14 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

K Wings, I'd assume.

I don't see how K wings are broken really, TLT being a separate matter, even with lots of bombs.

I like @StayOnTheLeader 's math wing type stuff, but I'm not so much a fan of how often he calls for the nerf bat to be wielded. This isn't whack-a-mole.

One Elite K wing with TLT. OK

Two Gold Y wings with TLT gaming 100/6. OK

Epic play and one guy insist he wants to field 12 Y Wing TLT. Unholst your M1911 and start a slow countdown.

TLTs are not bad. With a R3 green bonus even better

So why these suggestions pop up again the same moment we hear that Imperials are getting TLT´s too?

Don´t you think it´s a bit much after the Great Nerf?

Keeping track of regens would be hard, but I´ve seen many games where regen has been used at least 6 times by Corran. Same goes with Poe. If something, that should be nerfed. Not sure how to do it properly.
It´s a different thing with those ships with only 1 shield. They will always get hull hits, no matter how much they regenerate.

3 minutes ago, Hexdot said:

One Elite K wing with TLT. OK

Two Gold Y wings with TLT gaming 100/6. OK

Epic play and one guy insist he wants to field 12 Y Wing TLT. Unholst your M1911 and start a slow countdown.

TLTs are not bad. With a R3 green bonus even better

It's hardly "gaming" 100/6, it's a viable squad that isn't unbeatable. If you're trying to find the best squad for 300pts then 12 TLT Ys should be tested. I reckon 4xIG + 4xThug would be really powerful.

3 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

So why these suggestions pop up again the same moment we hear that Imperials are getting TLT´s too?

Don´t you think it´s a bit much after the Great Nerf?

Keeping track of regens would be hard, but I´ve seen many games where regen has been used at least 6 times by Corran. Same goes with Poe. If something, that should be nerfed. Not sure how to do it properly.
It´s a different thing with those ships with only 1 shield. They will always get hull hits, no matter how much they regenerate.

So also keep track of how many times PTL is used? Because Evade tokens are effectively shields, other than against TLT.

5 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

So why these suggestions pop up again the same moment we hear that Imperials are getting TLT´s too?

Don´t you think it´s a bit much after the Great Nerf?

Keeping track of regens would be hard, but I´ve seen many games where regen has been used at least 6 times by Corran. Same goes with Poe. If something, that should be nerfed. Not sure how to do it properly.
It´s a different thing with those ships with only 1 shield. They will always get hull hits, no matter how much they regenerate.

I disagree, Poe & Corran still die to spike damage. I think it's a good thing that different ships are weak to different types of damage. Poe can tank 4 TLT shots a turn, but not 2 torpedoes. a Decimator can't tank 4 TLT shots but 2 torps are OK.

1 minute ago, Lampyridae said:

So also keep track of how many times PTL is used? Because Evade tokens are effectively shields, other than against TLT.

Don't forget the evade token. If you use more than 3 per game, you should automatically lose.

/s

I don't know about saving X-Wing, but it would make it a lot more fun to fly against TLTs - if they weren't so easy to use.

No, Evade tokens are nothing like shields. And usually it comes with a downside, you can´t have a focus or you get stress if you evade. And yes, PTL is overused.

Poe and Corran die to spike damage, but if you can´t pull it off early in the game, you probably will lose.

Seriously, who actually likes TLTs? Are there players out there that think "Wow what a thematic upgrade card! TLTs remind me of (fill in the blank) film/tv show/book/comic from the Star Wars Universe!"

Or are they really just sad empty husks who are incapable of real human emotion and use TLT to fill some void in their broken sick soul?

TLT. The card people stopped caring about a long time ago until FFG announced that Imperials were going to get it. Now suddenly they're ruining the game again and that's not even out yet.

I hate TLT´s. But it´s only fair that they don´t get nerfed now that the Imperials get them.

But I guess nref would be fine if regen gets nerfed too. Or Emperor gets his power back.

22 minutes ago, ThalanirIII said:

I don't see how K wings are broken really, TLT being a separate matter, even with lots of bombs.

I like @StayOnTheLeader 's math wing type stuff, but I'm not so much a fan of how often you call for the nerf bat to be wielded. This isn't whack-a-mole.

Historical evidence is that when things get nerfed it tends to have a positive effect on the metagame diversity, yet people are still fervently against any discussion of a small number of further nerfs.

Nerfs are good. Let's have more nerfs, flatten the power spikes out and create more viable options. It's a fallacy that nerfing something just makes something else good, what you're usually doing is making 2 or 3 other things good and that opening up of options is the goal to work towards.

