Just now, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

The risk is your opponent doesn't fly into your bombs.

Which is a minimal risk given that you drop your bombs on your opponents most of the time, if you're doing it right.

Ok. If you opponent doesn't fly into you bombs is a minor risk, but you still get a bomb on your ship with her. And I have seen people fly their own ships into their own bombs, knowing they could put an automatic hit on an enemy nearby. This goes back to the old you cannot shoot your own ships, but allows you to in effect do so. By making it a 50% chance, now you have risk.

7 minutes ago, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

So the answer was no actually because she only works in a narrow subset of lists?

The answer was YES, because she singlehandedly dominates any game where bombs are played by the rebel player, and all at 2 points. It would be one thing if there were bomb lists that didn't utilize Sabine, but her cheapness and brutal effectiveness mean she's auto-include, which means she's OP. Any time you don't have a choice weather to take an upgrade, that's when you know it's out of control power-wise.

*edit* a word

3 minutes ago, eagletsi111 said:

Ok. If you opponent doesn't fly into you bombs is a minor risk, but you still get a bomb on your ship with her. And I have seen people fly their own ships into their own bombs, knowing they could put an automatic hit on an enemy nearby. This goes back to the old you cannot shoot your own ships, but allows you to in effect do so. By making it a 50% chance, now you have risk.

If Sabine needs players to run into their own bombs to be effective, then maybe she's overcosted at 2 points.

1 minute ago, Johen Dood said:

The answer was YES, because she singlehandedly dominates any game where bombs are played by the rebel player, and all at 2 points. It would be one thing if there bomb lists that didn't utilize Sabine, but her cheapness and brutal effectiveness mean she's auto-include, which means she's OP. Any time you don't have a choice weather to take an upgrade, that's when you know it's out of control power-wise.

Again, lists where bombs are taken by the rebel player is such a narrow constraint that it doesn't matter that such lists need a card to function. Do we nerf Decimators because they dominate any list they're in?

Just now, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

Again, lists where bombs are taken by the rebel player is such a narrow constraint that it doesn't matter that such lists need a card to function. Do we nerf Decimators because they dominate any list they're in?

It's NOT a narrow constraint! Most of the top rebel lists in the last 3 opens had Sabine in them, she's the most played Crew card in the Rebel faction BY A HUGE MARGIN. And I'm not sure how comparing Sabine to a Decimator makes your point. Maybe compare her to other auto-include crew......like say......Palpatine? Hmmmm yeah his auto-include status got him the nerf hammer, now I remember. And look I'm not trying to mount a campaign against Sabine or anything, but I'm telling you, she's GOING to get FAQ'd like Palp did. Just be ready for it.

24 minutes ago, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

Again, lists where bombs are taken by the rebel player is such a narrow constraint that it doesn't matter that such lists need a card to function. Do we nerf Decimators because they dominate any list they're in?

Your narrow constraint argument is flawed. x7 applied to only one ship, yet people thought it should be nerfed. Manaroo is one pilot ability, yet it was decided it should be nerfed. There are those who think TLTs should be nerfed, though they have a "narrow constraint".

I'm a fan of making her discard on use. Makes her a lot less useful in spam lists, but still solid on ships like Ashoka.

Omg 1 auto damage? God forbid bombs finally have some viability after years of no use, in 1 or 2 niche builds, which still require proper flying for greatest effect, in the weakest (maybe second weakest) faction in the game. <.<

Or just...fly...better? Good players know how not to chase K-Wings, mostly Miranda, and eat back-to-seismics resulting in 4 auto damage. Or not landing your 3 or 4 health ace right in a predictable SLAM-bombing run that you could've easily avoided.

Use the asteroids to your advantage. K-Wings can't SLAM through rocks and drop bombs. Their dial is very limited when stressed. They can't do much when ionized. Tractor beams can screw their maneuvers up, before or after they've moved. Or just alpha strike the thing off the board. Turrets should have no problems with Sabine either, because there is no reason on earth why you should be chasing or jousting a K-Wing when you can shoot it from the flank. Just my two cents...

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

Your narrow constraint argument is flawed. x7 applied to only one ship, yet people thought it should be nerfed. Manaroo is one pilot ability, yet it was decided it should be nerfed. There are those who think TLTs should be nerfed, though they have a "narrow constraint".

What do you even think my argument is?
It isn't "cards with narrow applications never should be nerfed". It's that cards being auto-included in a subset of lists isn't grounds for a nerf.

35 minutes ago, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

What do you even think my argument is?
It isn't "cards with narrow applications never should be nerfed". It's that cards being auto-included in a subset of lists isn't grounds for a nerf.

Still flawed. The subset is growing in use and has pushed other types of builds (low health Aces) out.

2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Still flawed. The subset is growing in use and has pushed other types of builds (low health Aces) out.

Those sound like separate an independent reasons that are not "is an autoinclude" which is what I'm saying but whatever.

Nothing wrong with Sabine. Range restrictions and die rolls won't solve the problem. Advanced SLAM is the issue. It's way too flexible. A K-wing player can dial in a 2-forward, perform their maneuver, then choose from any of five 2-speed SLAMs to drop their bomb. They have perfect knowledge of the board state. I'm not saying bombing is easy, I know for a fact that bombing requires quite a bit of skill. But the fact that the K-wing player has perfect knowledge of the board state when dialing in their SLAM is kind of nuts.

