgrade equipped. The defending ship rolls 2 defense dice, plus 1 additional attack dice per crew upgrade equipped. Evade and Target Lock tokens may not be spent to effect a Boarding Action roll. When a vessel suffers damage from a Boarding Action attack, it may discard any equipped crew cards to remove 1 damage per crew card discarded in this manner.
Boarding only recently became a mechanic in Armada, a game in which you'd assume boarding would be a huge part of capital ships duking it out. Even in that, while powerful, it's a one-shot gig, and difficult to set up. I can't quite imagine an X-wing equivalent, even large ship only, without thinking it would essentially be a Boba Fett crew card with more restrictions.
I recently entered the Atmospheric Assault Lander (First Order troop transport from TFA) in the CCL that Babaganoosh has on these forums. I created a bunch of custom cards that included several new mechanics. Boarding Party was one of them. Here is the link to my post.
If you don't feel like looking at all my cards, here are the important ones that relate to new mechanics.
It works sorta like a mine.
This card allows any ship with a crew slot to take a team slot and therefore a Boarding Party.
As far as other new mechanics go, the title for the AAL, made the ship has access to a team slot(for boarding parties) and a turret slot that can only shoot 270 degrees.
And lastly the AAL only modification introduced energy into normal play as well as a "fish tail" type of turn.
Any of these cards( the ideas on them, not the cards themselves) could be cool additions to game mechanics.
To me a "boarding party" kind of mechanic should be something that takes place when a ship carrying a boarding party (whatever upgrade type that may be) overlaps, or is otherwise touching, another ship. I would NOT make it an Action but rather simply an upgrade that would trigger when an overlap occurs which eliminates a few pesky potential problems. When it comes to the effects of boarding I can see a number of possibilities and I can also see cases where using a boarding party would be a one time thing or could be repeating. Possible effects:
I recall the thread asking what would happen if range restrictions were removed from things in the game and a potential change to Saboteur was mentioned. When I think of that card I'm not sure how it would operate beyond R1 but where I think it could be very thematic is if it was NOT an action but rather something that could be used when the saboteur's ship overlaps a target; effectively the saboteur would pop out and try to cause even more damage. A boarding party could do something similar.
The harpoon guns and tow cables are very reminiscent of the Tractor Beam although if used I suspect the mechanic, and slot use, may be slightly different.
Should they show up the Buzz Droids could be any number of things but most likely they'd be some piece of ordnance (missile, torp, or bomb) that applies a small but continual issue until dealt with. It could easily be a condition as FFG's release of conditions really frees them from the token hell they were on course for. Prior to conditions it seems all kinds of things also added some kind of token to the game which would then need further explanation; now that we have conditions those issues are basically tied up on the condition.
Edited by StevenOBuzz Droids, you could make that a template that gives a condition. Condition would be similar to IWSHTDS with the exception of ship type effects that is not direct hit.
As for Boarding and tow cables it would be neat if there was a ground combat game in the same scale as X-wing (think of Warmachine and Hordes and how those two games are compatible), unfortunately trying to balance such a game would be rather difficult. That would be the best place for such mechanics such as boarding and two cables.
Also for such a game you would need a different movement system than X-wing. The dials are great for a dogfight themed game, but not exactly the same for a regimental level tactics game. They could be useful for squad movement but again you will need a different set of maneuvers to mimic vehicle and infantry squad/platoon movement which would add more to the complexity and more to the difficulty of balancing.
For Buzz Droids I would simply make them a torpedo or rocket type weapon which gave Buzzdroid tokens.
Buzz Droid Launcher: torpedo: cost 5 points: Attack(target lock) Attack Value 3: Discard this card and a target lock to perform this attack. For every hit or critical hit scored upon the target ship, that ship gains 1 Buzz Droid token. Then cancel all dice results.
Buzz Droid Bomb: bomb: cost 2 points: place a buzz droid bomb token(proximity mine token). When a ship moves through or ends a maneuver on the token, roll 3 attack die. The ship gains 1 buzz droid token per hit or critical hit rolled.
Buzz Droid token: At the beginning of the Activation a ship with 1 or more Buzz Droid tokens must roll an attack die per token. On a hit or critical hit result, the ship suffers that damage or critical damage. This damage ignores shields.
Ships with one or more Buzz Droid tokens may perform the following action: Roll a number of defense die equal to the number of buzz droid tokens. For each evade result you may discard one buzz droid token.
I like the idea of Buzz Droids. I'm picturing them as a missile upgrade, potentially double missile. Actually, definitely double missile. Something like:
Buzz Droids (4 points, Missile, Missile)
Action : deploy a buzz droid token. This token detonates when an enemy ship or maneuver template overlaps the token.
Then on the buzz droid reference card:
At the beginning of the activation phase, a buzz droid token
must
execute a 1 [bank or straight] from its front guides (clearly marked on token with an arrow).
When this token detonates, the ship that overlapped the token receives one
weapons disables
token immediately and is assigned a "sabotaged" condition card.
