2 hours ago, pt106 said:

Pretty close. I ran Wave 5 data for Top-4 regional fleets and got the following (this doesn't take into account any upgrades on flotillas as I had no way to get it from available data)

Points spent on Squads : Avg 87.93, 5% 0 or less, 25% 55 or less, 50% 106 or less, 75% 130 or less 95% 134 or less
Points spent on Flotillas : Avg 36.73, 5% 0 or less, 25% 23 or less, 50% 36 or less, 75% 54 or less 95% 69 or less
Bids : Avg 5.068, 5% 0 or less, 25% 0 or less, 50% 2 or less, 75% 9 or less 95% 15 or less
Admiral point cost : Avg 28.1, 5% 20 or less, 25% 24 or less, 50% 30 or less, 75% 30 or less 95% 38 or less
Points spent on non-flotilla ships : Avg 242.2, 5% 175 or less, 25% 201 or less, 50% 234 or less, 75% 278 or less 95% 319 or less
Avg number of non-flotilla ships : Avg 2.661, 5% 1 or less, 25% 2 or less, 50% 3 or less, 75% 3 or less 95% 4 or less
Avg points spent on a non-flotilla ship : Avg 100.0, 5% 64 or less, 25% 77 or less, 50% 90 or less, 75% 109 or less 95% 173 or less

Speculative assumption: maybe the potential problem is not flotillas per se, but the ability to run (and activate) a 100+ points of squadrons while maintaining 5+ activations and keeping support ships safe?

With the decline of the medium carriers for each faction as well this I think hints at a very real issue.

5 hours ago, pt106 said:

the ability to run (and activate) a 100+ points of squadrons while maintaining 5+ activations and keeping support ships safe?

Is that actually an issue? Or just a change?

Its a huge reduction of risk, huge reduction of loss margin, significant increase in the chances of a flotilla making it to turn 6 making tabling much harder.

Squadron firepower has increased tremendously with unique-generics, double stacking BCC (as opposed to wave2, when Firesprays plus rhymer without BCC were considered possibly OP), they ahve the highest dice-modification potential in the game, considered action economy in xwing, is considered the most powerful tenet of xwing.

Maintaining 5 activations is premier level Armada consideration. Its one of the best things one can do with a fleet. As people ahve said, 5 activations is almost mandatory. Activation control is considered THE most powerful mechanic of Armada.

Are you capable of asserting to the contrary? This might be one of those questions that is best left for you to counter on your own.
Are you capable of offering contrary opinion where the true gravity of these strengths are discussed to their full potential?

---

People who see both sides offer counter points to their own opinion. And not as fake strengthening acts to instead bolster their point (a la win at all costs high school debate). No, real counterpoints.
I've done so on my previous discussions on squadrons. But its time this should be the standard of discussion. There is a difference between a debate and a discussion. This is poorly explained in Western culture and education in the last 65 years.

I dont disagree with those statements particularly.

I just suggest we contrast them with the Demolisher days where losing the bid meant game over. Squadron lists could not compete on activations and a single black dice ship could walk all over an entire fleet in six turns.

None of your conclusions seem like an issue to me, they seem like a fix.

To put it a better way.

Currently, you Blail, say your meta is overloaded with squadrons.

Caldius has recently said his meta is high activation Demo or Admo losts.

Darth Sanguis is saying his meta is flotilla light.

And this is wonderful, maybe not for the individuals, but definitely for the game. The game has found 3 very contrasting stable states in 3 different places.

I see that as the biggest sign of health possible.

1 minute ago, Ginkapo said:

To put it a better way.

Currently, you Blail, say your meta is overloaded with squadrons.

Caldius has recently said his meta is high activation Demo or Admo losts.

Darth Sanguis is saying his meta is flotilla light.

And this is wonderful, maybe not for the individuals, but definitely for the game. The game has found 3 very contrasting stable states in 3 different places.

I see that as the biggest sign of health possible.

The list I keep griping about is a Pelta, a Neb and THREE FLOTILLAs. The pelta and the neb have literally zero attack upgrades.

I have 3 of both flotillas.

Our meta is overloaded with squadrons AND flotillas. Most games involve 4 flotillas: 2 on each side. Currently, the squadron players and myself tend to push it to 3 sometimes.
Also Demolisher is huge here.
We simply follow the harshest of meta: 5+ activations required, MSU, mass squadrons, Demolisher, Rhymer. Squadrons are mathematically the best firepower in the game (preferably with 2 BCC and Toryn). MC30s are likely next. I would be playing more MC30 but I don't ahve four. And I'm frankly tired of having to buy crap tons of repeats of the best boats. 4 mc30s, 3 transports 3 gozantis

--

There's a logical allowance of two different states: A meta being overloaded with one thing doesn't preclude it being overloaded with other things.
Secondly: a Game that is healthy couldn't be healthier. -> Example: xwing actually was at one of its most diverse and healthy states at the time of the Great Nerfing. Wave4 had only 4 literal tier1 lists. Wave6 every single tier 1 list included a large ship, nearly 70% of the lists were 2 ships. (distribution between 2 and 7). Game balance is art: You can always make it better, and if you can logically deduce reasons for that change, it means it is likely safe to do so.

