4 hours ago, The Inquisitor said:

There's more to it than that. I've run firespray and scyks with mindlink and it's really not that awesome because stress is pretty rough to deal with.

The reason parattini worked is the ships in question all have dials full of green and green hard turns in particular. HWKs don't need to turn much, but there aren't many other scum ships that work with it. Mindlink doesn't make G1As better or YVs or whatever.

Yep, it works well because the ships it is put on are way too good. Give them an extra action and they get played a hell of a lot more than an X-wing for good reason. The mind link isn't the problem. It can't make bad ships good, it just makes great ships broken. Hence the manaroo nerf and not the mind link.

7 hours ago, DreadStar said:

Let's compare two 3 list ships, one with attani and another withouth it, the double stress would go into the third ship:

Ship 1 - One action

Ship 2 - One action

Ship 3 - No actions

1-1-0

An attani list would get:

Ship 1 - Focus

Shipt 2 - Focus + one action

Ship 3 - Focus

1-2-1 The focus can be given by either ship 1 or 2, so you are still gaining other of the main benefits of Attani, action flexibility, not to speak that one ship without dice modifier in many situations means disaster.

If there wasn't stress, it would be 1-1-1 vs 1-2-2.

This comparison is very flawed.

You're comparing 3 Attani ships with 3 plain, 1 action per round ships (stuff like that stopped being competitive around wave 3/4) without EPTs. In reality, at least one of the ships will have a way to generate a 2nd action or action equivalent (PtL, Expertise, x7, Adv. SLAM etc). In this case, 1-1-0 actions becomes 2-1-0. If all the ship have such means, it becomes 2-2-0, not that far from Mindlink's 1-2-1, even discounting the fact that at least 2 of the Mindlinked ships need to do greens to get that 1-2-1.

,

17 hours ago, Voitek said:

Hold on, name those lists please?

I did some legwork and analysed all the winning lists since the FAQ, in tournaments with 20+ people (just a random number, nothing special to back it up).

19: Number of tournaments
Victorious scums list:
6: Non-mindlinked Scums
3: Triple- and Double-mindlinked jumps
2: Other mindlinked scums (including parattani), with 0 or 1 jumpmaster.

I will put it in capitals, to break a common myth and misconception:

THERE IS MORE NON-MINDLINKED SCUM LISTS WINNING TOURNAMENTS THAN MINDLINKED.

On top of that: 3/5 of the mindlink lists are containing two or three jumpmasters, and would be OP even without the mindlinks.

Very good summary! I will admit that i am suprised by that. How did you assemble that information? Looking at the rest of the field, how many mindlink list was in there?

1 hour ago, LordBlades said:

This comparison is very flawed.

You're comparing 3 Attani ships with 3 plain, 1 action per round ships (stuff like that stopped being competitive around wave 3/4) without EPTs. In reality, at least one of the ships will have a way to generate a 2nd action or action equivalent (PtL, Expertise, x7, Adv. SLAM etc). In this case, 1-1-0 actions becomes 2-1-0. If all the ship have such means, it becomes 2-2-0, not that far from Mindlink's 1-2-1, even discounting the fact that at least 2 of the Mindlinked ships need to do greens to get that 1-2-1.

Yep, i wouldn't call it flawed but extremely simplified, i am doing this comparison only in an attempt to convey why stress isn't that big of a deal for an attani lists, rather than compare flat action economy, but it can work the other way, people notice it's not that strong once they figure it out that most 3 ship lists have better action economy than a 3 attani list. If you have soontir you are already at the 3-x-y for starters while you retain higher action flexibility and full independance from other ships on your list to do so.

But then again, the point was mostly about stress. Most lists which could have a better economy are easier to shut down through stress than an attani list.

2 hours ago, player346259 said:

It occurs to me that the loudest voices crying to ban Jumpmasters or Mindlinks are people who are not really flying it, who don't understand the ship's downsides and are purely focusing on the benefits.

So here's a question for all the Jump and Mindlink -haters:

Have you actually flown triple Mindlink Jumps against Assaj Ventress? If you would, then you would know that ship is pretty much impossible to kill with your 2 dice primaries when she starts dishing out stress every turn.

How many games have you played when ALL your ships were stressed out every turn, and you had to figure out good moves for them without allowing opponent to double-stress you, or focus fire you?

That stress vulnerability coming with Mindlink and 2 dice primaries are FRIKIN HUGE DEAL.

Really anybody who's saying otherwise is either trolling or just a complete ignorant.

Yes actually (well, two and Fenn, I don't own 3). It's a tough match if you don't manage to nuke her to death with torps.

But it's ONE counter, if your opponent flies it right...

...

3 hours ago, DreadStar said:

But then again, the point was mostly about stress. Most lists which could have a better economy are easier to shut down through stress than an attani list.

