To give my opinion on the thread: I wouldn't be opposed to leashing mind link to range 1-3. It's not perfect, but it at least prevents one ship from flying off to the other side of the board and passing focus tokens to whoever's still in the fight

2 hours ago, Kdubb said:

You don't see ML Kath, scyk swarms, and the like, because there are better mindlink options than that. Heck, there are better options even if Mindlink isn't available

Kind of my point. The question is "does mindlink need a nerf?" The only reason the question is even being asked is parattani and its ilk, and that list says more about the modern era's chassis and dials; less about the stregnth of mindlink... hence the post nerf solution of not seeking another synergy, but just throwing another toilet seat on the fire.

2 hours ago, Kdubb said:

Stress is not the counter to Mindlink like many seem to believe. In fact, Mindlink squads are often more resilient to stress than other squads.

Correct. It is not a counter, and the focus train will always chug along. But again, with parattani, you have ships with evasive greens for days, and it speaks more to the the stregnth of the ships rather than mindlink. Yes, it obviously is great for action economy, but it does force you to fly different when stress is ever present.

2 hours ago, Kdubb said:

And the comparisons between an action passing Tie Shuttle and Mindlink begin and end with the word action.

And that's all that I'm comparing, point cost vs. Actions given. in a three ship build, you're losing one focus, gaining two possibly open dials and epts for the same 3 points. With cool hand, you have one extra point and the same amount of actions. Am i saying fleet officer is better than mindlink? Naw. Does it mean mindlink needs a nerf? Naw.

2 hours ago, Kdubb said:

That bomber also melts in one to three rounds of combat, whereas the best mindlink squads have extremely sturdy or dodgy ships, allowing the mindlink synergy to last many rounds longer than it reasonably should.

Opportunity cost again. If you're focusing my support ship, i have a baby biggs buffer, then when you burn it down, i have two hopefully independent ships. Whereas if you take 1 of 3 out of a mindlink list, you just have an extra eyeball. Its nice. But still not needing a nerf.

Why a contracted scout even HAS an EPT slot in the first place is a mystery to me

7 minutes ago, Tom1132 said:

Why a contracted scout even HAS an EPT slot in the first place is a mystery to me

To you,to me, and to everyone else not flying them.

...........or perhaps, Nerf needs a Mindlink.

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

...........or perhaps, Nerf needs a Mindlink.

If Nerf had a Mindlink... does that mean when one thing gets nerfed, everything else does too?

This might be the very thing that kills all the 'X needs nerfed' threads!

Guys...

BIGGS is the Rebels' "Nerf equipped with Mindlink"

1 hour ago, Tom1132 said:

Why a contracted scout even HAS an EPT slot in the first place is a mystery to me

I think the failure of past big based generics, the Outerrim Smuggler being the main example, I think FFG went a little overboard to ensure the Contracted Scout was useful.

No, mind link doesn't need a nerf.

Stress against an ML list doesn't just shut one ship down, it shuts them all down. Rebels can run plenty of stress and Imps can run their fair share.

I will agree though, the CScout shouldn't have had an EPT.

15 minutes ago, boomaster said:

No, mind link doesn't need a nerf.

Stress against an ML list doesn't just shut one ship down, it shuts them all down. Rebels can run plenty of stress and Imps can run their fair share.

I will agree though, the CScout shouldn't have had an EPT.

Stress doesnt' shut down the entire list. It limits their movement options if they want to all get actions, but realistically you only need 1 ship to get an action to give them all focus tokens anyway. Stress DOES help againty mindlink lists, but it doesn't entirely shut them down.

19 minutes ago, boomaster said:

No, mind link doesn't need a nerf.

Stress against an ML list doesn't just shut one ship down, it shuts them all down. Rebels can run plenty of stress and Imps can run their fair share.

I have to assume you haven't actually played against Mindlink lists? They really don't care about stress as much as 'standard' lists without ML do. Perhaps it's not intuitive, but a ML list is a lot less scared of a Stresshog than an Imperial Ace list or a Rebel list (without Biggs).

The reason is because when all the Mindlink ships get stressed, they all still get their Focus tokens as long as only one of the ML ships clears stress and gets an action. So unless you can somehow double-stress or block all the ships in a ML list, everyone gets their Focus. It's also worth noting that ships with ML tend to have some of the best Green Options in the game anways (JM5k, Lancer, and Protectorate), and can often have even easier access to Greens (Unhinged Astro) or more free tokens for going green (K4 Security Droid). In a CS+CS+Fenn list, even if two of the ships have multiple stress tokens tokens you can still easily get 5 "actions" (F, F, F, TL, TL) if the JMs have Unhinged and K4.

I mean, try not to so simplistically dismiss stuff. Like, trust me, if all you needed to "shut down" a ML list was a stress-dealer, I assure you the competitive community would have already figured that out and jumped on it.