Anyway, I think we are making this not about the OP anymore.

I for one think flotillas are fun and only cost 36-50 ish points to the typical list. Its not that hefty of a tax to pay. 40 points for 2 Transports with Comms Net. As opposed to 90 points for a 6+ AA-fighter screen that largely promotes rock paper scissors list building.

I think if they made it so that you could only put commanders on a flotilla if there are only flotillas in the list, that would make the game more interesting.

I don't see a big difference putting Screed on Demo rather on one flotilla in my DeMSU fleet. Yes, now you could kill my commander if you catch Demo but as activation game is what keeps my ships alive I am pretty sure nothing will change.

Maybe it is this way due to imperial commander idiosyncrasy.

Well its great to see pretty much the entire community including some of the most respected people getting involved in this discussion.

Personally I don't have a strong opinion. I'm enjoying the game fine at present, although I acknowledge that less than 5 activations is very hard to play competitively against someone who knows what they are doing.

But I wouldn't be averse to seeing a pass rule or something similar trialled. They could easily do it for a tourney season and see what the effect was.

If we really want to change the usage of Flotillas and that is what this conversation breaks down to, a possible solution would be to make them Squadron Command zero and only allow BCC to be used once per attack, so no stacking, sure, you can bring them for activation still and you can lifeboat, but this would push them into truly being a support ship, that is, they need to be close to the fleet and they are usable only for buffing those ships/squadrons, not actually controlling them. You may also then see a resurgence in the medium size ships to fulfil the carrier role. It would also go a long way to stopping the Quaser being dead on arrival.

Just a thought.

4 minutes ago, Englishpete said:

If we really want to change the usage of Flotillas and that is what this conversation breaks down to, a possible solution would be to make them Squadron Command zero and only allow BCC to be used once per attack, so no stacking, sure, you can bring them for activation still and you can lifeboat, but this would push them into truly being a support ship, that is, they need to be close to the fleet and they are usable only for buffing those ships/squadrons, not actually controlling them. You may also then see a resurgence in the medium size ships to fulfil the carrier role. It would also go a long way to stopping the Quaser being dead on arrival.

Just a thought.

Why would the Quasar be dead on arrival? And why should we make them squadron zero? They'll have no actual role in fleets then. I'll also argue that the ability to push 4 squadrons a turn keeps the Pelta in conversation, and there's no reason the Quasar won't be similar.

5 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Squadron firepower has increased tremendously with unique-generics, double stacking BCC (as opposed to wave2, when Firesprays plus rhymer without BCC were considered possibly OP), they ahve the highest dice-modification potential in the game, considered action economy in xwing, is considered the most powerful tenet of xwing

I disagree with this. Gold, Green, Rogue, and Dagger for Rebels. Saber, Black, Tempest, and Gamma for Imps. And you can only take 1 of each. Where is the massive increase in power?

Of the 8 of them, Gold is the clear winner. Double blue, no Heavy, and +1 point cost.

All 4 Rebels can be modified by BCC and Toryn. Where as the 3 of the 4 generics can be modified by BCC and Toryn. 1 A-Wing with bomber is hardly a tremendous increase in firepower.

Saber has Snipe which is cool, but it's the only Snipe for Imps.

Black has Escort on 3 hull. #instakill

Tempest also has bomber, so that puts it in the same category as Green.

Gamma dropped Heavy.

18 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Why would the Quasar be dead on arrival? And why should we make them squadron zero? They'll have no actual role in fleets then. I'll also argue that the ability to push 4 squadrons a turn keeps the Pelta in conversation, and there's no reason the Quasar won't be similar.

Well, the Quaser will almost certainly cost more than 2 Flotillas and therefore the ability for it to push four squadrons is really not that appealing above fielding 2 ships that add many other advantages, not least of which is activations and the ability to push 4 squadrons via Relay.

The idea that you see no role for flotillas other than pushing squadrons is exactly what is wrong, what about all the other support options they are supposed to be used for, like repair crews, slicer tools etc?

17 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Black has Escort on 3 hull. #instakill

*cough cough* Jamming fields *cough cough*

lol not actually making a point, I just love to make people shoot twice at black lol

5 minutes ago, Englishpete said:

Well, the Quaser will almost certainly cost more than 2 Flotillas and therefore the ability for it to push four squadrons is really not that appealing above fielding 2 ships that add many other advantages, not least of which is activations and the ability to push 4 squadrons via Relay.

