6 minutes ago, ThalanirIII said:

Would you like me to expand the point further than I thought it needed to?

It was an illustration of the start of a series of better investments. Lets go on in that vein.

I have 1 torp (say 4pts). = 4pts per shot.

1 torp + EM = 3pts per shot

2 torps + EM = 2.5pts per shot

3 torps + EM = 2.33pts per shot

4 torps + EM - 2.25pts per shot

The limit as n tends to infinity is 2pts per shot for a 4-cost torpedo/missile/bomb.

Now, you'll most likely have to spend a TL on that shot, unless you run deadeye (Punishers/K wings can't do that) and you need chips or scanners to get the action economy, or adv slam if you're bombing.

I'd hardly say its as OP as you seem to think.

As noted, the only case where there's even really an argument that it's over-discounting is currently on K Wings.

And given that, the solution should be to fix the freaking K Wing, not to nerf EM. EM isn't the problem. EM makes ordnance cheap enough in most cases (except those where it doesn't go nearly far enough, like the Punisher or Bomber). The ships which use it and are unbalanced are the K Wing (way too many slots, and SLAM/ASLAM are the real key killers here, without ASLAM they could load up all the bombs in the world and have the same issue as the Punisher in terms of getting them shot off in time) and the Scout (which is at least 1 point undercosted even if you kill the EPT slot, probably 2 points undercosted without. Make it costed correctly, EM is the right cost on it, or thereabouts).

I've seen this a lot recently; people wanting to nerf the upgrades being used by over-slotted, overpowered, or undercosted ships, rather than wanting to nerf the ships themselves.

It's kind of frustrating that people often seem less interested in the ships, than the upgrades.

Alright this Shadow345 character is going on the ignore list. Exclusively a troll.

4 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Twin Laser Turret : " You cannot modify your attack dice. "

Attani Mindlink : "each other unstressed friendly ship"

Extra Munitions : " place 1 Ordnance token on this card. When you are instructed to discard a Torpedo, Missile or Bomb upgrade card you may discard 1 Ordnance token from this card instead. "

I'm hesitant to encourage *more* stress mechanics (specifically the stress hog).

1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

I'm hesitant to encourage *more* stress mechanics (specifically the stress hog).

Which is why i also said (later) that I'd probably want to nerf R3-A2 to diversify stress options.

14 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Alright this Shadow345 character is going on the ignore list. Exclusively a troll.

He is, but ironically a troll that creates good conversations with his topics.

Just now, Stay On The Leader said:

Which is why i also said (later) that I'd probably want to nerf R3-A2 to diversify stress options.

Sorry, missed that one.

I don't mind stress as a once-per-round effect. Like when Wes Janson pops up occasionally in the meta: when he runs R3-A2, it doesn't feel overpowered or unfun. He's a super controlly ship, that doesn't feel unbalanced.

51 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I understand your sentiment, I really do. I was actually quite OK with the FAQ 4.3.0 when I first read it; uncomfortable a bit to initially swallow, but I grew rather easily OK with it in a day or two.

Now, I may be wrong (I usually find myself there), but I have a lot less than OK feelings towards FAQ 4.3.0 now that it has settled in for almost a month. I know the designers were well intentioned and performed a lot of testing, but I now think they might have missed the mark; missed the real issue while attacking some usual suspects. My (albeit limited) empirical evidence is proving to me that that the actual competitive Meta I rub elbows with has narrowed in squad types rather than expanded in any way.

To be honest, I don't really have much of an opinion one way or the other on 4.3.0, much as it's casually murdered the squads I've been running pretty much to the exclusion of all else since the Raider came out. By its impact on the meta shall ye know whether an FAQ was any good, and I still think it's a bit too early to judge just yet.

I was just attempting to gently point out an obvious flaw in an argument that was being somewhat patronizingly presented as self-evidently logical.

wtf would you guys want to nerf EM for? Ordnance are pretty crap except on 1-3 specific builds, and even then theyre not overpowered at all.

Sabine + a ton of bombs is the closest to broken, and i still dont consider that one broken either.

26 minutes ago, Rodafowa said:

To be honest, I don't really have much of an opinion one way or the other on 4.3.0, much as it's casually murdered the squads I've been running pretty much to the exclusion of all else since the Raider came out. By its impact on the meta shall ye know whether an FAQ was any good, and I still think it's a bit too early to judge just yet.

I was just attempting to gently point out an obvious flaw in an argument that was being somewhat patronizingly presented as self-evidently logical.

Well penned.

I agree, thus my hesitation on making any grand indictments or postulations on TLTs, as it seems sometimes the cure is worse than the disease. In addition, my opinion on them used as spam in a squad is anecdotal; so I'm no expert.

I also think instances of self-evidently logic can be found on this form to be sure, but I'm glad that most posters, such as yourself, think as objectively as the can, then type. Or at least that is our hope, haha.