People complained about Palp being easy mode because you have "perfect knowledge" of when to change your dice after seeing the results. And then Palp got nerfed. Advanced SLAM bombing is similar IMO. If Advanced SLAM only triggered when, say, you performed a SLAM of the same bearing as the maneuver you executed that round, it would be easier to dodge. This reward good flying and being able to out-guess your opponent on both the part of the K-wing player and the player that's the target of the bomb.

Just now, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

Those sound like separate an independent reasons that are not "is an autoinclude" which is what I'm saying but whatever.

But it is linked. Because it is an auto include it is "everywhere", thus it drives up the cost of flying a low health ace above the benefit it offers.

2 hours ago, Johen Dood said:

It's NOT a narrow constraint! Most of the top rebel lists in the last 3 opens had Sabine in them, she's the most played Crew card in the Rebel faction BY A HUGE MARGIN. And I'm not sure how comparing Sabine to a Decimator makes your point. Maybe compare her to other auto-include crew......like say......Palpatine? Hmmmm yeah his auto-include status got him the nerf hammer, now I remember. And look I'm not trying to mount a campaign against Sabine or anything, but I'm telling you, she's GOING to get FAQ'd like Palp did. Just be ready for it.

Auto-include like Boba Fett on a Toilet Seat? Does Boba also need a nerf now, or K4 droid?

Let's be honest here...

Sabine made Bombs competitive. Everyone is just pissed because she is Rebel only.

But just wait until the Scurrg comes out with that systems bomb upgrade and bomb generator. Then Tie Punishers and the Scurrg are gonna be serious bomb threats.

Also I'm fine when Miranda takes Sabine. Makes it easier to kill her over C-3PO.

4 minutes ago, Lampyridae said:

Auto-include like Boba Fett on a Toilet Seat? Does Boba also need a nerf now, or K4 droid?

He is asking for the same logic that people used against Palp to be applied across the board, not just on Palp. Yes, it is a slippery slope that ends with all cards banned into oblivion. But it does make a point.

2 minutes ago, Lampyridae said:

Auto-include like Boba Fett on a Toilet Seat? Does Boba also need a nerf now, or K4 droid?

Boba at least is discard on use, far more balanced. Sabine would actually be pretty balanced if she was too.

Just now, SabineKey said:

But it is linked. Because it is an auto include it is "everywhere", thus it drives up the cost of flying a low health ace above the benefit it offers.

Their link is a matter of consequence. Except one may be nerf worthy (pushes things out, a separate argument), and the other is irrelevant (how many people are playing Sabine).
Consider the following: A card comes out tomorrow that says "you win the game." If only I have a copy does it need to be nerfed? If everyone but me gets a copy does it need to be nerfed? If you're following along at home you'll notice the answers to both are "Yes" because it pushes out everything else which doesn't guarantee a 100% win chance. You will notice that it had nothing to do with being an auto-include, even though that would be a consequence of such a card.

2 minutes ago, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

Their link is a matter of consequence. Except one may be nerf worthy (pushes things out, a separate argument), and the other is irrelevant (how many people are playing Sabine).
Consider the following: A card comes out tomorrow that says "you win the game." If only I have a copy does it need to be nerfed? If everyone but me gets a copy does it need to be nerfed? If you're following along at home you'll notice the answers to both are "Yes" because it pushes out everything else which doesn't guarantee a 100% win chance. You will notice that it had nothing to do with being an auto-include, even though that would be a consequence of such a card.

You are missing the fact that because it is an auto include is the reason it pushes things out. Let's say Sabine wasn't an autoinclude, and appeared in say one Bomber list in five. That's four lists that Aces have a better chance against, so the benefit/cost ratio evens out. Yes, there is a Sabine still lurking out there, but that's one bad match up rather than five.

You are right. Simply being an auto include isn't enough. But when being an auto include forces other things out, it's a problem. They are not separate issues in this case. One leads to another.

Or, you can just kill her.

Remove sabine from the table and problem solved. Seriously I don't know why the moment a upgrade weapon that has been mostly ignored because they suck in the meta all of a sudden becomes good people now want to nerf it. First was torpedoes, those were never an issue before Wave 8. Now it is bombs, if somehow dumbfire rockets become good are you going to call a nerf then?

I guess some people are stuck in that stupid Imperial Academy mindset that you should only be allowed to play X-wing with Primary Weapons and standard firing arcs. Everything else is killing the game.

8 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

You are right. Simply being an auto include isn't enough.

Quit while you're ahead. This is literally all I'm saying.

5 minutes ago, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

Quit while you're ahead. This is literally all I'm saying.

And you cut out the rest of the sentence where I explained that Sabine being an auto include is part of larger problem. Without it, the problem sorts itself out.

39 minutes ago, Sir13scott said:

Let's be honest here...

Sabine made Bombs competitive. Everyone is just pissed because she is Rebel only.

But just wait until the Scurrg comes out with that systems bomb upgrade and bomb generator. Then Tie Punishers and the Scurrg are gonna be serious bomb threats.

Also I'm fine when Miranda takes Sabine. Makes it easier to kill her over C-3PO.

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