1 minute ago, Timathius said:

One thing I would say to that is I have seen the same thing. But the person, never said a word. I had to ask them later what happened.

If they would have simply said something most of us would have pulled out a different list.

I don't think it's quite that simple. Most people that pride themselves with list building aren't willing to accept that what they make can't compete with what the community at large produces. Which is true for almost everyone (including me) - the odds of finding the next paratani are so slim that I'm not even actively working towards it. For every paratani someone discovers, what we don't see is the 1000+ other players attempting their own thing and losing horribly.

It's the same reason so many lists don't get caught in playtesting, there are untold thousands of us trying to break every combination of ship, but only a hand full of playtesters out there trying to stop it from happening. Eventually something slips through.

1 minute ago, Brunas said:

I don't think it's quite that simple. Most people that pride themselves with list building aren't willing to accept that what they make can't compete with what the community at large produces. Which is true for almost everyone (including me) - the odds of finding the next paratani are so slim that I'm not even actively working towards it. For every paratani someone discovers, what we don't see is the 1000+ other players attempting their own thing and losing horribly.

It's the same reason so many lists don't get caught in playtesting, there are untold thousands of us trying to break every combination of ship, but only a hand full of playtesters out there trying to stop it from happening. Eventually something slips through.

That is fair, there is definitely a pride thing at work. But, what I am trying to illustrate is that as a community, both casual and competitive, we want each other to have a good time. As soon as you enter that game store, you are among friends. Don't be afraid to ask someone for a casual game OR a tourney prep game.

1 minute ago, Brunas said:

I don't think it's quite that simple. Most people that pride themselves with list building aren't willing to accept that what they make can't compete with what the community at large produces. Which is true for almost everyone (including me) - the odds of finding the next paratani are so slim that I'm not even actively working towards it. For every paratani someone discovers, what we don't see is the 1000+ other players attempting their own thing and losing horribly.

It's the same reason so many lists don't get caught in playtesting, there are untold thousands of us trying to break every combination of ship, but only a hand full of playtesters out there trying to stop it from happening. Eventually something slips through.

Except that plenty of people make some weird stuff and do well with it. Paul's Miranda/Biggs/Hog list was weird when he brought it. Nathan's Ahsoka+Corran list was also weird. Brazilian National Championship was won by Palp, Inquisitor, Vader, and defeated Grassholes to do it. Yavin was won by a TIE Swarm. Second place at Lothal was Carnor/Tomax/Quickdraw. You see this time and again at every tournament. The power lists show up regularly, but so do a huge diversity of other squads. The homebrew stuff regularly competes with -- and beats -- the netdecks.

In fact, they can often have an advantage. You have time to figure out how to beat the netdecks and get in practice, while they're only seeing your squad for the first time.

23 minutes ago, Brunas said:

If what's the best right now gets nerfed, there will be a new best, and it will be just as oppressive to everything else as the current best is. Not enjoying what the current "top meta" is fine and reasonable, but don't expect a rebalance to help it. If we remove mindlink, jumpmasters, and bombs, TLTs and Defenders are the boogeymen again. Take them out? Crack shot is breaking the game! Re-balancing all of it at once is impossible, you just need to pick your poison.

Completely true, and always will be.

22 minutes ago, Verlaine said:

A game like this is actually composed of many different 'sub-games'. In most games, your basic position is pretty well defined. Not so in X-Wing. You can do many different things by varying the victory conditions, points values, startig positions of ships, obstacles, and of course matchups - what side is going to fight against what? It's like there are an infinite amount of board games with only the rules as a common factor.

But the focus on competitive play then takes away a huge chunk of those sub-games.

The fact of the matter is, there is no such thing as casual X-Wing. This game is designed to be played at tournament tables, and any "lesser" version of the game is a perversion of the original intent.

While Epic ships exist, they also exist as ways to augment tournament play with specific cards and/or ship fixes. X-Wing is for the Knights of the Realm. . .we mere footmen simply get the benefit that the game exists if we would like to try to enjoy it.

FFG just needs to hire the HotAC guy and Phil Meade, then create the campaign box we are all waiting for.

13 minutes ago, DerekT said:

Except that plenty of people make some weird stuff and do well with it. Paul's Miranda/Biggs/Hog list was weird when he brought it. Nathan's Ahsoka+Corran list was also weird. Brazilian National Championship was won by Palp, Inquisitor, Vader, and defeated Grassholes to do it. Yavin was won by a TIE Swarm. Second place at Lothal was Carnor/Tomax/Quickdraw. You see this time and again at every tournament. The power lists show up regularly, but so do a huge diversity of other squads. The homebrew stuff regularly competes with -- and beats -- the netdecks.