Game does not need saved. My store had 6 xwingers last year. Now we are at 20+. Our casual nights regularly bring 10.

4 hours ago, Voitek said:

But just being able to double stress a ship, just like that, by making attacks, at any range,

Not at any range.

4 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

He is, but ironically a troll that creates good conversations with his topics.

Yeah, truly inspired.

Been there,

done that.

He's just a troll, and everyone else does the heavy lifting. Looking at his profile, I'm not even sure the putz plays X-Wing.

6 hours ago, DarthEnderX said:

TLT. The card people stopped caring about a long time ago until FFG announced that Imperials were going to get it. Now suddenly they're ruining the game again and that's not even out yet.

It wasn't the imperials that are getting it, but really the nerfs to the Alpha strike list which was the first to take away its lead. However in a different post I said the problem with contracted scouts was not the alpha-strike or the turret spam, or the cost but rather a perfect storm of all three. Alpha strikes would have no problem with quad TLT because an alpha strike is the only list that could potentially out damage the 8 hits from TLT in the first turn and that is even after taking TLT casualties.

Alpha strike would be perfectly fine and in balance, if it were not attached to something that can also make out of arc attacks. Thing is it is like the FFG devs don't understand what made <torpedo> and <missile> secondary weapons bad in the first place and the contracted scout was just the accident that proved how good they could be if they had the right build. Now TIE Bombers, TIE Punishers and B-wings which would be the perfect balance for a alpha strike list being able to kill anything they catch in their arc but can't harm anything out of their arc would be the ship to make that powerful focus to shot with re roll attack dice combo. however nothing like the pre-nerfed Deadeye R4-agro combo is available to them. So they sit at the bottom.

So in short, alpha strike gone, TLT is back.

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

If you think TLT is really "killing" X-Wing then there are FAR deeper problems with the game and doing something to TLT isn't going to change that one darn bit. I'd even say that nerfing TLT does far more to kill the game then just leaving it alone does.

10 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

Seriously, who actually likes TLTs?

I like TLTs. I have rarely (read: almost never) played them myself (I prefer maneuvering to just rolling lots of red dice), but I like flying against them. It's a little like flying against a clock.

I think the TLT is fine. Maaaaaybe it's a 6.5 point card, but if so it's right that it be rounded down to 6 points.

I would not be horribly opposed to tiny nerfs to the TLT, including either of these:

(1) Make it a double-dotter. Not Unique, but only two per 100 points. Or ...

(2) Make it hit twice, at which point it does 2 damage. If either attack misses, it does 0 damage. (But if one of the two attacks hits, it still triggers effects on a hit.)

But I don't think TLTs actually need nerfing.

5 hours ago, Kijaucey said:

Game does not need saved. My store had 6 xwingers last year. Now we are at 20+. Our casual nights regularly bring 10.

Do you want 30 or 6 next year?

mindlink should just work between two ships

TLT cannot modify dice out of arc

We need a game where flying and dials matter again.

Is this thread already about pie?

If not ... guys, do you realize you are being trolled?

17 hours ago, Quarrel said:

Not at any range.

Yeah, I wasnt precise enough.

At range 1, 2 or 3, comparing to limited-range stress machines like tactician (R2 only) or asajj (R1-2) or 4-Lom (range1)

Alpha strike lists being at the top of the meta has an incredibly degenerate effect on the game. I think this is the cardinal sin of ordnance in X-wing because that's the only way ordnance makes sense- if you can just pour it on people and abuse it, it works. If you can't, it sucks because it takes a lot of effort to make the torps/missiles work.

10 minutes ago, Panzeh said:

Alpha strike lists being at the top of the meta has an incredibly degenerate effect on the game. I think this is the cardinal sin of ordnance in X-wing because that's the only way ordnance makes sense- if you can just pour it on people and abuse it, it works. If you can't, it sucks because it takes a lot of effort to make the torps/missiles work.

Well this isn't a thread about alpha strikes, but also I 100% agree.

The only thing that's worse than Ordnance being unplayable is Ordnance being playable.

13 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

But I don't think TLTs actually need nerfing.

I don´t think the Emperor & Defenders actually needed nerfing either. Yet it happened.

To get a little more on topic, the secondary turret slot needing to be good enough to be a ships primary means of attack is why TLT was made.

If you were looking for a rock/paper/scissors type of comparison I'd want turrets to defeat arc-dodgers who in turn eat up jousters which could make short work of turrets. An issue with that is that while turrets may be somewhat specific everything can fall into an arc-dodger or jouster classification to some extent.

On 4/4/2017 at 5:40 AM, BlodVargarna said:

Does anyone like TLTs?

I do. It's one of the few cards that makes accuracy and damage separate items rather than lumping them together. Plus, I'm a HWK pilot, so *shrug*