16 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I have to assume you haven't actually played against Mindlink lists? They really don't care about stress as much as 'standard' lists without ML do. Perhaps it's not intuitive, but a ML list is a lot less scared of a Stresshog than an Imperial Ace list or a Rebel list (without Biggs).

The reason is because when all the Mindlink ships get stressed, they all still get their Focus tokens as long as only one of the ML ships clears stress and gets an action. So unless you can somehow double-stress or block all the ships in a ML list, everyone gets their Focus. It's also worth noting that ships with ML tend to have some of the best Green Options in the game anways (JM5k, Lancer, and Protectorate), and can often have even easier access to Greens (Unhinged Astro) or more free tokens for going green (K4 Security Droid). In a CS+CS+Fenn list, even if two of the ships have multiple stress tokens tokens you can still easily get 5 "actions" (F, F, F, TL, TL) if the JMs have Unhinged and K4.

I mean, try not to so simplistically dismiss stuff. Like, trust me, if all you needed to "shut down" a ML list was a stress-dealer, I assure you the competitive community would have already figured that out and jumped on it.

So and I'll try to chose my words carefully so as to sound less condescending.

Is the problem actually with Attani Mind Link or is the problem with the ships Scum have that can take it and the relative quantity of "green" they have on their dials? I'm not seeing Mind Link Khirax swarms or hordes of Lightweight Sycks with Mindlink. It's JM's, Lancers and Protectorates (in varying quantities). Would nerfing ML fix this problem or... perhaps, have FFG been guilty of under costing and over speccing the relative combat power of the Jump Master (in particular) with an EPT, Crew and Mech slot on a ship with only 2 red moves on its dial?

I don't think mind link itself needs a nerf, just as Dead Eye didn't require a nerf from Wave 1 until the U-boats appeared...

I play Khiraxz and Scyk quite often, Attanni is the best EPT for them too. I know this is hardly scientific, but if I was playing to win I'd take Protectorate instead. It isn't just the ships, it is that for 3 or 4 points out of 100 AM churns so many free focus it is the most efficient EPT available.

I don’t think it needs a nerf though. I'd rather see more stress and ion control encouraged.

27 minutes ago, FlipmodeSH said:

I play Khiraxz and Scyk quite often, Attanni is the best EPT for them too. I know this is hardly scientific, but if I was playing to win I'd take Protectorate instead. It isn't just the ships, it is that for 3 or 4 points out of 100 AM churns so many free focus it is the most efficient EPT available.

I don’t think it needs a nerf though. I'd rather see more stress and ion control encouraged.

I would be delighted if that did enough to put mindlink in a big enough bind that other elites saw use, but it would take some really powerful stress and ion mechanics to bother them, and there is a strong chance that those type of cards would be even stronger against other lists.

7 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I have to assume you haven't actually played against Mindlink lists? They really don't care about stress as much as 'standard' lists without ML do. Perhaps it's not intuitive, but a ML list is a lot less scared of a Stresshog than an Imperial Ace list or a Rebel list (without Biggs).

The reason is because when all the Mindlink ships get stressed, they all still get their Focus tokens as long as only one of the ML ships clears stress and gets an action. So unless you can somehow double-stress or block all the ships in a ML list, everyone gets their Focus. It's also worth noting that ships with ML tend to have some of the best Green Options in the game anways (JM5k, Lancer, and Protectorate), and can often have even easier access to Greens (Unhinged Astro) or more free tokens for going green (K4 Security Droid). In a CS+CS+Fenn list, even if two of the ships have multiple stress tokens tokens you can still easily get 5 "actions" (F, F, F, TL, TL) if the JMs have Unhinged and K4.

I mean, try not to so simplistically dismiss stuff. Like, trust me, if all you needed to "shut down" a ML list was a stress-dealer, I assure you the competitive community would have already figured that out and jumped on it.

While I do agree with all your points, I think it is worth noting that while a stress might not be a problem, more stress can start to really matter. Look at Paul Heaver's System Open win on YouTube and tell me the stresshog wasn't relevant.

Once you get multiple stress tokens on the best mindlink ships, they drop way down in efficiency. Fenn without boost, barrel roll, or TL isn't that bad. Scouts (without K4) just become sitting ducks. Asajj is the most resilient because she can just bug out or get built in evades, but even then at least she can't move the arc.

But there are a number of ways to deal multiple stress to a mindlink list that are worth considering if you've got a mindlink problem:

- Thermal Detonators: catch 2+ Attanies in the blast and everyone after the first ship gets 2 stress.

- Stresshog: assuming a 3 Attani list, 4 stress a turn sounds pretty good

- Braylen/Gunner/Stressbot: built-in optional modifiers from the title to synergize with gunner, the double arcs, and the hope of taking actions beyond the first engagement make him worth the upgrade.

- Nien Nunb/Snap Shot/Stressbot: much more situational double stress dealer, but with his range management, higher PS, toughness, and pre-action interrupt stress mechanic makes him the most flexible stresshog. I like Primed Thrusters here too.