In fact, they can often have an advantage. You have time to figure out how to beat the netdecks and get in practice, while they're only seeing your squad for the first time.

Yavin was not won by a tie swarm.

1 minute ago, Tbetts94 said:

Yavin was not won by a tie swarm.

Just going by what List Juggler had. http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=2710

But either way, there's consistently oddball stuff in the top 8 of every big tournament.

15 minutes ago, DerekT said:

Except that plenty of people make some weird stuff and do well with it. Paul's Miranda/Biggs/Hog list was weird when he brought it. Nathan's Ahsoka+Corran list was also weird. Brazilian National Championship was won by Palp, Inquisitor, Vader, and defeated Grassholes to do it. Yavin was won by a TIE Swarm. Second place at Lothal was Carnor/Tomax/Quickdraw. You see this time and again at every tournament. The power lists show up regularly, but so do a huge diversity of other squads. The homebrew stuff regularly competes with -- and beats -- the netdecks.

In fact, they can often have an advantage. You have time to figure out how to beat the netdecks and get in practice, while they're only seeing your squad for the first time.

Right - plenty of people bring weird stuff and do well with it. Orders of magnitude make weird stuff and it explodes in a horrible fire. Also, most of the weird stuff is still tier 1-2 stuff at worst, just oddball combos of them. Notable exceptions being the 100 point corran horn, heragattor, <imperial jank squad here>, etc

3 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

Yavin was not won by a tie swarm.

Last year

1 minute ago, Brunas said:

Right - plenty of people bring weird stuff and do well with it. Orders of magnitude make weird stuff and it explodes in a horrible fire. Also, most of the weird stuff is still tier 1-2 stuff at worst, just oddball combos of them. Notable exceptions being the 100 point corran horn, heragattor, <imperial jank squad here>, etc

Well sure. But that's because not everyone is a great player, nor is everyone good at squad building. You can't be a mediocre pilot with mediocre strategy flying a mediocre squad and expect to win your national championship.

2 minutes ago, DerekT said:

Just going by what List Juggler had. http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=2710

But either way, there's consistently oddball stuff in the top 8 of every big tournament.

Wrong year buddy

18 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

The fact of the matter is, there is no such thing as casual X-Wing. This game is designed to be played at tournament tables, and any "lesser" version of the game is a perversion of the original intent.

I will fully disagree with this. In the very first Core set were 3 missions you can run. That is completely away from standard tournament play. To say that tournament play is the only way is not true.

To say that the game is designed for tournament tables doesn't really reflect that it's the ONLY way the game is designed to be played. Tournament games are some of the hardest to balance for. If you can balance for those types of games then you have balanced for many of them. Just because FFG does design the game towards the hardest element equate to it being the only "true" way to play the game.

42 minutes ago, DerekT said:

You don't. I made it to top 4 of the last US Nationals flying Tel Trevura. Remember the powerful Tel Trevura meta? No, no you do not.

All due respect, the fact that you're good/smart/practiced/whatever enough to do well with a home brew list is probably more of an exception than a rule. My experience is that the meta lists dominate, and there are usually 3-5 of those at any given tournament...

But my experience might also be the exception...

3 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

FFG just needs to hire the HotAC guy and Phil Meade, then create the campaign box we are all waiting for.

And that's my point about there being no Casual X-Wing. This game is 5 years old.

Where is the Trench Run Dogfight Expansion Set? The one with cannons on the towers and rules for hitting a thermal exhaust port.

Where is the Battle of Endor Expansion Set? The one with a map of the inside of the DS II to navigate.

Where is the Battle of Scarif Expansion Set? The one with rules about how to drop the shield gate defenses before Imperial reinforcements arrive?

If these exist, they are fan made. No effort is being made on the part of FFG that isn't driven by tournament meta.

5 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Right - plenty of people bring weird stuff and do well with it. Orders of magnitude make weird stuff and it explodes in a horrible fire. Also, most of the weird stuff is still tier 1-2 stuff at worst, just oddball combos of them. Notable exceptions being the 100 point corran horn, heragattor, <imperial jank squad here>, etc

Yea, I mean I'm not sure "Paul's" list was all that oddball... lots of folks were flying the combo on Vassal before Paul's Open Win, and Miranda, Biggs, and the Stresshog have always been Tier 1 ships. The stress hog just lost a bit of popularity with the prominence of Zuckuss (crew) Buses, Dengaroo, and X7s none of whom cared about stress. Once the FAQ-Nerfs dropped, it was pretty clear that stress control was going to be super useful again, so it's not surprising people were slapping it right back into their lists.

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

Where is the Battle of Endor Expansion Set? The one with a map of the inside of the DS II to navigate.

Oh my God! Amazing idea! Now I'm gonna spend all day making a new Mario Kart track!

