So, the problem with the design of mindlink is not the action multiplication so much as the way the weakness works- the builds that I think mindlink was supposed to enable, like, say, six sycks with it, or or 3 gand findsmen and a z-95, are burdened quite heavily by the stress effect because these kinds of ships need to have more than one be able to take a red maneuver. I don't really think you can tweak the cost- it just hits almost a perfect cost-effect ratio with 3 ships, where you can still afford valuable ships and also benefit from more than two mindlinks. Mindlink is even better in six ships, but then you're stuck with sycks.

3 minutes ago, DerekT said:

Kyle Katarn (3), BB8 (2), PtL (3). That gives you 4 actions for 8 points.

Shara Bey standing by for the 5th. Pretty savage action economy.

Sure, except all those actions are isolated to Shara herself and if she's blocked or stressed they are all lost except for Kyle's Focus. So it's nowhere near as flexible as Mindlink spam. Also worth noting that turns in which Shara is using Push she's not using BB-8 next turn, so the action-economy is internally contentious and only gets to 4 every other turn, at best (since Shara can't have Primed Thrusters).

I remain unconvinced.

2 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Please show me anything else in this game that can approach turning 1 action into 5 actions for a mere measly 11 Points (though, Unhinged Astro isn't even required in such a set-up given the great innate greens of the JM5k, you could make a case that it's really only a 9pt combo, and the very efficient Unhinged Astros are just icing on the cake). But since we're really just talking about Mindlink, please find me any 3 point Rebel or Imperial investment that turns 1 Action into 3 Actions as long as anyone gets an action.

Except ML is not turning 1 action into 5 actions. 2 of those actions are coming from OTHER cards. The fact that you would even try to present AM as having anything to do with the 2 TL actions shows that you yourself have no interest in objective truth. AM turns 1 action into 3, adding two actions. And keep in mind, it does not do this for 1 point, it does that for 3 points, since the other ships ALSO need to pay for AM. Hux is +2 points for the same number of actions, but also assigning fanatical devotion.

Hell Hux + 2 ships with Systems officer (one of which can be the same ship carrying Hux) gets you the same 2 TL actions AND 3 focus AND fanatical devotion. For the same 2 green maneuvers that K4 required AND costs 2 less points. So there you go. A combination of cards costing less points, netting the same number of actions, taking LESS slots overall AND granting you a condition.

You can question my objectivity all you want, but I think you've shown you have no interest in being honest yourself.

1 minute ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Sure, except all those actions are isolated to Shara herself and if she's blocked or stressed they are all lost except for Kyle's Focus. So it's nowhere near as flexible as Mindlink spam. Also worth noting that turns in which Shara is using Push she's not using BB-8 next turn, so the action-economy is internally contentious and only gets to 4 every other turn, at best (since Shara can't have Primed Thrusters).

I remain unconvinced.

She pushes off BB8, and then immediately clears the stress and gains the Kyle focus.

5 minutes ago, streamdragon said:

Except ML is not turning 1 action into 5 actions. 2 of those actions are coming from OTHER cards. The fact that you would even try to present AM as having anything to do with the 2 TL actions shows that you yourself have no interest in objective truth. AM turns 1 action into 3, adding two actions. And keep in mind, it does not do this for 1 point, it does that for 3 points, since the other ships ALSO need to pay for AM. Hux is +2 points for the same number of actions, but also assigning fanatical devotion.

Hell Hux + 2 ships with Systems officer (one of which can be the same ship carrying Hux) gets you the same 2 TL actions AND 3 focus AND fanatical devotion. For the same 2 green maneuvers that K4 required AND costs 2 less points. So there you go. A combination of cards costing less points, netting the same number of actions, taking LESS slots overall AND granting you a condition.

You can question my objectivity all you want, but I think you've shown you have no interest in being honest yourself.

Uh, what the hell? I was literally quoting YOU, who said the "11 points for 5 Actions" was a reasonable cost. It was YOUR math I was responding to, I never suggested they be included or were directly relevant to Mindlink's value (like, why even include the Unhinged, other than it makes your 11 points sound more expensive than the 9 points?)