The idea that you see no role for flotillas other than pushing squadrons is exactly what is wrong, what about all the other support options they are supposed to be used for, like repair crews, slicer tools etc?

Because relay costs another flotilla almost in points? And because pushing four basic TIEs is better than pushing 2 of them, especially if you don't need BCC with a basic TIE.

Also Repair Crews isn't good, but I'll see your point about slicer tools or comms net.

1 minute ago, geek19 said:

Also Repair Crews isn't good

I would contest this.... On my dual ISD fleet they've kept ISDs alive many times.... which... at 120 points plus upgrades each is pretty darn handy if you ask me lol

1 gr75 with 2 ywings. Average damage is 2. Points per damage is 18.99.

1 gr75 BCC with 2 ywings. Average damage is 2.5. Points per damage is 18.40.

2 gr75s BCC with 4 ywings. Average damage is 5.5. Points per damage is 16.73.

A 2 red dice salvo from a trc equipped cr90a. Average damage around 3. Which equals 17pts per damage.

These numbers are only for specific circumstances. No relay is included. A TRC Corvette is still unrivalled for damage.

Note, squadrons naturally overload defence tokens.

33 minutes ago, Englishpete said:

It would also go a long way to stopping the Quaser being dead on arrival.

Ok, I've been keeping quiet, but I've had enough. I'm sorry, but this is just ridiculously hyperbolic. If you think the Quasar will be DOA, you're not even trying to think of other ways to build fleets. Here's what you know: it's Squadron 4, has at least one offensive retrofit, and at least one weapons team. It is therefore guaranteed to add a minimum of 5 blue dice to the squad fight every turn. That's a whole additional squadron worth of dice. This thing will absolutely have a place in Imperial builds. Hell, I wish my Rebel could have access to it.

On flotillas as a whole, if you don't like them, don't play with them. I've never cared for them in Imperial builds for thematic reasons, so they rarely show up in mine. And guess what? I win just fine without them. I make up for it in other ways, such as spewing Vader red dice like a fat man with food poisoning. Ask @moodswing5537 or @miferr about how our CC campaign went. I never used a flotilla and I only lost to @JJs Juggernaut (against whom our team went 1-3 and the only win was a base defense. I was calling him the Young Wolf by the half way point because we were winning the campaign, but we couldn't seem to beat HIM)

Do I lose because of activation disadvantage? Sure. More often than not, though, I end up losing because I made a mistake, not because of the almighty activation advantage. My point is, there are ways around activation advantage if you actually try to play the game in a different way. If you dismiss things out of hand like this, of course the game is going to feel stale.

Basically everyone must hate me. I abuse everything that so many are complaining about.
Flotilla, Relay, squadrons, Jen-le (Jendon + Stele). .

But statistics (i love them, you can interpret so much into some numbers .

• All Nebulons are always Yavaris (at least on the last Worlds). Does this mean the Yavaris is so good, or the Nebulon is so bad? So it means the titel is an auto include if you have a nebulon.
• Nearly every List with at least one GSD has the titel Demolisher. But no one is complaining that the Demolisher is so broken and OP anymore . And why? One reason for this are the flotilla. But, in some way, the titel is an auto include if you have the GSD.
• If imperials have bombers, they have as well a Rhymer (nearly every list). And again, this might mean that rhymer is an auto include for every list.

Now you can say that not all lists satisfy these statements. But the same count for the statement that flotilla are auto include in all lists.
If you want to win, you might have to include 1-3 flotilla in your list. Same as you have to include the demolisher titel when you fly a GSD.
There will be counter who will make flotilla less played again. Like there was a counter for the Demolisher. Or the player will adapt and lern how to handle the flotilla (good player will at least). There are more than enough counters for these. But suddenly you have use them, and include them in your lists.

Basically the same with squadrons. If you dont have anything against squadrons in your fleet, you will lose way to often. So you NEED anti squadron cards in your fleet.
And i dont hear anyone complaining about this (anymore).
It is the same with flotillas. You KNOW that there will be 1-3 in the opponents list. Do something against this. There is nothing better than to know what the opponent is placing.

And one counter, that most didnt even think about are Jen-le. i would even say they are (or should be) the same auto include factor as the flotilla. 41 points that can hunt down flotilla (4 attacks = 2 rounds) or even take down CR90/Raider on their own and on top have a extreme strong anti squadron value. Wait until every single imperial list will have these two.

1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

Of the 8 of them, Gold is the clear winner. Double blue, no Heavy, and +1 point cost.

Just to mention. Gold is +2 in cost. The only one of the 8 (and fully worth the +2).

