39 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

In my opinion Sabine herself is not the problem. She is plenty strong and a pure ace list will lose to any Bombs assisted by her, but that is how it sould be. Aces hardcounter so many other things that something to keep them in check is good for the game.

The problem is Cluster Mines. By themselves they are also okay, but since Sabine potentialy works on every token, they allow her to trigger on a lot more turns. Sabine with 8 Clusters can in the very extreme best case deal 24 damage. A more realistic figure is 14 (that I had not too infrequently). Add to that the dice damage and you have a shot at taking down any list that isn't VCX spam.

Would the 3 K-Wings be forced to run Conner Nets, their total bomb damage would be capped at 16, Sabines contribution being just 8 in the very best case. That is still enough to get rid of any ace and most two ship lists, though a lot slower in dealing out that damage. It isn't able to take on any list with more hitpoints anymore. That would be the ideal situation - pure K-Wing lists wreck aces, but not much else, ace lists wreck anything lower PS without autodamage, but have their hard counters in each faction.

So what is the solution? I'd say to not allow Cluster Mines in lists that also have Sabine Wren. Sabine still allows Rebels to take on aces, Cluster Mines are still an option for Deathfire and other bombers. FFG has never done anything like that, but I think you can do it fine within their usual operating range by adding "if your list contains no Cluster Mines" before her ability, so you can use her to have a bomb slot and put Cluster Mines in there, or you can use other bombs and make them stronger.

Whut?

That would require ships to literally go back and forth over the cluster mines. We can take theoretical damage, but the odds of this happening are ridiculously low. That would also require the game to last 24 turns, which equates to a round every 3 minutes in a standard tournament game.

1 minute ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Pre-wave 6: "They'll never do other factions!"

Pre-Phantom-nerf: "They'll never nerf a ship through FAQ!"

Pre-JM5K-nerfs: "They'll never nerf an upgrade card! - but Tactician - DOESN'T MATTER!"

Pre M3A-changes: "They'll never buff upgrades through FAQ!"

You know, I won't say it is likely FFG does what I propose, I am just some random guy on the internet after all, but I believe this is the best route for the game. Should FFG through some miracle come to the same conclusion, they will make it happen, no matter what happened in the past. My post even included a way to not make the packaging of Cluster Mines in the Ghost expansion pointless, even if it really just does that.

I´m no fortune teller, nor are you. I just expressed that I really don´t believe that Sabine will get that treatment.

But you´re right, now that I think it more: after Palpatine nerf I guess anything is possible.
In my opinion this is not worth nerfing. Rebel regeneration is.

15 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Because Fenn Rau is a sentient missile. You know he's gonna die, but the chances of him getting off enough damage to pay for himself is high enough to overcome the cost.

I agree Sabine isn't the only one factor. But, she is the one of the ones where green dice mean nothing.

as it should be. The sooner we all learn to play with red dice only, the happier we will be.

3 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

I´m no fortune teller, nor are you. I just expressed that I really don´t believe that Sabine will get that treatment.

But you´re right, now that I think it more: after Palpatine nerf I guess anything is possible.
In my opinion this is not worth nerfing. Rebel regeneration is.

I have played 3Ks a lot and I have won games where I didn't feel I should have. Regen on the other hand I haven't seen win a game in ages. Haven't played against non-Miranda regen in ages, though. And against her the games never featured her regening much, she either died right away when I won or didn't take any damgage that wasn't self-inflicted when I lost.

4 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

I have played 3Ks a lot and I have won games where I didn't feel I should have. Regen on the other hand I haven't seen win a game in ages. Haven't played against non-Miranda regen in ages, though. And against her the games never featured her regening much, she either died right away when I won or didn't take any damgage that wasn't self-inflicted when I lost.

Well these are of course subjective matters, as I have seen regen wins very much, but haven´t lost to bombs.

Oh yes, absolutely, like I said, I played very little regen in the first place lately, and then all of that was Miranda and it didn't matter, that is an outlier experience for sure. I should probably take up a squad featuring regen so I can talk about that better, as there aren't players around me who are likely to.

1 hour ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

In my opinion Sabine herself is not the problem. She is plenty strong and a pure ace list will lose to any Bombs assisted by her, but that is how it sould be. Aces hardcounter so many other things that something to keep them in check is good for the game.

The problem is Cluster Mines. By themselves they are also okay, but since Sabine potentialy works on every token, they allow her to trigger on a lot more turns. Sabine with 8 Clusters can in the very extreme best case deal 24 damage. A more realistic figure is 14 (that I had not too infrequently). Add to that the dice damage and you have a shot at taking down any list that isn't VCX spam.

This is a lot of magical Christmas land, including a game that was 24 turns long and your opponent was polite enough to hit every mine one at a time for you. Even your 14 damage seems really high for Sabine. 14 turns?

2 minutes ago, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

This is a lot of magical Christmas land, including a game that was 24 turns long and your opponent was polite enough to hit every mine one at a time for you. Even your 14 damage seems really high for Sabine. 14 turns?

You are right, that is still on the high side, but against lists that you don't immediatly blow out it can happen good flying provided (because in those matchups losing a K-Wing is pretty likely). The important point is that instead of just turns you drop bombs, you can do damage on any turn, as your target isn't too likely to have moved away too far from the mine. Having all the tokens around to trigger Sabine is what makes the Mines just that much better.

8 hours ago, Punning Pundit said:

Do other factions have bomb lists that work? I think the real problem is that bombs are bad, not that Sabine is OP.

Good deal, I agree. Lets make Sabine cross-faction then!

13 minutes ago, Johen Dood said:

Good deal, I agree. Lets make Sabine cross-faction then!

Here's hoping the Scurrg will be a good bomber and not another Punisher.

11 minutes ago, Johen Dood said:

Good deal, I agree. Lets make Sabine cross-faction then!

Nah, lets give the other factions comparable tools that encourage different bombing styles. Something for scum that works with reveal bombs, something for the empire that works with Deathfire and Deathrain, so probably a control-bomb buff with either stronger Conners or the ability to assign Ion tokens to the victim of any bombs. And preferably as a Missile upgrade, so there is no need for crewed ships and Bomber, Punisher, and Firespray can all utilize it.

1 minute ago, Lampyridae said:

Here's hoping the Scurrg will be a good bomber and not another Punisher.

Amen.

Just now, Admiral Deathrain said:

Nah, lets give the other factions comparable tools that encourage different bombing styles. Something for scum that works with reveal bombs, something for the empire that works with Deathfire and Deathrain, so probably a control-bomb buff with either stronger Conners or the ability to assign Ion tokens to the victim of any bombs. And preferably as a Missile upgrade, so there is no need for crewed ships and Bomber, Punisher, and Firespray can all utilize it.

I'm hopeful for a Punisher title that trades boost for SLAM, too. I like these ideas though, could be neat.