Ghost/Phantom/Tactician/TLT: don't get caught at range 2 in either arc or it's double stress. Still a seat for Finn, Rey, Hera, or Ezra (just to rub it in their face).

Chopper: works like thermal detonators. If you ever get double blocked, it's x+1 stress tokens. Have him pilot the build above and you've got a real stress monster!

Rebel Captive: *Edit* Every ship in the link gets stressed. Also shuts off Expertise which is a nice bonus

Mara Jade : Everyone in range one gets double stressed, except the first. Add on Kylo Ren's Shuttle to double stress everyone at range 1, and extend your single stress range to 2.

Flechette Cannon: Not an amazing gun, but perhaps on a heavy scyck in its own Attani squad, as a mirror match counter?

All I'm saying is there are ways Attani Mindlink can be meta-corrected long before a nerf is required.

6 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Rebel Captive: First ship firing gets one, everyone else 2. Also shuts off Expertise which is a nice bonus

Only stresses the first ship to shoot at it, not all of them. So everyone gets 1 stress from whoever shoots first, the rest don't get any more.

6 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Flechette Cannon: Not an amazing gun, but perhaps on a heavy scyck in its own Attani squad, as a mirror match counter?

Also can't multi-stress (only applies stress if the target doesn't already have one).

33 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Only stresses the first ship to shoot at it, not all of them. So everyone gets 1 stress from whoever shoots first, the rest don't get any more.

Also can't multi-stress (only applies stress if the target doesn't already have one).

Ah good catch on the first. The second wasn't so much for multi-stress, just a little used upgrade that might be worth considering.

12 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

The reason is because when all the Mindlink ships get stressed, they all still get their Focus tokens as long as only one of the ML ships clears stress and gets an action. So unless you can somehow double-stress or block all the ships in a ML list, everyone gets their Focus. It's also worth noting that ships with ML tend to have some of the best Green Options in the game anways (JM5k, Lancer, and Protectorate), and can often have even easier access to Greens (Unhinged Astro) or more free tokens for going green (K4 Security Droid). In a CS+CS+Fenn list, even if two of the ships have multiple stress tokens tokens you can still easily get 5 "actions" (F, F, F, TL, TL) if the JMs have Unhinged and K4.

So we have 5 actions, provided we're talking about 7 upgrade cards here. AMx3, 2x Unhinged and 2x K4 totaling 11 points, or over 10% of my list. 2 of those actions having nothing to do with AM itself, and taking 4 points and two slots to pull off in the first place.

Not seeing an issue, and definitely not seeing anything needing a nerf.

Sekac, you do realise you posted was basically a list of awful/joke builds and a couple of good ones.

Can anyone confirm if Mara Jade double stresses Mindlink, though? AFAIK she doesn't. Has that changed in the recent FAQ?

I would think so, provided you have multiple ships in range.

The first would get a stress for being in range of Mara, and thus pass a stress through the Mind Link.

The second and further ships would then get their stress for being in range of Mara Jade.

1 minute ago, streamdragon said:

I would think so, provided you have multiple ships in range.

The first would get a stress for being in range of Mara, and thus pass a stress through the Mind Link.

The second and further ships would then get their stress for being in range of Mara Jade.

Except Mara only works on unstressed ships, and nothing in x-wing is simultaneous. Mara would stress one ship, stress would be passed to all the rest, then she'd check any other ships in range for stress, find no unstressed ships left, and stop working.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

Except Mara only works on unstressed ships , and nothing in x-wing is simultaneous. Mara would stress one ship, stress would be passed to all the rest, then she'd check any other ships in range for stress, find no unstressed ships left, and stop working.

Doh! Forgot about that. You're right, it wouldn't double stress them.

So basically his list of 'lots of ways of double stressing things' was a list of 'things that don't work'.

Indeed. Snap/Stress, Stresshog, Stress Braylen, Ghost/Phantom/Tactician, and Thermal Detonators are the only ones that can double stress Mindlink at all.

And of those, only Thermal Detonators can easily double stress more than one ship from a cold start (i.e. from all ships having no stress).

The one I'm now wondering about is an ARC with Snap Shot and Stressbot and Gunner. That has the potential to double stress more than one ship, which is interesting. Getting caught at range 1 in arc by one of the EPT ARCs seems reasonably easy to avoid though.

The bottom line is that yes, Mindlink needs a (small) nerf and it should only share tokens to unstressed ships.

This sounds like a huge change but is actually quite a subtle nerf. Take Paratanni, for example... Manaroo and Asajj weren't doing red moves anyway so they're not a problem, and by the time Fenn thinks about maybe doing a T-Roll he's already got focus. The in situations where you got stressed in combat or something it just means that Fenn has to be the Focus junky for your team after Manaroo and Asajj do their greens to destress.

So it doesn't annihilate Mindlink at all, but it means that after they become stressed there's a weakpoint to exploit (you know Fenn is the focus monkey).