6 hours ago, blackholexan said:

This has been asked and answered many times here on the forums.

The player removes the upgrade (for example via Disarm), the die is removed from a game effect (the upgrade leaving play) and its owner decides which die to remove. Period.

This is clearly covered by rules, too.

P.S.: sorry for the OT

Can anyone point me to the ruling or thread that answers this? Before I play Disarm or Confiscation, I ask which upgrade each die belongs to and then remove the one I want. That's the most common sense approach. Each die has to belong to one and only one of the upgrades. Not saying they haven't ruled some other way, but that doesn't follow logic to me.

10 hours ago, gokubb said:

Can anyone point me to the ruling or thread that answers this? Before I play Disarm or Confiscation, I ask which upgrade each die belongs to and then remove the one I want. That's the most common sense approach. Each die has to belong to one and only one of the upgrades. Not saying they haven't ruled some other way, but that doesn't follow logic to me.

You are forced to link a die to a specific upgrade ONLY if two of the same are on two different characters.

You are force to link a die to specific character IF you have two or more of the same one.

And it's not about common sense, it's about the rules. Games are made of rules.

My common sense failed as well on this matter and I lost a game due to this matter.

But the judge was kind enough to show me I was wrong and he was totally right.

You can find these exact words on the rules (page 9):

The common mistake (mine as well when I was not aware of this) about cards like Disarm or Confiscation is that players forget that those cards let you choose the card , not the dice .

My apologies to the other members for the OT.

The rule pointed to speaks to when the controlling player has to discard an upgrade from play. In the case of Confiscation and Disarm, the opposing player is discarding the upgrade from play. It's not a question of targeting cards vs dice. It's a question of who actually does the removal. In the case of Confiscation and Disarm, the player playing them removes, so the above rule doesn't speak to how that interaction should occur, since it says 'if they have to discard an upgrade from play'.

On 7/4/2017 at 9:22 PM, gokubb said:

The rule pointed to speaks to when the controlling player has to discard an upgrade from play. In the case of Confiscation and Disarm, the opposing player is discarding the upgrade from play. It's not a question of targeting cards vs dice. It's a question of who actually does the removal. In the case of Confiscation and Disarm, the player playing them removes, so the above rule doesn't speak to how that interaction should occur, since it says 'if they have to discard an upgrade from play'.

Again: Those cards remove the CARD. So the upgrade's owner has to discard its card from play.

Nitpicking terms won't change facts. Or rules. The rules completely covers that situation explaining what to do when an upgrade card leaves play .

It really doesn't matter the cause: the card is leaving play. So the die is removed. You can choose the die if you own the card. There's really nothing more than that.

Except as required by Page 5 of the tournament rules:

"When a player controls multiple cards or effects that use a die with the same collector number, he or she must designate the specific card or effect that each die in their dice pool corresponds to. The recommended way of designating this is by keeping dice adjacent to that card or source of the effect, in their dice pool area."

1 hour ago, Amanal said:

Except as required by Page 5 of the tournament rules:

"When a player controls multiple cards or effects that use a die with the same collector number, he or she must designate the specific card or effect that each die in their dice pool corresponds to. The recommended way of designating this is by keeping dice adjacent to that card or source of the effect, in their dice pool area."

If a character has 2 identical upgrade, you will have both dice next to the same character, that won't change rules.

As it is suggested in the game setup, you will have upgrade cards below the character card AND dice in the pool are above the equipped character card, you can't have phisical adjacency to them unless you have the same die (same upgrade) on different character cards OR two dice of two identical supports (and both in the pool).

Furthermore in the same file, as you are always required to roll all character and upgrade dice altogether , unless you have a targeting computer in your eyes on the first roll you will loose track of the dice if they are from the same character.

On a side note, as per rules, if you have 2 of the same upgrade on a character but only one of the dice in the pool, if you must remove the card for any reason, you will be forced to remove a matching die from the pool if there is one.

It sound unfortunate but rules force you to do so and you will have to do that.

Just now, blackholexan said:

If a character has 2 identical upgrade, you will have both dice next to the same character, that won't change rules.

As it is suggested in the game setup, you will have upgrade cards below the character card AND dice in the pool are above the equipped character card, you can't have phisical adjacency to them unless you have the same die (same upgrade) on different character cards OR two dice of two identical supports (and both in the pool)

You don't think at a tournament the tournament rules won't supersede the rules?

1 hour ago, Amanal said:

You don't think at a tournament the tournament rules won't supersede the rules?

I don't think they contradict each other, they would make one of them pointless imho

One of them is pointless in a tournament, that's my point. Read the quote from the tournament guide, it's pretty straightforward "he or she must designate the specific card or effect that each die in their dice pool corresponds to."

17 minutes ago, Amanal said:

One of them is pointless in a tournament, that's my point.

Sooo The Game Rules, 20+ pages, won't count in a tournament.

Interesting thought indeed: so I can ignore whatever the Rules say because I'm playing a competitive game. Wow.

There is no section of the tournament rules that specifies ( as the rules point out for card text, for examples ) that if one of the document contradicts the other, the tournament rules supersede the game rules.

It would more helpful to suggest FFG that the only 2 resources we have to play the game don't say the same on this point (even if I do not agree), imho.

