12 hours ago, Sekac said:

Oh look, that rebel list just beat multiple Attani mindlink scum lists in the cut at Stele Open! And what's this, a "joke build" T-70 with R3-A2? But a single stress doesn't matter at all against mindlink, it can't!

Don't want to burst your bubble but I saw this match and Rebel victory was really lucky - Fenn in key turn blanked out on four green dice and get Stunned Pilot critical hit. It set the rest of the game.
It doesn't mean Attanni is overpowered - because in my opinion it is fine card. But this final indicates nothing - given how it played out.

1 hour ago, Voitek said:

Going through all the results in List juggler, dated between the FAQ becoming legal and Friday. Simple as that.

I fundamentally disagree with the hypothesis that mindlink is generating any kind of problems - this is just another untrue claim made by nerfing fans who likes to spread myths and legends. Even when tournament results says otherwise.

Your opinion is duly noted.

I took some time and looked briefly through the biggest tournaments:
Brazil: Loads of mindlinks, 2 in T4
Italy: Mindlink won, not a lot of mindlinks otherwise
Hoth System Open 2017: Quite a few mindlinks, didnt to too well
Naboo Open 2017: Three mindlinks i T4
Tatooine System Open: Lots of mindlink, 3 mindlinks in T4
Daventry Regional 2017: Mindlink all over the top lists
Fresno Regional March 2017: Mindlink won, 2 in T4
X-Wing Regional 2017 Stockton: Not that much mindlink, Minlink took second and third

Perhaps a deeper analysis of your alternative facts would be a thought.

TL;DR; My only beef with Mindlink really is that it is fairly hard to stop and requires other strong or boring cards to achieve that. I like the effect, but I as a player feels that it would be a lot better if the mindlink could be turned off by another effect then stress. I really like the mechanic, but I want to be able to counter it with skill, not upgrades. Again, a bump->loose action would be perfect.

And Scum was ~75% of lists right through the cut as well. I don't know if they were Mindlinked or not.

3 minutes ago, Ram said:

Your opinion is duly noted.

I took some time and looked briefly through the biggest tournaments:
Brazil: Loads of mindlinks, 2 in T4
Italy: Mindlink won, not a lot of mindlinks otherwise
Hoth System Open 2017: Quite a few mindlinks, didnt to too well
Naboo Open 2017: Three mindlinks i T4
Tatooine System Open: Lots of mindlink, 3 mindlinks in T4
Daventry Regional 2017: Mindlink all over the top lists
Fresno Regional March 2017: Mindlink won, 2 in T4
X-Wing Regional 2017 Stockton: Not that much mindlink, Minlink took second and third

Perhaps a deeper analysis of your alternative facts would be a thought.

TL;DR; My only beef with Mindlink really is that it is fairly hard to stop and requires other strong or boring cards to achieve that. I like the effect, but I as a player feels that it would be a lot better if the mindlink could be turned off by another effect then stress. I really like the mechanic, but I want to be able to counter it with skill, not upgrades. Again, a bump->loose action would be perfect.

Once again:

What were the ships?

1 minute ago, Ram said:

Your opinion is duly noted.

I took some time and looked briefly through the biggest tournaments:
Brazil: Loads of mindlinks, 2 in T4
Italy: Mindlink won, not a lot of mindlinks otherwise
Hoth System Open 2017: Quite a few mindlinks, didnt to too well
Naboo Open 2017: Three mindlinks i T4
Tatooine System Open: Lots of mindlink, 3 mindlinks in T4
Daventry Regional 2017: Mindlink all over the top lists
Fresno Regional March 2017: Mindlink won, 2 in T4
X-Wing Regional 2017 Stockton: Not that much mindlink, Minlink took second and third

Perhaps a deeper analysis of your alternative facts would be a thought.

TL;DR; My only beef with Mindlink really is that it is fairly hard to stop and requires other strong or boring cards to achieve that. I like the effect, but I as a player feels that it would be a lot better if the mindlink could be turned off by another effect then stress. I really like the mechanic, but I want to be able to counter it with skill, not upgrades. Again, a bump->loose action would be perfect.

Dear Sir, it's you who is manipulating facts, not me.

