Well if Unguided Rockets are 'infinite value' then so is every primary weapon! Everything is infinitely good! Wooooooo!


And also, Unguided Rockets are probably a bit crap.

2 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Well if Unguided Rockets are 'infinite value' then so is every primary weapon! Everything is infinitely good! Wooooooo!


And also, Unguided Rockets are probably a bit crap.

Most ordnance is... because they are too expensive... it would be nice to have something to beef up their value by... I don't know, letting them to be used more than once? Oh my. I think we have a solution...

But wouldn't it be nice to have a solution that supported Ordnance value but didn't run a risk of multiplying that value out of balance with other squadbuilding options?

3 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

But wouldn't it be nice to have a solution that supported Ordnance value but didn't run a risk of multiplying that value out of balance with other squadbuilding options?

Is there a ship other than the K Wing that experiences this hyperinflated value in any meaningful capacity though?

The way I see it, the real cost you are paying with ordnance is not of squadpoint, but opportunity. By selecting one type of ordnance, you are not selecting another. Yeah, you are paying some points, so you don't chuck every one of your ordnance ships full with rockets and missiles, but that is not the real cost. For all I care FFG could make all Ordnance have infinite uses, and we wouldn't have a problem then either, because you can't take them all. (makes more sense flavor wise as well, and wouldn't throw off the balance of the game either)

27 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I mean no disrespect and I don't want to be disparaging about builds that I've never flown, but it seems like the quad TLT Y lists are quite the lazy list to fly when you still want to knock some players off the mat anyway.

You are far too polite. I intend my disrespect towards 4xTLT lists. Your observation is quite correct. 4xTLT lists are lazy, dull, and seem to be used by players who want an easy way to win, not a fun way to play.

1 TLT in a list is no problem. TLT spam (or TLT Miranda) is a problem.

And that Heragator list from Yavin. Urgh. If I ever sit down opposite that I'll concede and just go and sit in the corner with a patch of wet paint instead.

9 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

And that Heragator list from Yavin. Urgh. If I ever sit down opposite that I'll concede and just go and sit in the corner with a patch of wet paint instead.

Ok, what's the Heragator ?

Hera Navigator.

Dial in 1 red left turn, switch it up to 1 red right turn with Hera's ability, then dial in a 2 white right turn with Navigator.

5 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Ok, what's the Heragator ?

Whatever he dials he can switch up with Hera/Navigator to a bunch of other options to make sure you don't get close, and boost away if need be. It's a Ghost with C-3PO crew, that's how confident he is that you're not getting close. Basically his whole gameplan is that all but one of your ships are out of range then he'll fire 4 TLT at the one he left in range 3.

1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Ahsoka Tano + Veteran Instincts + Captured TIE + Sabines Masterpiece + Intelligence Agent + Black Market Slicer Tools Zeb Orrelios Hera Syndulla + Accuracy Corrector + Twin Laser Turret + C-3PO + Navigator + Ghost + Engine Upgrade (99)

Whatever he dials he can switch up with Hera/Navigator to a bunch of other options to make sure you don't get close, and boost away if need be.

I take it that Zeb is in the shuttle? No Phantom title? I can see that as an obnoxious build for the Ghost.

Yeah, it's docked.

He just breaks all the rules of X-Wing but not caring what he dials in, and not rolling dice. In one regard it's a pure intellectual challenge without any of that pesky guesswork or variance, but on the other hand it's also pretty unpleasant.

Props to the guy for the creative nous in coming up with it, but I hope it dies in a fire.

Indeed. Require it to need a focus to fire in the first place, that forces the player not to bump or get a focus another way.

That fixes the issue. IMO

1 minute ago, Stoneface said:

I take it that Zeb is in the shuttle? No Phantom title? I can see that as an obnoxious build for the Ghost.

Zeb has the title. It's not actually legal to field the Ghost title alongside an Attack Shuttle which doesn't have it.

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Historical evidence is that when things get nerfed it tends to have a positive effect on the metagame diversity, yet people are still fervently against any discussion of a small number of further nerfs.

That's the same sort of thinking that leads to people believing that because "they laughed at Galileo too!!!" anyone presenting any unpopular idea is obviously a misunderstood genius being ground down by mindless conformists.

The historical evidence isn't that Nerfs Are Best For Business, it's that when FFG decide to nerf something because it's having a negative affect on the meta they're usually right.

3 minutes ago, Rodafowa said:

The historical evidence isn't that Nerfs Are Best For Business, it's that when FFG decide to nerf something because it's having a negative affect on the meta they're usually right.

Aaaaaaah. So it's like a 'word of God' type of deal?

So we shouldn't suggest nerfs might be appropriate even though in the best past we suggested some nerfs might be appropriate before the almighty beings of FFG peered down from their lofty perch to meddle in the affairs of mortals and judged that those nerfs were indeed appropriate?

Ok, no discussion allowed. Sorry!

2 hours ago, Pretty Green said:

I would have agreed to nerf the TLT´s a while back, now I´m aggressively opposing the idea.

I see what you did there ...

2 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Aaaaaaah. So it's like a 'word of God' type of deal?

So we shouldn't suggest nerfs might be appropriate even though in the best past we suggested some nerfs might be appropriate before the almighty beings of FFG peered down from their lofty perch to meddle in the affairs of mortals and judged that those nerfs were indeed appropriate?

Ok, no discussion allowed. Sorry!

Yes, dear. That's exactly what I said, right enough.

9 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Yeah, it's docked.