And you conveniently ignored my annotation on dice rolling, as far as I can tell. Have you a rule / mean to track dice while in the air?

P.S.: I think It would be more useful to open a thread on this, instead of keep posting on this one.

23 hours ago, blackholexan said:

Again: Those cards remove the CARD. So the upgrade's owner has to discard its card from play.

Nitpicking terms won't change facts. Or rules. The rules completely covers that situation explaining what to do when an upgrade card leaves play .

It really doesn't matter the cause: the card is leaving play. So the die is removed. You can choose the die if you own the card. There's really nothing more than that.

DICE LEAVING PLAY

•

If a card with a matching die leaves play, the matching die

is also immediately removed from the game and set aside.

The removed die can enter the game again at a later time,

if its card enters play again

•

If a player has two copies of the same upgrade on a

character, and both of those upgrade dice are in their

dice pool when they have to discard an upgrade from

play, the player can choose which die to remove and set

aside. If a player has two copies of the same upgrade on

different characters (one upgrade on each character),

they must make sure to track each die separately.

Why do you keep saying the upgrade owner discards the card from play? Confiscation and Disarm clearly say the player of that card discards the card from play. The rule you keep quoting doesn't refer to that condition . It refers to the condition of the upgrade controller discarding an upgrade, i.e. Due to too many upgrades on a character, claiming with a battlefield that removes an upgrade, etc.

It is about which player discards the upgrade. Quit acting like your interpretation is the only one that is right in what is clearly a place that requires FAQ.

It's just like a card that would say, "whenever you roll a die, do something." If your opponent played a card that said, "reroll one die." If they chose one of your dice, you certainly would not get the whenever you roll a die ability. It matters who rolls, it matter who discards.

57 minutes ago, gokubb said:

Why do you keep saying the upgrade owner discards the card from play? Confiscation and Disarm clearly say the player of that card discards the card from play. The rule you keep quoting doesn't refer to that condition . It refers to the condition of the upgrade controller discarding an upgrade, i.e. Due to too many upgrades on a character, claiming with a battlefield that removes an upgrade, etc.

Are you really reading the Rules quote or note? I have never implied that the source of the discard has to be necessarily you.

Again, from the rules:

The rule says "when they have to discard". They being the owner of the upgrade. That's clear in the rules quote. If opponent discards, they ain't "they".

You're now quoting dice removal, when the issue at hand is upgrade removal. I don't know where that last comment came from. Reread the rules quote you referenced earlier and ignore the die gibberish you just spit out. We're talking about a character having multiple of the same upgrade with dice in pool. The opponent removes the upgrade, thus removing a die. Neither rule you've quoted says that owner then gets to choose the upgrade and associated die to removed. Rule you quoted says they would if "they" removed it not if opppnent removes it. It's all one sentence only ruling what happens when, "they have to discard an upgrade from play."

1 hour ago, gokubb said:

Why do you keep saying the upgrade owner discards the card from play? Confiscation and Disarm clearly say the player of that card discards the card from play.

The rules per the rulebook are as Blackholexan has it, if you disarm Rey's Holdout Blaster and she has 2, then your opponent picks the dice to remove. If Rey and Han each had a holdout blaster then your opponent would have to keep them separate and you would chose the card and dice. While I can see that the "the player" in the " the player can choose which die to remove and set aside." isn't clear the sentence begins with " If a player has two copies of the same upgrade on a character " and as such the subject of the sentence, going back 30 years to my year 9 grammar lessons, is the player with the 2 cards - being the guy who was targeted by your disarm for example. Hope that helps?

However, at a tournament he is wrong. In that case while you remove the card you opponent has to track which dice belongs to which card, so you can remove the card that will ensure the dice you want is removed.

6 minutes ago, Amanal said:

However, at a tournament he is wrong. In that case while you remove the card you opponent has to track which dice belongs to which card, so you can remove the card that will ensure the dice you want is removed.

Thank you for summarizing everything.

The sad truth is that we have been ruled (in three different official tournaments, in 3 different shops) otherwise (ignoring the sentence in the Tournament Resources file).

The judge (from Asmodee staff) claimed they asked their counterpart from FFG on this matter and they ruled that when a card with a matching die leaves play, the owner always has the chance to choose the die (and he is forced to remove it even if the die "linked" to one of the 2 upgrades on the same character was already spent).

I hope the next iteration of FAQ and (Tournament) rules wipes issues like this out.

Well I spoke to my cousin and he has a friend that asked his college and they said that the judge you speak of should have the competency to be able to read the rules and tournament guides and not have to rely on word of mouth.

1 hour ago, Amanal said:

Well I spoke to my cousin and he has a friend that asked his college and they said that the judge you speak of should have the competency to be able to read the rules and tournament guides and not have to rely on word of mouth.

You're talking about the same guy that told me how to find the Triforce in Ocarina of Time! Small world.

This same question (moving upgrade with cargo hold ignoring play restriction) has been posted on italian (Asmodee) offical forum too.

Since there is no FAQ on this, they have ruled that you are indeed allowed to move a Blue Character only to a character of your choice, as moving is not playing (I agree with the reason but thematically Cargo Hold shoul allow to move only equipments or weapons...)