Why are you checking PRE-NERF results? This are not the tournaments you are looking for. Obviously there will be more attani mindlink in those tournaments since manaroo was the true engine of many, if not most, mindlink lists (Parattani?). But she is BADLY nerfed now!

Do this again, with after-nerf tournaments only, take any number you want - whetever it's TOP4, TOP8, or anything else, but show us some agreggated numbers as I did. Granted, I only looked at winner's results, but that's some indication as well. Just a "rough summary", based on pre- and post-nerf results - as you did, is only clouding the view instead of giving us any insight.

7 minutes ago, Voitek said:

Dear Sir, it's you who is manipulating facts, not me.

Why are you checking PRE-NERF results? This are not the tournaments you are looking for. Obviously there will be more attani mindlink in those tournaments since manaroo was the true engine of many, if not most, mindlink lists (Parattani?). But she is BADLY nerfed now!

Do this again, with after-nerf tournaments only, take any number you want - whetever it's TOP4, TOP8, or anything else, but show us some agreggated numbers as I did. Granted, I only looked at winner's results, but that's some indication as well. Just a "rough summary", based on pre- and post-nerf results - as you did, is only clouding the view instead of giving us any insight.

I am not quite sure what I am doing wrong. The FAQ was released 6th of march. https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/3/6/bringing-balance-to-the-force/

In list juggler, I sorted on date and took out the tournaments that was above maybe 60 players and later then the 6th of march. So what am I missing?

Just now, Ram said:

I am not quite sure what I am doing wrong. The FAQ was released 6th of march. https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/3/6/bringing-balance-to-the-force/

In list juggler, I sorted on date and took out the tournaments that was above maybe 60 players and later then the 6th of march. So what am I missing?

The FAQ didn't take effect until 17 March. Several major tourneys happened in between using the older FAQ.

2 minutes ago, Ram said:

I am not quite sure what I am doing wrong. The FAQ was released 6th of march. https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/3/6/bringing-balance-to-the-force/

In list juggler, I sorted on date and took out the tournaments that was above maybe 60 players and later then the 6th of march. So what am I missing?

I can tell you what you are doing wrong.

The FAQ was released early March but became tournament-legal on 17th of March. It's even mentioned on the first page of the FAQ

40 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

Don't want to burst your bubble but I saw this match and Rebel victory was really lucky - Fenn in key turn blanked out on four green dice and get Stunned Pilot critical hit. It set the rest of the game.
It doesn't mean Attanni is overpowered - because in my opinion it is fine card. But this final indicates nothing - given how it played out.

With or withouth that crit, the scum player was already severely behind at that point.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

The FAQ didn't take effect until 17 March. Several major tourneys happened in between using the older FAQ.

Ok, I thought it was the 11th. my bad. So the list then would instead be:

Brazil: Loads of mindlinks, 3 in T8, 2017-04-01
Italy: Mindlink won, not a lot of mindlinks otherwise, 2017-03-26
Hoth System Open 2017: Quite a few mindlinks, 2 in T8, 2017-03-25
Naboo Open 2017: Three mindlinks i T4, 2017-03-19
Tatooine System Open: Lots of mindlink, 3 mindlinks in T4, 2017-03-18
Daventry Regional 2017: Mindlink all over the top lists ,
Fresno Regional March 2017: Mindlink won, 2 in T4
X-Wing Regional 2017 Stockton: Not that much mindlink, Minlink took second and third

I did mess up a bit more and looked at the swiss ranks, so some details are updated as well.

1 minute ago, Ram said:

Ok, I thought it was the 11th. my bad. So the list then would instead be:

Brazil: Loads of mindlinks, 3 in T8, 2017-04-01
Italy: Mindlink won, not a lot of mindlinks otherwise, 2017-03-26
Hoth System Open 2017: Quite a few mindlinks, 2 in T8, 2017-03-25
Naboo Open 2017: Three mindlinks i T4, 2017-03-19
Tatooine System Open: Lots of mindlink, 3 mindlinks in T4, 2017-03-18
Daventry Regional 2017: Mindlink all over the top lists ,
Fresno Regional March 2017: Mindlink won, 2 in T4
X-Wing Regional 2017 Stockton: Not that much mindlink, Minlink took second and third

I did mess up a bit more and looked at the swiss ranks, so some details are updated as well.

