On 4/6/2017 at 7:27 AM, ObiWonka said:

I discovered a way to phrase my personal gaming philosophy the other day, that I think might resonate with other players:

"If it's fun, it doesn't have to be good. But if it's good, it still has to be fun."

Such eloquence!

The way I see it, you're responsible for your own fun. All the other person is required to do is play by the rules, take their moves in a reasonable time, and maintain a basic level of decorum. Beyond that, it's up to you to find your enjoyment in the game. If you don't like playing against meta lists, then that's not on your opponent. Either find a way to enjoy them, or find people who don't like playing them.

If I showed up to game night with Karuba and everyone else wanted to play Terraforming Mars, that's not their problem. Either I need to try to enjoy Terraforming Mars, or I need to find other people who prefer Karuba. It's certainly not on the Terraforming Mars people to play what I want, and it's not on Haba to find people for me to play with.

15 minutes ago, DerekT said:

Well **** then, we might as well be complaining that they're not doing enough to support competitive play either. The norm is for stores to have monthly tournaments, but kits only come out quarterly, so competitive players spend 8 out of 12 months with nothing new to compete for. The prize kits have also gotten significantly worse -- fewer tokens, and no more first place prize. Also no folders or posters. They cut an entire store championship season. Registration for worlds is a mess. The binder from last year was very meh. Casual play has gotten Final Mission and Patrol Ambush from Heroes of the Resistance and the U-Wing while competitive play got virtually nothing from those expansions. There's still no prize support for escalation tournaments, and pirate format and hunger games have not even been recognized as official play styles.

When is competitive play going to get the recognition its earned by spending money on core sets and expansions?

Nice, then you should start a new Thread about it. I would be happy to post there, to hope for the best luck for FFG to improve the quality and quantity of supported tournaments, even if I do not enjoy the competitive enviroment si much, because I knwo it would be better for everyone.

Doublepost, sorry.

FWIW, I've always considered competitive support the best support for casual play. The more diverse and well balanced the competitive meta is, the easier it is to just build a list and not worry about whether it will result in a fun game. Realistically, the most casual friendly thing FFG could do is make X-Wings viable ships.

5 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

FWIW, I've always considered competitive support the best support for casual play. The more diverse and well balanced the competitive meta is, the easier it is to just build a list and not worry about whether it will result in a fun game. Realistically, the most casual friendly thing FFG could do is make X-Wings viable ships.

I think, although it's got confused and lost in here, this is basically the nub of the issue.

If the things that get labelled as 'competitive' didn't have such a power level gap to what is being labelled as 'casual' then it would be a big step towards reducing complaints.

39 minutes ago, DerekT said:

I compete in a tournament every Tuesday night, and even then I'll get 1 meta list, and 1 fun list, and then the third list is a toss up. It's all fine. If you lose your first match to a meta list, you'll probably get 2 fun lists after that. If you beat the meta list, you have higher odds of playing another meta list, but not always. And I've never heard someone genuinely complain about facing the meta lists there. We just see it as a challenge, and challenges are fun. Even if you get stomped, the challenge isn't always to win, but to push yourself to do better. If I go up against a meta squad I know I have a bad chance against, then I'm playing to get a decent MoV.

Again, how lovely for you that you are getting everything you need from the game.

20 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

FWIW, I've always considered competitive support the best support for casual play. The more diverse and well balanced the competitive meta is, the easier it is to just build a list and not worry about whether it will result in a fun game. Realistically, the most casual friendly thing FFG could do is make X-Wings viable ships.

Again with the trickle-down X-Wing theory. As I said earlier, Scum has been waiting 3 years to play epic. Support for alternate play styles is woefully minimalist.

Cripes the entitlement mentality from some people. Ever think that maybe it actually just takes a lot of time to develop some of these things? It's not like Corellian Conflict was just cooked up over one long weekend.

Every time something new comes out that I like, I'm happy about it. If a new wave comes out and I don't care for the ships, then I just keep playing what I've already got. I don't go complaining that FFG has violated its social contract with me by not supporting the exact format I prefer to play in.