4 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I will fully disagree with this. In the very first Core set were 3 missions you can run. That is completely away from standard tournament play. To say that tournament play is the only way is not true.

To say that the game is designed for tournament tables doesn't really reflect that it's the ONLY way the game is designed to be played. Tournament games are some of the hardest to balance for. If you can balance for those types of games then you have balanced for many of them. Just because FFG does design the game towards the hardest element equate to it being the only "true" way to play the game.

Ok, I certainly concede the point. OTOH, it doesn't fully banish my grievance about "trickle-down X-Wing" (see above). I would really like to see FFG design some stuff for this game that uses Star Wars fluff as the basis for it's intent.

Just now, Tbetts94 said:

Oh my God! Amazing idea! Now I'm gonna spend all day making a new Mario Kart track!

Yep. And once per lap you get a chance to put a proton torpedo into the main core generator for bonus points.

OR, make it a "cul-de-sac" track. The end is the generator, the TIEs chase you in then out again. On the way out, having blown the generator, roll 1 damage die each turn and suffer the result. Can you make it out as/before the DS dissolves around you??!!

See, that took us both like 5 minutes. C'mon FFG!!

That is exactly why my time and enthusiasm investment in X-Wing is diminishing. It's been a slow process that started around Wave 5, but has accelerated since Wave 8.

Every time I see someone waxing on about how "RNG bad, reliability good," part of me just winces and mutters, "That's exactly what's killing the game."

But X-Wing has been "captured" (to use an Administrative Law term) by competitive players. I don't think there's any going back. I'm personally 95% sure Wave 11 will be the last ships I get, barring checking out X-Wing 2.0 when it comes. It'll likewise be 95% casual play for me ... which, unfortunately, probably means almost none (except HotAC on VASSAL).

20 minutes ago, macmastermind said:

All due respect, the fact that you're good/smart/practiced/whatever enough to do well with a home brew list is probably more of an exception than a rule. My experience is that the meta lists dominate, and there are usually 3-5 of those at any given tournament...

But my experience might also be the exception...

Shouldn't the top people in a national championship be the exception? The "rule" can't be that everyone is the best.

My three greatest moments in X-wing:

1) killing Fat Han to win a game that i flew all three scum hawks. Palob's primary and a weapon's failure crit. I was at range 1, so I got 1 die.

2) sent a full health RAC off the board with an ion missile

3) watching my 8-year old win his first tournament game with mindlinked Sycks and a Z-95.

I am competitive when i play, but i am more interested in making my own list and winning with that that just winning tournaments.

24 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Ok, I certainly concede the point. OTOH, it doesn't fully banish my grievance about "trickle-down X-Wing" (see above). I would really like to see FFG design some stuff for this game that uses Star Wars fluff as the basis for it's intent.

They have put out a mission in each large based ship.....except the recent Bat-Wing. Some of them are very thematic and quite fun.

You won't see me complaining if they gave more.

1 hour ago, DerekT said:

Except that plenty of people make some weird stuff and do well with it. Paul's Miranda/Biggs/Hog list was weird when he brought it. Nathan's Ahsoka+Corran list was also weird. Brazilian National Championship was won by Palp, Inquisitor, Vader, and defeated Grassholes to do it. Yavin was won by a TIE Swarm. Second place at Lothal was Carnor/Tomax/Quickdraw. You see this time and again at every tournament. The power lists show up regularly, but so do a huge diversity of other squads. The homebrew stuff regularly competes with -- and beats -- the netdecks.

In fact, they can often have an advantage. You have time to figure out how to beat the netdecks and get in practice, while they're only seeing your squad for the first time.

Wait wait wait, are you trying to pretend that 'stock Biggs + stock Y-Wing + stock Miranda' was some off the wall wacky list?

Its as straight down the middle of the new post-nerf stress meta as you could get!

1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Wait wait wait, are you trying to pretend that 'stock Biggs + stock Y-Wing + stock Miranda' was some off the wall wacky list?

Its as straight down the middle of the new post-nerf stress meta as you could get!

Guess I've just been out of the loop a bit. No one at my local game night plays it.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

This game is designed to be played at tournament tables, and

Demonstrably false. The original designer of the game has stated in interviews that their goal was a quick little beer and pretzels game that was not meant to be taken seriously. The phenomenal popularity of the tournament mode of play caught everyone by surprise. Also...

Quote

any "lesser" version of the game is a perversion of the original intent.

Is an arrogant and condescending statement that exemplifies the type of bad player most of this thread has been complaining about.

I do agree with your other points in your next post though, Yavin and Endor scenario boxes (and Scarif and Starkiller and whatever else) would be awesome and FFG is remiss in not producing such things.