For the record, I think the analysis gets even worse if you just look at Mindlink, of course, since then it's 3 Actions for 1 Action for a measely 3pts, which nothing can even try to touch (as I noted in the General Hux example earlier). I was just running with what you had already said... And we all know the brute Point-Per-Action analysis is only half of the story, since the majority of Mindlink's value comes from the action-sharing which insulates the list from stress, blocking, and obstacles to some degree.

2 minutes ago, DerekT said:

She pushes off BB8, and then immediately clears the stress and gains the Kyle focus.

Oh yea, good point. Still, it's a single ship that is not action sharing/passing and is itself completely susceptible to blocking or stress. Still, it does establish that in fringe cases other such Actions-Per-Points economies may exist, though are still far less flexible than that afforded by Mindlink (which is not susceptible to blocking or stress unless all ML'ed ships are such denied).

18 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I never suggested they be included, I was responding to a QUOTE where it was said that you get 5 Actions for 11 points (but really 9, but whatever).

For the record, I think the analysis gets even worse if you just look at Mindlink, of course, since then it's 3 Actions for 1 Action for 3pts, which nothing can even try to touch (as I noted in the General Hux example earlier). I was just running with what you had already said...

That one is easy tho.

What if we go even more extreme than the Stele's winner list about economy rather than offense and having one stressbot?

Norra + BB8 + PtL + Jyn + title

Biggs + R2F2 + IA

Thane Kyrell + R2D2 + title + Jan ors

4 points to spare or to get Shara in there for the guaranteed TL for Norra.

For 8 points on upgrades on 3 upgrade slots you get atleast 6 actions per turn, one of them equals to 3 actions, so 8 actions. So many evades for Biggs with 3 agility that it is not even funny.

21 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Oh yea, good point. Still, it's a single ship that is not action sharing/passing and is itself completely susceptible to blocking or stress. Still, it does establish that in fringe cases other such Actions-Per-Points economies may exist, though are still far less flexible than that afforded by Mindlink (which is not susceptible to blocking or stress unless all ML'ed ships are such denied).

It is susceptible to blocking or stress, regardless of whether or not all ships are denied. Are you really going to maintain that all ships having a single focus token is just as good as having their entire action bars available?

Fenn doesn't ever need to boost, barrel roll, or TL? Scouts don't ever need a TL to fire their torpedoes, or use that large base barrel roll to set up a block? Asajj never needs to rotate her arc or evade?

Mindlink mitigates the detriment of stress or blocking somewhat. But there is no way you actually believe that having a focus token counts as being "not susceptible". Do you?

To illustrate, take an Attani list and never take an action other than focus for the entire game and tell me if you notice a difference in power.

Attani might not be as susceptible to stress and blocking as you think it should be. But being not susceptible is a pretty indefensible position.

29 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Sure, but you're bringing other ships in the list anyways . It's not like Mindlink makes you pay for a bunch of ships you wouldn't have brought anyways, so I have to disagree with your "valuation of Mindlink." The cost of Mindlink is 1*X, where X = the number of Mindlink cards. No one is like " ugh, I want to run Mindlink, but crap that means I have to bring more than one ship.... " And it's not like S&V have to even make compromises to only bring ships with EPTs (which would be an expensive burden for someone like Rebels), since S&V ships feature the highest per capita presence of EPTs and they have a generic with an EPT available for most of their ship types.

Exactly this. And this is the main reason Mindlink surpasses PTL in my book. You pay nine points for three PTL ships. You pay three points for three Mindlink ships, the cost you pay for one PTL, and you are getting basically the same level of action economy without the guaranteed stress.

7 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

Exactly this. And this is the main reason Mindlink surpasses PTL in my book. You pay nine points for three PTL ships. You pay three points for three Mindlink ships, the cost you pay for one PTL, and you are getting basically the same level of action economy without the guaranteed stress.

Yes, but not all three ships are getting two actions and there is still the limiting factor that one of the actionshas to be a focus.

9 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Yes, but not all three ships are getting two actions and there is still the limiting factor that one of the actions has to be a focus.