Except for the lack of Assault Gunboat, that is. Where's the love for the Assault Gunboat fan community? We've been waiting since 1993 to have a game with an Assault Gunboat miniature. Can't even get a lousy micromachine version or Lego microfighter.

1 minute ago, DerekT said:

Except for the lack of Assault Gunboat, that is. Where's the love for the Assault Gunboat fan community? We've been waiting since 1993 to have a game with an Assault Gunboat miniature. Can't even get a lousy micromachine version or Lego microfighter.

That's because it's a stupid made up ship that everyone regrets ever being a part of Star Wars.

Just now, Stay On The Leader said:

That's because it's a stupid made up ship that everyone regrets ever being a part of Star Wars.

You're a stupid made up ship.

"Made up" is a really weird criticism to level at a ship considering that all of them are made up.

11 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

I guess I'm lost on your point.

My point is this: My local groups think like most X-Wing players think - that they have to build and practice the best lists all the time because they want to compete and do well at tournaments. If I go to the squad builder right now and tinker around and put something that looks cool together, I can BET ON THE FACT that I will be destroyed tonight when I go to the shop to run it.

You're right - those top lists were invented by someone. Someone who could afford to spend countless hours and brain work putting together the next meta-breaker. My point ISN'T that that's impossible to do. My point is that it is impossible for ME to do, because I don't want to be that guy.

I want to fly Luke. Because he's a childhood hero. And I want to fly him with Han and Chewy. Or maybe I want to fly the Lothal Rebels together. My point is - I want to find someone else who just wants to run something thematic and fun. Not someone who will WRECK me EVERY TIME with competitive lists that reduce the game to it's mathematical components...

SORRY for all the CAPS for EMPHASIS. I need more caffeine...

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

"Made up" is a really weird criticism to level at a ship considering that all of them are made up.

Some of them physically existed at one point or another.

Just now, LunarSol said:

Some of them physically existed at one point or another.

Including Gunboats, it's not like there aren't probably thousands of physical models of Gunboats out there of various scales and accuracies.

3 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Including Gunboats, it's not like there aren't probably thousands of physical models of Gunboats out there of various scales and accuracies.

Which would have been used in........?

Just now, Stay On The Leader said:

Which would have been used in........?

Games, promotions etc.

Being a movie prop doesn't mean it's not made up. It just means it was made up earlier and by someone with more influence.

I think you're mistaking my rib for a serious comment.

6 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Which would have been used in........

In the telling of histories in a fantasy environment, or in the making of diverse toys and games related to those histories.
Like any other SW ship, except the defender and the phantom (every knowledgeable person knows about the involvement of true defender and phantom fighters in the Second Nefaius War on the Caronte rele against the zargonians).

1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I think you're mistaking my rib for a serious comment.

Right back atcha

14 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

"Made up" is a really weird criticism to level at a ship considering that all of them are made up.

This one, that is.

31 minutes ago, macmastermind said:

My point is this: My local groups think like most X-Wing players think - that they have to build and practice the best lists all the time because they want to compete and do well at tournaments. If I go to the squad builder right now and tinker around and put something that looks cool together, I can BET ON THE FACT that I will be destroyed tonight when I go to the shop to run it.

You're right - those top lists were invented by someone. Someone who could afford to spend countless hours and brain work putting together the next meta-breaker. My point ISN'T that that's impossible to do. My point is that it is impossible for ME to do, because I don't want to be that guy.

I want to fly Luke. Because he's a childhood hero. And I want to fly him with Han and Chewy. Or maybe I want to fly the Lothal Rebels together. My point is - I want to find someone else who just wants to run something thematic and fun. Not someone who will WRECK me EVERY TIME with competitive lists that reduce the game to it's mathematical components...

SORRY for all the CAPS for EMPHASIS. I need more caffeine...

Plenty of other people have managed to beat the meta lists with squads they find fun. Sounds like you just need to git gud.

Edit: On second thought, it actually sounds like the other people need to git gud. If they think the absolute only way to be competitive is to fly the top power lists, then they're using the list as a crutch to compensate for bad flying or bad tactics. Yeah... it would be annoying to be stuck flying against people who only bring training-wheels squads to the table.