Stress works differently on Attani lists than on a regular list. Stressing a ship in a regular list greatly hinders that ship and only that ship. Stressing a ship in an Attani list moderately hinders all ships in the list.

8 hours ago, player346259 said:

A lot of other T1 squads are also quite complicated for triple Jumps to deal with.

- Rebel Regen with Biggs is not an easy matchup (e.g. Heaver or Eide list).

I disagree on this one. You just target lock the regen ship and nuke it with torps while ignoring Biggs.

8 hours ago, player346259 said:

- Aces are not an easy matchup (Scum or Imperial, especially with Autothrusters).

Haven't found this to be overly problematic either. 2 intel agents and 3 barrel rolling large base ships makes it easy to block those aces and take away their actions. Mindlinked fenn is the scariest ace for mindlinked uboats imo, since you can't just deny actions by blocking him and the usual range 1 bonus to kill him easier is less effective when he also gets a bonus die.

8 hours ago, player346259 said:

- Even Defenders are not easy.

X7 worried me before then nerf, but even then I had beat them. Post nerf they really don't scare me. Again with the 3 large base blockers and multiple intel agents.

...

16 minutes ago, player346259 said:

If you manage to fire multiple torpedoes in one turn on opponent's Ace or Regen ship, then something went wrong. Either he misplayed, or you outplayed him. (See the recent Eide top 8 match from Hoth open on the Team Covenant channel for example how can Jumps be destroyed in this matchup by superior maneuvering and positioning skills.)

If you can't get multiple torpedoes set up the first round, you target lock with whoever can and save it while others TL after. Just shoot at Biggs with primaries while setting up the locks.

16 minutes ago, player346259 said:

X7 was weakened a lot for sure, but nowadays you usually see them mixed up with other type of ships/aces (Quickdraw, Omega Leader, etc). And Tie/SFs and TIE/FO are much less vulnerable to blocking than the traditional aces.

How are FOs not vulnerable to blocking? SFs can at least get fcs, maybe expertise, for attacking, but it doesn't help them any for defense. One of my vassal league matches with triple jumps (in core worlds, so good players) was against QuickDraw ryad and pure sabacc. Another was against Kylo/omega leader/Inquisitor

16 minutes ago, player346259 said:

And the recent Brazilian nationals were won by Palp Aces, in the field full of Jumpmasters, from what I have heard.

Haven't looked into that one.

16 minutes ago, player346259 said:

So overall I would say the scouts are very closely matched against these top lists, and the games can easily go either way, depending on how the players fly it.

With the possible exception of the Mindlink Protectorates, which should murderize Jumpmasters quite decisively. And of course Parattanni, which should also demolish scouts quite easily.

I flew against old fennaroo at my regional and smashed it. I lost to paratanni, but even that isn't "demolished quite easily". I traded one scout for manaroo and had fenn at half health and asajj down a hull at the time. Then I flew rather less well the rest of the game (combined with some lucky rolls by my opponent. Rerolling his single evade into another evade with zuckuss when a blank or eyeball would have killed him. Screwing up a block attempt on fenn that left me directly in front of him at range 1 instead of blocking him, resulting in a dead bumpmaster instead of a possibly dead fenn. Lining up a torpedo shot for the wrong ship - the one that didn't have any left). I could have won the match with better flying.

16 minutes ago, player346259 said:

So in no way is triple Jumpmaster any kind of "dominating" list. And in other Mindlink squads, Jumpmasters are usually delegated to support roles..

I'm not saying it's dominating. Just that my experiences with it are rather different from what you were describing

...

15 minutes ago, player346259 said:

Yeah, well my point was that the matchups for triple jumps are (quote) "not easy". They are not too bad in general, but also not great. It's a solid squad with solid ships, so with great play it can win for sure. But you need to deserve that win.

And TIE/FOs with Comm Relay are less vulnerable to blocking, because they can have their evade banked from previous turn. And no stress means very open dial. And Omega Leader ability on top of that means that if you block her, there is probably just one ship which can meaningfully fire at her (assuming the other one is locked and can't modify dice).

Comm relay works once. Then if you keep blocking, they have no tokens after that. And OL really hasn't been scary. Either he gets blown up by non-locked ships or you block with the locked one so the others get fully modded shots

The stress part of mindlink is what balances it out. There are many ways to gain multiple actions in this game, mindlink is by far not the strongest due to that stress. Stress bots aside, you get to play one red maneuver across your list per round. That right there is a huge limitation. The Jumpmaster has been nerfed down from broken to good. Maybe it still isn't par but at least is isn't broken anymore. It's the Old Fen Mindlink lists that are giving people problems but mindlink isn't the problem in those lists.