Right and Voitek points that out in his post (which was quoted in the post I quoted... Kind of hate that quotes don't compile anymore since the forum interface change) along with a couple other things PTL has going for it. There is certainly some positives and negatives to both, but I don't think anyone in their right mind seeing what Mindlink is doing now, is saying it is correctly costed at 2 points cheaper than PTL considering the comparisons. And just as a reminder- before Mindlink hit the scene, PTL accounted for nearly 1 in every 2 elite upgrades (according to listjuggler). Sooo if you are getting a comparable elite upgrade to the most popular elite (by far) for 2 points cheaper, is it any question as to why people might think it's an issue?

1 minute ago, Kdubb said:

Right and Voitek points that out in his post (which was quoted in the post I quoted... Kind of hate that quotes don't compile anymore since the forum interface change). There is certainly some positives and negatives to both, but I don't think anyone in their right mind seeing what Mindlink is doing now, is saying it is correctly costed at 2 points cheaper than PTL considering the comparisons. And just as a reminder- before Mindlink hit the scene, PTL accounted for nearly 1 of every 2 elite upgrades (according to listjuggler).

(Yeah, but the quote chains could get really long.) Maybe I'm not in my right mind, but I still thinks it checks out. Push the Limit's primary strength (at least in my mind) is how it can make a ship more self sufficient. A PTL Ace or something like a PTL Norra is a holy terror end game, even flying solo. Mindlink's decreasing returns as its carriers go down evens out its power levels for me.

26 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

(Yeah, but the quote chains could get really long.) Maybe I'm not in my right mind, but I still thinks it checks out. Push the Limit's primary strength (at least in my mind) is how it can make a ship more self sufficient. A PTL Ace or something like a PTL Norra is a holy terror end game, even flying solo. Mindlink's decreasing returns as its carriers go down evens out its power levels for me.

It isn't a question of how good PTL is. PTL is AMAZING. Players have been discussing PTL and its dominant position as the king Elite talent in the game for years. There are some ships that wouldn't see play at all if it wasn't for PTL.

So you pinpointed a major thing PTL has over Mindlink- it performs better in the end game. Yet, with mindlink, a block doesn't mean a (basically) dead ace, for the first x amount of turns you get a focus even when you perform a white when stressed (and sometimes even when you perform a red maneuver), and it doesn't inherently give you stress. Those are some BIG pros. Even if they don't do the same thing, they are comparable enough and hold similar amounts of pros and cons between the two of them that I think they should be costed similarly.

But If you can come up with 3x as many pros that PTL has over mindlink than Mindlink has over PTL, then I would be willing to concede the point.

6 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

It isn't a question of how good PTL is. PTL is AMAZING. Players have been discussing PTL and its dominant position as the king Elite talent in the game for years. There are some ships that wouldn't see play at all if it wasn't for PTL.

So you pinpointed a major thing PTL has over Mindlink- it performs better in the end game. Yet, with mindlink, a block doesn't mean a (basically) dead ace, for the first x amount of turns you get a focus even when you perform a white when stressed (and sometimes even when you perform a red maneuver), and it doesn't inherently give you stress. Those are some BIG pros. Even if they don't do the same thing, they are comparable enough and hold similar amounts of pros and cons between the two of them that I think they should be costed similarly.

But If you can come up with 3x as many pros that PTL has over mindlink than Mindlink has over PTL, then I would be willing to concede the point.

And that's fair. This is clearly a point where it very much depends on personal view and tolerances. I think it is fine, but I can understand why you don't. I'll even go so far as admitting that I might be wrong on this subject. But That's how I read the comparison personally.

The game is just a series of problem solving exercises where each solution is also the next problem for people to solve. Mindlink in the new problem and there's plenty of tools to help you deal with it. And complaining about something being over costed or not doesn't really help you to solve the problem. I mean, eventually FFG will create a new solution to it, but then everyone's got the solution for just $20 at their FLGS. And that new solution is the next problem, and you can either figure out how to beat it or just lose until FFG releases something new for you to beat it with ...and then have to deal with beating.