1 hour ago, DerekT said:

The way I see it, you're responsible for your own fun. All the other person is required to do is play by the rules, take their moves in a reasonable time, and maintain a basic level of decorum. Beyond that, it's up to you to find your enjoyment in the game. If you don't like playing against meta lists, then that's not on your opponent. Either find a way to enjoy them, or find people who don't like playing them.

This is true on its face, of course, but I would point out that it isn't a great community-building mentality. In the healthiest communities, members take it upon themselves to try to positively contribute to the experience of the person across from them. The bare minimum to do this is by maintaining basic decorum, as you mentioned, but a small step with big impact is also to have a quick chat beforehand about what sort of game you're looking for. Competitive and casual folks can easily share a game that they both enjoy, as long as they both start on the same page.

Just now, fiesta0618 said:

This is true on its face, of course, but I would point out that it isn't a great community-building mentality. In the healthiest communities, members take it upon themselves to try to positively contribute to the experience of the person across from them. The bare minimum to do this is by maintaining basic decorum, as you mentioned, but a small step with big impact is also to have a quick chat beforehand about what sort of game you're looking for. Competitive and casual folks can easily share a game that they both enjoy, as long as they both start on the same page.

And you know what's required for that? For the competitive person to play their competitive squad and the fun players to play the fun squad. It's not that tough. Going against the A-list meta is a fun challenge, and playing a meta squad against something you've never seen before is also a fun challenge.

Heading into worlds, I'm of course trying to figure out how to deal with the Power 5, but I'm also expecting 2/3 of my matches to be against random stuff I've never seen before and have to figure out how to deal with on the fly. Last year, I didn't even hit a meta squad until Day 2.

7 minutes ago, DerekT said:

Plenty of other people have managed to beat the meta lists with squads they find fun. Sounds like you just need to git gud.

Yep - there it is.

Whatever, dude. Thanks for affirming for me that my decision to leave the game had less to do with the game and more to do with the community decline. My experience/my opinion. Won't change just because you argue with it.

Over 'n' out.

8 minutes ago, DerekT said:

And you know what's required for that? For the competitive person to play their competitive squad and the fun players to play the fun squad. It's not that tough. Going against the A-list meta is a fun challenge, and playing a meta squad against something you've never seen before is also a fun challenge.

Heading into worlds, I'm of course trying to figure out how to deal with the Power 5, but I'm also expecting 2/3 of my matches to be against random stuff I've never seen before and have to figure out how to deal with on the fly. Last year, I didn't even hit a meta squad until Day 2.

That suits the competitive player fine. But the casual player might be daunted by a list as "strong" as the one the competitive player brings; or if it's a non-standard build, one that was nonetheless designed to hang with the strongest lists. It can create a feeling of "pressure to perform" that they don't want from their games, or a feeling of helplessness at the outset. Some people just don't relish facing obvious uphill climbs in a gaming environment. Everyone is different.

Speaking as a competitive player myself, my usual solution to this is to play a B-list that is similar, but not as synergistic or well-oiled, as the one I had in mind. I still get to practice all of the strategic and piloting skills that I need for high-end play, but even a flawless performance on my part is less likely to leave my opponent feeling blown away--which is an experience that nobody likes, even the most determined casuals.

17 minutes ago, fiesta0618 said:

That suits the competitive player fine. But the casual player might be daunted by a list as "strong" as the one the competitive player brings; or if it's a non-standard build, one that was nonetheless designed to hang with the strongest lists. It can create a feeling of "pressure to perform" that they don't want from their games. Heck, some people just don't relish facing obvious uphill climbs in a gaming environment. Everyone is different.

Speaking as a competitive player myself, my usual solution to this is to play a B-list that is similar, but not as synergistic or well-oiled. I still get to practice all of the strategic and piloting skills that I need for high-end play, but even a flawless performance on my part is less likelly to leave my opponent feeling blown away--which is an experience that nobody likes, even the most determined casuals.

Some people like getting blown away. It's a chance to see a new squad in action, see new strategies, to learn, and to grow as a player. And yeah, everyone is different. Some people don't want to get better, ...and I don't see why anyone should really be concerned with catering to them.