Skirmish Rules Timing Clarification

By robertpolson, in Imperial Assault Skirmish

Effects such as:

Obi-Wan Kenobi - Into the Force: When you are defeated, choose another friendly figure. That figure becomes Focused.

Luke Skywalker (Jedi) - Deflect: After an attack targeting you or an adjacent friendly figure resolves, a hostile figure of your choice in your line of sight suffers 1 damage.

and similar effects that do not include the keyword "may" how does the timing work?

1. If one of the above effects has not been applied during the round during which it was triggered, can the player controlling (controlled) the figure apply the effect at the beginning or a bit into the next round? As in, we forgot to apply the effect and since it resolves it has to be applied?

2.With regard to competitive play. If I see that my opponent forgot to apply the effect and I know that it was supposed to be applied, do I have to tell my opponent about the effect or am I not obligated?

I think the answer depends on Tournament Tiers as defined by the Tournament FAQ (see their full definitions in the linked PDF)

  • Relaxed - You should help your opponent remember these things
  • Formal - You should allow your opponent to do these things later in the round/beginning of next round later as long as that wouldn't hugely affect game-state (i.e. would have changed the actions you took on several subsequent turns), but don't need to remind them to do them.
  • Premier - No obligations to remind your opponent of things that help them or allow late triggers past a reasonable timeframe (when several things are resolving, i.e. points for kills + Obi Focus + completing an activation)

But this would just be my own ruling, and is not based on any official rules, just the spirit of the tier descriptions.

Edited by nickv2002

So situation based judgement call :)

1 minute ago, robertpolson said:

So situation based judgement call :)

Yeah, a hard and fast rule would be against the intentions of having different tiers

Also, BTW, if these cards said 'may' in their card descriptions my answers wouldn't be that different except that I would be stricter on late corrections in the Formal tier (probably only within 1 group's activation)

Edited by nickv2002

Technically if it doesn't say "may" and you don't remind them, you have contributed to an illegal game state. Unless you both forget, you should always be triggering those abilities because they are not optional.

Tournament Rules said:

Missed Opportunities

Players are expected to follow the game's rules, remembering to perform actions and use card
effects when indicated. It is all players' responsibility to maintain a proper game state, and to
ensure that all mandatory abilities and game steps are acknowledged.

Both players are responsible for mandatory effects.

Edited by a1bert

Fact here, is to decided if these effect are mandatory or not.
As both use a "choose a figure", you may decided to choose no figure.

If there is no "may", and the ability says to "choose a figure", you must choose a figure, unless there is no valid figure to choose.

You don't get to pick which parts of abilities to perform.

Obi-Wan can choose a figure who is already focused, if you don't want any of your other remaining figures focused. Deflect has to choose a hostile figure if there is at least one hostile figure in line of sight of Luke (Jedi Knight).

Edited by a1bert

Yes, you would technically be cheating if you intentionally ignore a mandatory effect, regardless of whom it would benefit. Intent is very hard to prove though, unless you outright admit to it.

And you should correct it if a mandatory effect has been forgotten, however there are no real clear guidelines on how to do that (and such would be very hard to write), as it is difficult to retroactively correct it without one player or another getting an advantage (from decisions made on an assumed board state that is no longer the case). Rewinding a game is probably not easy, remembering what was where when, just as it would be unhandy if playing a timed match at a tournament.

This basically leaves it a grey area for the players to solve in a somewhat fair manner considering the circumstances, or making it the call of a judge, if unable to.

Edited by Cremate

Agent Blaise's Adapt ability is one such mandatory effect, that it is very easy to miss (because it is triggered out-of-schedule, so to speak, at any random moment during the game), which is why it has led to lengthy discussions of this in the past.

My take on this, besides trying to avoid missing the trigger in the first place, has been to allow my opponent to add that Hidden condition retroactively once we realised we had missed the trigger, with one caveat: to not place it on a figure that is in the middle of activating or just about to be shot at. This is to try to minimise the risk anyone of us having taking tactical decisions on a 'surprise' board state.

From what i saw, only Vinto as the "may"keyword inside his effect. All other could be read as mandtatory.
During formal tournament, we apply the following statement:

If a benefic effect is not apply when it's trigger, it fall appart the miss trigger and it's not apply. Because it may change the decision you take for the activation order, and it will rollback a lot of thing.
It the same for the bonus granted to some figure (+1 Block or +1 evade). If you forgot the bonus during the attack resolution, will you remember afterward all the dice face to do the resolution state again ?

I'm more relax when it's fun palying

6 hours ago, Cremate said:

Agent Blaise's Adapt ability is one such mandatory effect, that it is very easy to miss (because it is triggered out-of-schedule, so to speak, at any random moment during the game), which is why it has led to lengthy discussions of this in the past.

My take on this, besides trying to avoid missing the trigger in the first place, has been to allow my opponent to add that Hidden condition retroactively once we realised we had missed the trigger, with one caveat: to not place it on a figure that is in the middle of activating or just about to be shot at. This is to try to minimise the risk anyone of us having taking tactical decisions on a 'surprise' board state.

Agreed: Blaise is the trickiest because it's so easy to miss. I don't think it's really my responsibility to remind my opponent of this much later in a round if we both honestly missed it. I'm not suggesting distracting an opponent or failing to mention it if you do remember it; but if you notice something like this was missed significantly later in the round, there's really no good solution.

Your take is as good as any, but only works if the game state has progressed little. What about if the Blaise player remembers the missed trigger one round later when they trigger it again (remembering this time)? It's not really fair to either player to retroactively apply an extra Hidden at that point is it?

You should basically assume that if you miss something, your opponent will not remind you and will not let you go back and fix it, and neither will the judges, most likely.

One of the problems is that it is very situational. Wrong amount of damage placed on a figure, damage not placed on a figure, forgetting to focus, forgetting to draw a card--- one of the main determinants is does what was missed/forgotten affect the current game state or would it of affected decisions made since it should have went into effect.

But, the more things that occur after the window of opportunity for the ability / effect / ect, regardless of how it impacts the game state, the less likely I am to allow it. As a player or judge.