Again: what are the ships involved?

The EPT isn't the only issue.

6 minutes ago, Ram said:

Ok, I thought it was the 11th. my bad. So the list then would instead be:

Brazil: Loads of mindlinks, 3 in T8, 2017-04-01
Italy: Mindlink won, not a lot of mindlinks otherwise, 2017-03-26
Hoth System Open 2017: Quite a few mindlinks, 2 in T8, 2017-03-25
Naboo Open 2017: Three mindlinks i T4, 2017-03-19
Tatooine System Open: Lots of mindlink, 3 mindlinks in T4, 2017-03-18
Daventry Regional 2017: Mindlink all over the top lists ,
Fresno Regional March 2017: Mindlink won, 2 in T4
X-Wing Regional 2017 Stockton: Not that much mindlink, Minlink took second and third

I did mess up a bit more and looked at the swiss ranks, so some details are updated as well.

What is the proportion of high-placing mindlinked vs non-mindlinked scum lists? thats the most important piece of information here.

For winners only - the proportion I extracted from all 20+ people tournaments was: 6 non-mindlinked vs 5 mindlinked (so less than 50% winning lists use mindlink).

Among those 5-mindlink lists, 3 lists had either 3 or 2 jumpmasters, so one could argue if the success is based on Mindlink being so powerful, or it's because J5K are just as OP as people say they are.

5 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Again: what are the ships involved?

The EPT isn't the only issue.

I never said that it is, but the thread is about if the mindlink could do with a nerf.

The strength of the elite scum pilots and the CS is a big part. What I oppose with the Mindlink is that it, similar to old palp, it helps you when you are outflown. Like Soontir of old when backed up by old Palp, the upgrade is too much of a crutch for me to like it and it is near uncounterable and brings back the annoying stressbot into the meta. In short, I dont want Fenn to have a focus token for each of my three shots when I manage to line him up after doing GreatStuff(TM).

Mindlink is precisely this - you screw up two of your three ships and aren't punished. Easy mode.

7 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Mindlink is precisely this - you screw up two of your three ships and aren't punished. Easy mode.

You are.

If you screw your Fenn flying, you get 1 focus instead of 2; you cant reliably atack AND make sure you dont die. Loosing a token, that's a punishment in my book. Not as painful as loosing both of them, obviously, but still painful.

They are punished, they don't get the extra action =/.

9 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Mindlink is precisely this - you screw up two of your three ships and aren't punished. Easy mode.

6 minutes ago, Voitek said:

You are.

If you screw your Fenn flying, you get 1 focus instead of 2; you cant reliably atack AND make sure you dont die. Loosing a token, that's a punishment in my book. Not as painful as loosing both of them, obviously, but still painful.

Don't all Aces have the same issue? And to that point, do all Aces have the backing of Mindlink that Fenn has? I think that's more to the question: does Mindlink offer Fenn an advantage that other Aces cannot equal? Thus determining if Minklink is a balanced game mechanic.

19 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Don't all Aces have the same issue? And to that point, do all Aces have the backing of Mindlink that Fenn has? I think that's more to the question: does Mindlink offer Fenn an advantage that other Aces cannot equal? Thus determining if Minklink is a balanced game mechanic.

The way I see it, we should compare mindlink to PTL.

PTL vs Mindlink
- general action eficiency - equal in both cases - 2 actions per turn. 1:1
- action versatility - better for PTL - you can do any two actions, mindlink limits one to focus. but you can do double focus with Mindlink. IMHO Lack of Boost+barrel roll is a game changer here. 2:1 in favour of PTL
- blocking resistance - better for Mindlink as you get your 1 token anyway. 2:2
- stress - PTL gives you stress every time, mindlink only sometimes. but you can get stressed via your wingmates. And getting double stressed is easier against PTL. ummm... 3:3 I think?
- maneuver liberty - PTL forces you to do greens every turn, but mindlink prevents turns with more than 1 red maneuver cross-squad. Point for mindlink if you fly jumps who doesnt need reds, probably equal if you fly with anything else. Lets say 4:3 in favour of mindlink.
- late game power - mindlink is useless. 4:4.
- cost - 1 point for mindlink is a steal. 5:4 in favour of mindlink.