Finally, the sabotaged card:
At the beginning of the combat phase, you
must
place one weapons disabled token on this ship.
Action:
discard this condition.
In effect, Buzz droids can disable the weapons system of high value targets until they have time to get rid of it. IT would pair very nicely with some kind of stressbot.
I think the Buzz Droids should cause straight damage. They definitely weren't just turning off systems in the times we've seen them. They were quickly turning star fighters into space debris.
Well, the problem with them being a double missile is that that's only imperials so far (and thus would not have a Stressbot setup) and otherwise the use of Buzz Droids (a CIS tactic) doesn't fit the imperial ethos a lot I think.
A singular "Discord Missile" to shoot them or just an Illicit to dump them (a la StarVipers in EaW) is probably the best way.
Also, it's funny you say that @BadMotivator I was just checking wookieepedia to make sure some names were right, and in the older Legends article it explicitly says they disable rather than destroy - which is backed up by their appearance in RotS where they disable Obi-Wan's astromech and sabotage his controls. They disable or damage systems which makes a fighter or other enemy ship easy prey rather than pick them apart outright. However, in game terms, shedding certain upgrades or even using it as ISYTDS but for Ship crits (which aren't named "Direct Hit") would be simplest for that.
Wookiee Commandos counter Boarding Party.
Where here was some ideas for infantry movements. I guess you could have them move before initiative 0. Fighters that move onto or overlap them could have the option to strafe if it is an enemy unit.
Infantry Movements.
4 hours ago, BadMotivator said:Boarding is probably something that would just be in Epic games, though I could see it happening between Large based ships in regular games.
Change the rules for bumping to allow for a Large/Huge ship to perform a Boarding Action.
Boarding Actions: Action, Large or Huge ship only. If in contact with another large or huge based ship, a large or huge based ship may make a Boarding Action, even though the ships are normally not allowed to perform actions. Roll a number of Attack dice equal to your primary weapon value. If 2 or more Hits/Critical Hits are rolled then the ships have successfully docked. During the Combat phase, the two ships may perform a Boarding Action secondary weapon attack targeting each other.
When performing a Boarding Action secondary weapon attack roll 2 attack dice, plus 1 additional attack dice per crew upgrade equipped. The defending ship rolls 2 defense dice, plus 1 additional attack dice per crew upgrade equipped. Evade and Target Lock tokens may not be spent to effect a Boarding Action roll. When a vessel suffers damage from a Boarding Action attack, it may discard any equipped crew cards to remove 1 damage per crew card discarded in this manner.
Boarding should probably be restricted to Crippled Huge Ships only, as seen in ANH. Boarding parties should definitely be Double Crew slot upgrades, discarded to board another ship. Security Team, a team upgrade, should prevent boarding. Roll three attack dice. For each blank or focus result place one tracking token on the Huge ship. At the end of the End phase remove one tracking token. When no tracking tokens remain the ship is 'captured' (considered destroyed).
There should Buzz Droids in two forms: dropped like a mine and delivered by a missile/torpedo.
I can see a place in the game for some kind of tow cable. A T-47 with the ability to hinder another ship; I just don't know the best way to translate that to something that makes X-wing sense.
I don't think boarding belongs in X-wing. The movement and attacks in X-wing, even in Epic, represent things happening in seconds. Boardings take minutes. I understand the "gameplay before fluff camp" and I frequently take that side, but you have to draw a line somewhere. I draw a line at Boardings.
By way of adding something new to this discussion; I want to see more Squadron mechanics. A new kind of card that applies to an entire list. Call this card type "Wing Leaders" and design them around buffing generics. It would be a full-size card like a pilot card, would always be unique and have special restrictions and abilities.
Examples:
• Black Leader - Your squad must contain at least three non-unique ships with the words "Black Squadron" in the pilot name. At the end of the Activation Phase, assign one focus token to all friendly ships with the words "Black Squadron" in the pilot name.
• Arvel Crynyd - Your squad must contain at least 2 pilot cards with the name "Green Squadron Pilot". At the start of the Combat Phase, you may discard this card. If you do, all friendly ships with the "Green Squadron Pilot" name may roll 1 additional attack die until the end of the Combat Phase.
4 hours ago, jmswood said:There should Buzz Droids in two forms: dropped like a mine and delivered by a missile/torpedo.
I can see a place in the game for some kind of tow cable. A T-47 with the ability to hinder another ship; I just don't know the best way to translate that to something that makes X-wing sense.
I don't think boarding belongs in X-wing. The movement and attacks in X-wing, even in Epic, represent things happening in seconds. Boardings take minutes. I understand the "gameplay before fluff camp" and I frequently take that side, but you have to draw a line somewhere. I draw a line at Boardings.
By way of adding something new to this discussion; I want to see more Squadron mechanics. A new kind of card that applies to an entire list. Call this card type "Wing Leaders" and design them around buffing generics. It would be a full-size card like a pilot card, would always be unique and have special restrictions and abilities.