He just breaks all the rules of X-Wing but not caring what he dials in, and not rolling dice. In one regard it's a pure intellectual challenge without any of that pesky guesswork or variance, but on the other hand it's also pretty unpleasant.

Props to the guy for the creative nous in coming up with it, but I hope it dies in a fire.

That's an amazingly strong combo. Don't get stressed and you have pretty much an open dial. Actually, unstressed the whole dial is open. Now THAT is a ridiculous combo!

16 minutes ago, Rodafowa said:

The historical evidence isn't that Nerfs Are Best For Business, it's that when FFG decide to nerf something because it's having a negative affect on the meta they're usually right.

I understand your sentiment, I really do. I was actually quite OK with the FAQ 4.3.0 when I first read it; uncomfortable a bit to initially swallow, but I grew rather easily OK with it in a day or two.

Now, I may be wrong (I usually find myself there), but I have a lot less than OK feelings towards FAQ 4.3.0 now that it has settled in for almost a month. I know the designers were well intentioned and performed a lot of testing, but I now think they might have missed the mark; missed the real issue while attacking some usual suspects. My (albeit limited) empirical evidence is proving to me that that the actual competitive Meta I rub elbows with has narrowed in squad types rather than expanded in any way.

2 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

That's an amazingly strong combo. Don't get stressed and you have pretty much an open dial. Actually, unstressed the whole dial is open. Now THAT is a ridiculous combo!

Not quite the whole dial. You have a choice of one half or the other - pick a green, do any straight or bank, pick a red, do any turn or the K Turn.

And mostly it will be looking to avoid stress to get the aforementioned combat phase boosting from Ahsoka's ability.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

Not quite the whole dial. You have a choice of one half or the other - pick a green, do any straight or bank, pick a red, do any turn or the K Turn.

And mostly it will be looking to avoid stress to get the aforementioned combat phase boosting from Ahsoka's ability.

Haven't run Ahsoka yet.

It's not just TLTs, it's all about the platform that is carrying it.

Last time I have seen 4*TLT Ywings winning a large tournament was scottish regionals. It's less comon than people like to think.

IMHO the biggest issue is a combo of Ywing with stressbot and TLT combined with K-wing with TLT (and some other ship - biggs/ashoka).

This particular list have so many negative play experience elements I dont even know where to start

- Kwings and their SLAm-bombing is ridiculously OP. SLAM is a great action when you use it defensively for arc dodging, but offensive use of slam+advanced slam to get bomb placement on 1/4 of the map is just stupid and unavoidable, mostly. On top of that, K-wings are what almost eradicated agile, shieldless/low-shield fighters - interceptors/Awings/tie-advanceds. Yes, fang fighters are still holding strong but that's mostly because scum commanders (like me) were craving for a proper fighter for so long we still use it despite it dying so quickly against bombers.

Another stupid element of Kwings (and miranda doni especially): they are a great counter to pretty much everything with no clear downsides. Interceptors? bomb do death. Swarms? Use ridiculous mobility/slamming to avoid being shot by more than 2 ships at R3. Low agility large ships? bomb/TLT to death. high agility ace on low health after being bombed? Sacrifice a shield to throw 4 dice TLT in his face. Bleah.

Proposed nerf:
"After executing a SLAM action, you may execute free action printed on your action bar". So you may focus or target lock after slam, bu not drop bombs.

- Stressbot - stressing someone once, is perfecly fine. double stressing someone who was reckless and for example pushed the limit, or did a red maneuver knowing there is a stressbot on the other side - fine as well. But just being able to double stress a ship, just like that, by making attacks, at any range, only with arc restriction, should never happen. Proposed nerf to R3-A2 droid: start his ability with "Once per turn..."

2 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I understand your sentiment, I really do. I was actually quite OK with the FAQ 4.3.0 when I first read it; uncomfortable a bit to initially swallow, but I grew rather easily OK with it in a day or two.

Now, I may be wrong (I usually find myself there), but I have a lot less than OK feelings towards FAQ 4.3.0 now that it has settled in for almost a month. I know the designers were well intentioned and performed a lot of testing, but I now think they might have missed the mark; missed the real issue while attacking some usual suspects. My (albeit limited) empirical evidence is proving to me that that the actual competitive Meta I rub elbows with has narrowed in squad types rather than expanded in any way.

I think the job was left incomplete. It was pretty transparent what was waiting just underneath and where the game was going to go. Removing half the overpowered cards just focuses ppl onto the design mistakes that are left.

I think if we go deeper and hit TLT/Attani/Munitions then Crack Shot timing may need to change but after that it should be a relatively open field.

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Using an example that my nerf leaves completely unchanged is not a great way of showing why it's a bad thing ;-)

But shall we compare them so directly? Because Proton Torpedoes turn a Focus to a Crit not a Hit to a Crit, and with Guidance Chips they also turn a blank to a hit/crit. And not that many ships ever have to make that decision as they don't have a Cannon and two Torp Slots (does any ship have that?).

Would you like me to expand the point further than I thought it needed to?

It was an illustration of the start of a series of better investments. Lets go on in that vein.

I have 1 torp (say 4pts). = 4pts per shot.

1 torp + EM = 3pts per shot

2 torps + EM = 2.5pts per shot

3 torps + EM = 2.33pts per shot

4 torps + EM - 2.25pts per shot

The limit as n tends to infinity is 2pts per shot for a 4-cost torpedo/missile/bomb.

Now, you'll most likely have to spend a TL on that shot, unless you run deadeye (Punishers/K wings can't do that) and you need chips or scanners to get the action economy, or adv slam if you're bombing.

I'd hardly say its as OP as you seem to think.