IMHO mindlink is better than PTL, but only a little. Fenn is no less powerful with PTL (and you could argue he is actually better).

Mindlink is a lot like TLT. You get a ton of increasing marginal utility, but that also means that as your squad falls apart, it falls apart quicker.

Looking at TLTs, if you've got 4 of them, assume your primary target can donut hole 1 of them, so now it's getting shot at by 3 ships. If you lose 1 Y-Wing, you're down to 3, and again the target can donut hole 1 of them, so only 2 of them are shooting. Rather than losing 1/4th of your squad you've effectively lost 1/3rd of your fire power.

Mindlink is very similar. Assume 3 ships with Mindlink. You've basically got 5 actions (Focus x3, and then 2 more regular actions). When you lose your first ship you're now down to just 3 actions (Focus x2 and the other ship's action). You just lost 40% of your actions rather than 33%. When you lose your second ship, things get really bad. You now have a ship with no EPT. When Rau is just by himself with Mindlink and no one to feed him he's very weak. If he repositions he's left without a token and he can't safely K-turn. A PtL Rau is weaker in the opening game, but is deadly as a closer.

28 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Don't all Aces have the same issue? And to that point, do all Aces have the backing of Mindlink that Fenn has? I think that's more to the question: does Mindlink offer Fenn an advantage that other Aces cannot equal? Thus determining if Minklink is a balanced game mechanic.

There are advantadges ptl has that an Attani Fenn doesn't get while regular aces do. The obvious one is arc-dodging, you can't BR+boost. Another is that many PtL aces have the evade action, so they can choose to turtle up at range 2, where Attani Fenn is the most squishy. Also the difference between a 4 dice agility ship (Stealth device) ptl durability is equal at range 1 against 1 ship, and much better outside that range, but that goes with the ship rather than the upgrade. He is not exactly your typical ace. It is overall better than PtL Fenn, but he is worse at closing games.

I disagree on being double stressed via Ptl, you can choose to use it. It's more that ships like Assaj can affect your action economy by just being there, but there are not many stress dealers who can be as consistent as assaj at handing stress, and against Attani lists such ships already get 3 stresses for the price of one, limiting maneuvering selection (and against uboats stopping 4k's to be able to torpedo, but it's also that limits Fenn since he can't do 4K or talons either).

32 minutes ago, Voitek said:

The way I see it, we should compare mindlink to PTL.

PTL vs Mindlink
- general action eficiency - equal in both cases - 2 actions per turn. 1:1
- action versatility - better for PTL - you can do any two actions, mindlink limits one to focus. but you can do double focus with Mindlink. IMHO Lack of Boost+barrel roll is a game changer here. 2:1 in favour of PTL
- blocking resistance - better for Mindlink as you get your 1 token anyway. 2:2
- stress - PTL gives you stress every time, mindlink only sometimes. but you can get stressed via your wingmates. And getting double stressed is easier against PTL. ummm... 3:3 I think?
- maneuver liberty - PTL forces you to do greens every turn, but mindlink prevents turns with more than 1 red maneuver cross-squad. Point for mindlink if you fly jumps who doesnt need reds, probably equal if you fly with anything else. Lets say 4:3 in favour of mindlink.
- late game power - mindlink is useless. 4:4.
- cost - 1 point for mindlink is a steal. 5:4 in favour of mindlink.

IMHO mindlink is better than PTL, but only a little. Fenn is no less powerful with PTL (and you could argue he is actually better).

Mindink doesn't cost 1 though, it costs a bare minimum of 1 + another EPT ship +1. Its cost is not something that can really be looked at in isolation.

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

Mindink doesn't cost 1 though, it costs a bare minimum of 1 + another EPT ship +1. Its cost is not something that can really be looked at in isolation.

32 point Mindlink Rau. 68 point initiative bid.

Do it or no balls.

On 4/7/2017 at 5:40 AM, streamdragon said:

So we have 5 actions, provided we're talking about 7 upgrade cards here. AMx3, 2x Unhinged and 2x K4 totaling 11 points, or over 10% of my list. 2 of those actions having nothing to do with AM itself, and taking 4 points and two slots to pull off in the first place.