But yes, they are all unique. So they cannot really break the squadron game. And their new keyword does, as you said, not change this much.

all these discussions on the flottillas make me feel like a bad person

30 minutes ago, Tokra said:

There are more than enough counters for these. But suddenly you have use them, and include them in your lists.

So, certainly there are some who just need to learn this lesson, but I think most of the guys here who disagree with you (and me) are not upset that there is no way to kill flotillas, but rather that there is no way to kill them quick and effectively.

Here's the thing with activation advantage that I haven't seen anybody bring up yet, and it's a reasonable complaint: it stops mattering after turn 3. This isn't universal by any means, but the value of an activation delay plummets after the battle is joined. Certainly there are tactical situations in which it's critically useful to delay an activation or two, but nowhere near the importance of avoiding enemy fire while closing with them.

So I don't think the question is just how do I kill flotillas. It's got a lot more pieces than that. The question is, how do I kill flotillas...

Before the main fleet action starts

Without hampering my own combat effectiveness in that fleet action

While remaining effective if I don't face flotillas

Even if the flotilla is across the board and running away

Or otherwise mitigate the activation advantage they provide.

I'm sure I'm missing done pieces, but that's off the top of my head. Some see this as a problem with a broken game, particularly because the simplest answer is that last point: just mitigate the advantage they provide by bringing your own flotillas, boom, board full of GR-75's.

Personally, I see it as an interesting tactical and strategic problem that adds depth to the game while also providing all the positive meta pressures that have been discussed elsewhere (revitalizing large ships and squadrons, etc). I think (?) this is the root of most people's disagreement--whether they see this as a broken mechanic or a problem to solve tactically.

58 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

Ok, I've been keeping quiet, but I've had enough. I'm sorry, but this is just ridiculously hyperbolic. If you think the Quasar will be DOA, you're not even trying to think of other ways to build fleets. Here's what you know: it's Squadron 4, has at least one offensive retrofit, and at least one weapons team. It is therefore guaranteed to add a minimum of 5 blue dice to the squad fight every turn. That's a whole additional squadron worth of dice. This thing will absolutely have a place in Imperial builds. Hell, I wish my Rebel could have access to it.

On flotillas as a whole, if you don't like them, don't play with them. I've never cared for them in Imperial builds for thematic reasons, so they rarely show up in mine. And guess what? I win just fine without them. I make up for it in other ways, such as spewing Vader red dice like a fat man with food poisoning. Ask @moodswing5537 or @miferr about how our CC campaign went. I never used a flotilla and I only lost to @JJs Juggernaut (against whom our team went 1-3 and the only win was a base defense. I was calling him the Young Wolf by the half way point because we were winning the campaign, but we couldn't seem to beat HIM)

Do I lose because of activation disadvantage? Sure. More often than not, though, I end up losing because I made a mistake, not because of the almighty activation advantage. My point is, there are ways around activation advantage if you actually try to play the game in a different way. If you dismiss things out of hand like this, of course the game is going to feel stale.

Let me explain better, I think many people view the Quaser as a carrier and as such I do not think it will see much play over 2 x Flotilla. Do I think it can be used, hell yes, your viewing someone who plays 3 x Interdictors as Gunships for blue dice consistency.

My comment was based on the broad meta choices in the area I play in, where Flotillas are used heavily to push squads and for activation.

4 minutes ago, Englishpete said:

Let me explain better, I think many people view the Quaser as a carrier and as such I do not think it will see much play over 2 x Flotilla. Do I think it can be used, hell yes, your viewing someone who plays 3 x Interdictors as Gunships for blue dice consistency.

My comment was based on the broad meta choices in the area I play in, where Flotillas are used heavily to push squads and for activation.

It is a carrier. A way better carrier than two Gozantis.

Am I the only one here who remembers the value of a strong Imperial fighter alpha strike?? A 5-6 activation alpha strike with Flight Controllers is a huge deal, you guys! I take whole ISDs at 110 points just for that... Give me the same thing at even 2/3 the price and I'll snap it up.

11 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Personally, I see it as an interesting tactical and strategic problem that adds depth to the game while also providing all the positive meta pressures that have been discussed elsewhere (revitalizing large ships and squadrons, etc). I think (?) this is the root of most people's disagreement--whether they see this as a broken mechanic or a problem to solve tactically.

Very well put, and while I fall into the "adds depth to the game" side, it is great to see most of us having a **** civil discussion about this.

It pains me that right after we have this thread, where thoughts are exchanged, and different points of views are expressed, that I even responded at all to the "FFG nerfs flotillas" thread. I'm sure it was in good fun, but it really doesn't help as that wasn't the point the opposing side was making.

I for one am ready for **** Worlds. All I want to do is drink beer and push little plastic spaceships around. Lets not forget that we are very lucky that is what we are able to do.