Examples:
• Black Leader - Your squad must contain at least three non-unique ships with the words "Black Squadron" in the pilot name. At the end of the Activation Phase, assign one focus token to all friendly ships with the words "Black Squadron" in the pilot name.
• Arvel Crynyd - Your squad must contain at least 2 pilot cards with the name "Green Squadron Pilot". At the start of the Combat Phase, you may discard this card. If you do, all friendly ships with the "Green Squadron Pilot" name may roll 1 additional attack die until the end of the Combat Phase.
That is probably one of the best ideas I've seen in a long time.
My favourite as-yet-unexplored area is mobile token-based ordnance. I usually phrase it as Heavy Rockets, which are deployed as an action and then driven round the board at some initiative by the deploying player, and go off if they or their template overlaps a ship or obstacle, destroying the obstacle or doing a very high-damage but relatively easily-dodged attack (rather than just randomised autodamage) whenever that happens to be.
Heavy Rockets were always fun in TIE Fighter.
Squadron cards are cool.
I'd also like a ship with a dual card title affecting its primary weapon value somehow. Say, one which has four blasters, which can be fired two at a time, or all four at once followed by sequentially until there's a pause in firing to allow recharging. The blasters could even be arrayed in an X-shape. ON the wings.
Quad Blasters. T65 X-Wing only (and yes, errata the **** ship name already). Side a (linked): when attacking with your primary weapon you may flip this card to roll an additional attack die. If you do, you may change one [boom] to a [kaboom]. Side b (stutter): when attacking with your primary weapon, you may change one blank result to a [boom]. On a hit, cancel all dice, and deal one damage to the target. During the end phase if you did not make an attack with your primary weapon, you may flip this card.
Also, energy management on small ships in general:
Energy management systems (Weapons/Engines): Action: assign or remove a +1 green/-1 red or +1 red/-1 green token to your ship. The tokens do what they say on the tin, to a minimum of 1 in either stat. Essentially, a more functional variant of Expose.
There's a lot of space left over.
17 hours ago, UnitOmega said:Well, the problem with them being a double missile is that that's only imperials so far (and thus would not have a Stressbot setup) and otherwise the use of Buzz Droids (a CIS tactic) doesn't fit the imperial ethos a lot I think.
A singular "Discord Missile" to shoot them or just an Illicit to dump them (a la StarVipers in EaW) is probably the best way.
Also, it's funny you say that @BadMotivator I was just checking wookieepedia to make sure some names were right, and in the older Legends article it explicitly says they disable rather than destroy - which is backed up by their appearance in RotS where they disable Obi-Wan's astromech and sabotage his controls. They disable or damage systems which makes a fighter or other enemy ship easy prey rather than pick them apart outright. However, in game terms, shedding certain upgrades or even using it as ISYTDS but for Ship crits (which aren't named "Direct Hit") would be simplest for that.
Funny, I seem to distinctly remember a couple Arc-170s getting hit by buzzdroids and quickly breaking apart in the opening scenes of RotS.
Love the buzzdroid idea, very diabolical weapon!
23 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:Of course it would be fun!
Boarding would be a great addition to the game. It needs to be an appropriate type of ship (probably large base only), with ships designed to insert the boarding party. (Thus allowing new specialized ships to be added to the game.) It could add emphasis to things like ion cannons (the ship has to be stopped to be boarded), with rules about repulsing the boarded (probably just a contest of dice). If the ship is boarded, the boarding party takes control of the ship and gets to fly it for the rest of the game!
Boarding actions mechanics that let you take control of an opponent's ship is cool in concept (and thematic), but present a huge problem for design space in my opinion. Should an upgrade that lets you do that be priced equal to the potential ship it takes control of (still assuming large base)? If so, you're paying the cost of a ship in your squadron without actually having a ship. And if you manage to take control of a large-base ship using the upgrade, you're gaining a damaged ship into your squad (and going over the 100 point squadron limit).
What if you take control of a ship being flown by a unique pilot? Does the ship retain that pilot's skill and ability even though the ship has been boarded and taken over by another crew? Or does it become whatever the lowest pilot skill generic for that ship is? Or can only non-unique piloted ships be boarded and taken?
I personally see the Boba Fett crew card as a great example and starting point for future Boarding Party upgrades or actions. I'd be happy to see them build off of that so that upgrade cards that annoy people (or have the forum in an uproar about needing a nerf) run a larger risk of being discarded. If boarding became an action rather than a boarding party crew upgrade, I agree it would be cool to see some ships that are designed to take advantage of that sort of skill. Tanky ships that are designed to get in range one and start causing havoc with their hypothetical boarding action and various crew upgrades.
I'd like to see a Seperatist faction with software style upgrades for their Droid units. Buy your actions, buy your PS, and buy tech like upgrades.
Then give them oodles of unique secondaries. I'd look forward to that.