Not seeing an issue, and definitely not seeing anything needing a nerf.

Please show me anything else in this game that can approach turning 1 action into 5 actions for a mere measly 11 Points (though, Unhinged Astro isn't even required in such a set-up given the great innate greens of the JM5k, you could make a case that it's really only a 9pt combo, and the very efficient Unhinged Astros are just icing on the cake). But since we're really just talking about Mindlink, please find me any 3 point Rebel or Imperial investment that turns 1 Action into 3 Actions as long as anyone gets an action.

Imperials have Hux, who can turn 1 Action into 3 Actions, but he's 5pts and if he gets stressed or block everyone loses. Hell, let's look at Rebels, shall we? Rebel's expensive "action sharing/passing" is supposed to be their thematic schtick, and it's offensively bad in comparison to S&V's Mindlink shennanigans. Garven Dreis and Dutch Vander are expensive EPT-less fighters that exist to turn 1 Action into 2 Actions. Esege, Kyle Katarn, Shara Bey, and Ahsoka allow you to tranfser 1 Action to someone else (net gain of zero). Lando and Cracken give a free action under certain constraints. For all of these abilities you are paying a premium for the pilot to gain or move a single action.

If you think the action-economy and action-passing of Mindlink lists is fairly costed, I question your objectivity. No Rebel or Imp alternatives even get close to approaching the action efficiency and reliability of Mindlink lists, and your "but boo-hoo it costs 11 whole points to turn 1 Action into 5" is ignorant. If I could spend 11 points for a Rebel or Imp list to be all but ensured 5 actions a turn, I'd be all over it. Everyone would. Because Mindlink is undercosted.

2 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Please show me anything else in this game that can approach turning 1 action into 5 actions for a mere measly 11 Points (though, Unhinged Astro isn't even required in such a set-up given the great innate greens of the JM5k, you could make a case that it's really only a 9pt combo, and the very efficient Unhinged Astros are just icing on the cake). But since we're really just talking about Mindlink, please find me any 3 point Rebel or Imperial investment that turns 1 Action into 3 Actions as long as anyone gets an action.

Imperials have Hux, who can turn 1 Action into 3 Actions, but he's 5pts and if he gets stressed or block everyone loses. Hell, let's look at Rebels, shall we? Rebel's expensive "action sharing/passing" is supposed to be their thematic schtick, and it's offensively bad in comparison to S&V's Mindlink shennanigans. Garven Dreis and Dutch Vander are expensive EPT-less fighters that exist to turn 1 Action into 2 Actions. Esege, Kyle Katarn, Shara Bey, and Ahsoka allow you to tranfser 1 Action to someone else (net gain of zero). Lando and Cracken give a free action under certain constraints. For all of these abilities you are paying a premium for the pilot to gain or move a single action.

If you think the action-economy and action-passing of Mindlink lists is fairly costed, I question your objectivity. No Rebel or Imp alternatives even get close to approaching the action efficiency and reliability of Mindlink lists, and your "but boo-hoo it costs 11 whole points to turn 1 Action into 5" is ignorant. If I could spend 11 points for a Rebel or Imp list to be all but ensured 5 actions a turn, I'd be all over it. Everyone would. Because Mindlink is undercosted.

Kyle Katarn (3), BB8 (2), PtL (3). That gives you 4 actions for 8 points.

Shara Bey standing by for the 5th. Pretty savage action economy.

10 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Mindink doesn't cost 1 though, it costs a bare minimum of 1 + another EPT ship +1. Its cost is not something that can really be looked at in isolation.

Sure, but you're bringing other ships in the list anyways . It's not like Mindlink makes you pay for a bunch of ships you wouldn't have brought anyways, so I have to disagree with your "valuation of Mindlink." The cost of Mindlink is 1*X, where X = the number of Mindlink cards. No one is like " ugh, I want to run Mindlink, but crap that means I have to bring more than one ship.... " And it's not like S&V have to even make compromises to only bring ships with EPTs (which would be an expensive burden for someone like Rebels), since S&V ships feature the highest per capita presence of EPTs and they have a generic with an EPT available for most of their ship types.