FFG just needs to say "our bad" and fix the JM5K instead of all these other cards that aren't the problem. Make new pilot cards with a higher point cost or a new dial with the left turns white, left sloop red, right turns red and no right sloop. Make an online order form where you order the new cards/dial and just pay shipping then ban the old ones.

2 hours ago, MenaceNsobriety said:

FFG just needs to say "our bad" and fix the JM5K instead of all these other cards that aren't the problem. Make new pilot cards with a higher point cost or a new dial with the left turns white, left sloop red, right turns red and no right sloop. Make an online order form where you order the new cards/dial and just pay shipping then ban the old ones.

That's not a solution. All you're asking for is a very upset customer base and NPE, especially for those individuals whom have more than 1 of the model kits; you are suggesting taking a thirty dollar ship and making it worthless, and most people have at least 2 if not 3 of them; the jumpmaster is the backbone of the Scum faction the design was overdone undoubtly but trying to remove it, readjust point values is not the answer. The ship has seen 4 different errats effect the ship the latest being (Manaroo a pilot) ~

They are not going to say our bad; without the JM5K you lose have the list made for both casual and competitive play; and how do you suggest they track all the orders? proof of purchase, okay I'm sure everyone has those, oh wait the honor system. Mindlink doesn't need an errata, and the Jumpmaster doesn't either and this is from someone who doesn't own a single Scum ship

41 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

That's not a solution. All you're asking for is a very upset customer base and NPE, especially for those individuals whom have more than 1 of the model kits; you are suggesting taking a thirty dollar ship and making it worthless, and most people have at least 2 if not 3 of them; the jumpmaster is the backbone of the Scum faction the design was overdone undoubtly but trying to remove it, readjust point values is not the answer. The ship has seen 4 different errats effect the ship the latest being (Manaroo a pilot) ~

They are not going to say our bad; without the JM5K you lose have the list made for both casual and competitive play; and how do you suggest they track all the orders? proof of purchase, okay I'm sure everyone has those, oh wait the honor system. Mindlink doesn't need an errata, and the Jumpmaster doesn't either and this is from someone who doesn't own a single Scum ship

The biggest reason I suggested this is because the Jumpmasters are SO much better than anything in the same price range it will distort the whole faction going forward. If they make a good ship that is priced correctly then it will hardly be used because of the JM5K. I don't have anything against the ship itself or mindlink. In fact I love Mindlink on my G1-A swarm list and would be sad if it got hit.

4 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

If you can't get multiple torpedoes set up the first round, you target lock with whoever can and save it while others TL after. Just shoot at Biggs with primaries while setting up the locks.

How are FOs not vulnerable to blocking? SFs can at least get fcs, maybe expertise, for attacking, but it doesn't help them any for defense. One of my vassal league matches with triple jumps (in core worlds, so good players) was against QuickDraw ryad and pure sabacc. Another was against Kylo/omega leader/Inquisitor

Haven't looked into that one.

I flew against old fennaroo at my regional and smashed it. I lost to paratanni, but even that isn't "demolished quite easily". I traded one scout for manaroo and had fenn at half health and asajj down a hull at the time. Then I flew rather less well the rest of the game (combined with some lucky rolls by my opponent. Rerolling his single evade into another evade with zuckuss when a blank or eyeball would have killed him. Screwing up a block attempt on fenn that left me directly in front of him at range 1 instead of blocking him, resulting in a dead bumpmaster instead of a possibly dead fenn. Lining up a torpedo shot for the wrong ship - the one that didn't have any left). I could have won the match with better flying.

I'm not saying it's dominating. Just that my experiences with it are rather different from what you were describing

So, what you are saying is that it's not Mindlink but Scouts?

Yeah, the draw back to mindlink is the stress and many ships needing to make a red maneuver. The jumpmaster dial is broken. It doesn't need to make red maneuvers ever. It has some pretty good green maneuvers to boot, so it can handle the stress bots. Other mindlink lists fall apart due to the stress mechanic of the card.

I also don't think FFG can or should change the dial at this point. It is simply way to messy a process. They could remove the ept slot from the contracted scout. This would solve a few of the big problems while not 'fixing' what isn't actually broken.

Shadowcaster dial is too good too. Hardly any reds and loads of greens.

27 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Shadowcaster dial is too good too. Hardly any reds and loads of greens.

Shadowcaster dial is full of 3 greens. If you stress the list, the shadowcaster will be either losing his action, or flying far away.

A 3 turn with a side arc and a fat base definitely isn't 'far away'.

Side arc that potentially requires an action to set up. An action that they aren't taking if they have to be the ship to Focus.

As someone who flies a shadowcaster a lot, I can tell you that it is not difficult to avoid having to take rotate arc actions.

5 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Shadowcaster dial is too good too. Hardly any reds and loads of greens.

When did having green turns become too good? The Lancer is suppose to be a high speed persuit vessel. It makes sense that it can perform fast maneuvers easily.