On 5/4/2017 at 9:32 PM, Burius1981 said:

I've played Fenn Rau with Mindlink and with PtL.

PtL Fenn is much more flexible. The ability to Boost and Barrell roll makes him tougher to nail down, the ability to take any two of his actions is really good. PtL Fenn doesn't care about what his squad mates are doing. PtL Fenn is a much better endgame ship.

Mindlink Fenn is cheaper but very list dependent. His maneuvers are a little more open but sometimes you need to perform a red maneuver on someone and it constrains his dial just the same as PtL Fenn. If Fenn is the last ship alive his EPT slot is moot, 1 point and the slot doing nothing. He can be easily out maneuvered with only one action per turn.

Blocking is still a thing against Mindlink lists; I know that it can do bad things to my plans for the round. A key block forces me to take the Focus action on a ship that I had other plans for. Mindlink is resistant to blocking the same way that it is resistant to stress but both will still throw a wrench into my plans and make things more difficult for me.

If you increase the cost to 2 points, you kill the card. It is good for a 1 point card, not great as is. The fact that you need to fill up the valuable EPT slot of at least three ships to be effective is a big deal. If you change the wording so that you can't get a Focus when stressed, then you kill the card because then it is hard counter by anything that can hand out stress (Stresshog, Rebel Captive, Tactician).

Strange, I found Mindlink way more flexible than PTL. With PTL you must take a green maneuver all the time. Plus, against any stress dealer you're litterally screwed 'cause you stress yourself.

With Mindlink you have the entire dial opened, EVEN the Tallon Roll/Koyogram, that's huge! And still keep a focus.

Plus any stress dealer needs to focus you 2 times, so you actually fear only the R3-A3 BTL Y-wing. A ship that is pretty easy to dodge.

21 minutes ago, Cerve said:

Plus any stress dealer needs to focus you 2 times, so you actually fear only the R3-A3 BTL Y-wing. A ship that is pretty easy to dodge.

Gunner Braylen can also double stress you, in place of the BTL Y-Wing, but has two arcs from which to stress you.

22 minutes ago, streamdragon said:

Gunner Braylen can also double stress you, in place of the BTL Y-Wing, but has two arcs from which to stress you.

That's true!

16 hours ago, Voitek said:

You are.

If you screw your Fenn flying, you get 1 focus instead of 2; you cant reliably atack AND make sure you dont die. Loosing a token, that's a punishment in my book. Not as painful as loosing both of them, obviously, but still painful.

Yeah... This is exactly the palp crutch. You have a good ship (fell/fenn) and either mess up or is outflown and the crutch saves you from falling at more or less no in-game cost. The scum ships are good enough on their own.

13 hours ago, Ram said:

Yeah... This is exactly the palp crutch. You have a good ship (fell/fenn) and either mess up or is outflown and the crutch saves you from falling at more or less no in-game cost. The scum ships are good enough on their own.

Lack of PTL is the true in-game cost for Fenn to have this one focus when he is bumping.

17 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Mindink doesn't cost 1 though, it costs a bare minimum of 1 + another EPT ship +1. Its cost is not something that can really be looked at in isolation.

I know. The list I made is just a mind excersise to "compare" this two EPT's, it'a not some proper analytics science. Counting EPT as 1 point was just a neccessary simplification.

I mean I can imagine that if you're newish to the game and only ever found success with silly broken scum cards you might feel a bit protective of them - you've never really known anything else so it seems perfectly normal.

1 hour ago, Voitek said:

Lack of PTL is the true in-game cost for Fenn to have this one focus when he is bumping.

And a non-specialized EPT that out-competes PTL does not raise a flag..?

"This is better than the best EPT so it's fine"

Here's an interesting thought for a nerf to mindlink that keeps it working for interesting lists but stops it working for generics:

Append 'You must ignore your pilot ability whilst any other friendly ship with this upgrade is in play.'

Now generics get the use of it they always have, but Fenn and Assaj and Manaroo don't want to touch it with a barge pole any more.

Except it's still a problem on the Scout, but that's because the Scout is still a problem.