Is TLT a balance problem? Maaaaaybe? Is it a game experience problem? Yes, probably, it's one of the most unpopular cards in the game.

Is Attani Mindlink a balance problem? Probably.

Extra Munitions has always been on my radar because it's multipicative value equation is potentially dangerous. At the top end of the scale the Triple K-Wing Bombers are virtually a 120pt list (6pts of Extra Munitions providing 24pts of Bombs). Are the K-Wing bombers a balance problem? Probably not. Are they suppressive to a large range of ships? Definitely.


I'd consider a nerf to R3-A2 as well, just because it's so much better than other stress options that when stress is a good strategy it warps the metagame around who can take it/use it.


I'd also say that I would hope the three things I proposed don't remove those cards entirely from play. TLT still works but the maths of its damage race are a bit less punishing, Attani still works but stress hurts it a little bit more, Ordnance lists still work but relying solely on Ordnance becomes harder.

1 minute ago, BlodVargarna said:

Seriously, who actually likes TLTs? Are there players out there that think "Wow what a thematic upgrade card! TLTs remind me of (fill in the blank) film/tv show/book/comic from the Star Wars Universe!"

Or are they really just sad empty husks who are incapable of real human emotion and use TLT to fill some void in their broken sick soul?

Oh! I didn't realise the only reason I was allowed to like a card was because it was thematic! ****! Now I have to bin the K wings, Punishers, Jumpmasters, E wings, Phantoms, Decimators, Scyks, Khiraxzs, Starvipers, becausde I haven't read the books they appeared in!

NEWSFLASH: Some people enjoy playing this game for reasons other than thematic fun - for example, to enjoy a tactical challenge, or to take a "good squad" and beat it.

4 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Historical evidence is that when things get nerfed it tends to have a positive effect on the metagame diversity, yet people are still fervently against any discussion of a small number of further nerfs.

Nerfs are good. Let's have more nerfs, flatten the power spikes out and create more viable options. It's a fallacy that nerfing something just makes something else good, what you're usually doing is making 2 or 3 other things good and that opening up of options is the goal to work towards.

Is TLT a balance problem? Maaaaaybe? Is it a game experience problem? Yes, probably, it's one of the most unpopular cards in the game.

Is Attani Mindlink a balance problem? Probably.

Extra Munitions has always been on my radar because it's multipicative value equation is potentially dangerous. At the top end of the scale the Triple K-Wing Bombers are virtually a 120pt list (6pts of Extra Munitions providing 24pts of Bombs). Are the K-Wing bombers a balance problem? Probably not. Are they suppressive to a large range of ships? Definitely.


I'd consider a nerf to R3-A2 as well, just because it's so much better than other stress options that when stress is a good strategy it warps the metagame around who can take it/use it.

I'm not fervently against nerfs, I'm just suggesting that nerfing every good card (and some that aren't that good) isn't the way to go.

EM needs to be that cost because comparing Mangler cannon to proton torpedoes, you get 1 extra dice and a slightly better ability, but it's a 1-shot. There needs to be a way of making them cost effective. 2 Proton torps for 3pts per torp is much better. And it gets better when you add more ordnance, making them worth taking.

The players I play with (never against) are SW fans that play with on screen ships every game we play. There VTs, Jumpmasters, etc, but allways # Wings, etc.

Tactical challenge? Yes. SWs fun? Of course.

Just now, ThalanirIII said:

EM needs to be that cost because comparing Mangler cannon to proton torpedoes, you get 1 extra dice and a slightly better ability, but it's a 1-shot. There needs to be a way of making them cost effective. 2 Proton torps for 3pts per torp is much better. And it gets better when you add more ordnance, making them worth taking.

Using an example that my nerf leaves completely unchanged is not a great way of showing why it's a bad thing ;-)

But shall we compare them so directly? Because Proton Torpedoes turn a Focus to a Crit not a Hit to a Crit, and with Guidance Chips they also turn a blank to a hit/crit. And not that many ships ever have to make that decision as they don't have a Cannon and two Torp Slots (does any ship have that?).

12 minutes ago, DarthEnderX said:

TLT. The card people stopped caring about a long time ago until FFG announced that Imperials were going to get it. Now suddenly they're ruining the game again and that's not even out yet.

Incorrect, the JumpMaster's non-nerf discussions merely overshadowed the TLT discussions.

35 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

No, Evade tokens are nothing like shields. And usually it comes with a downside, you can´t have a focus or you get stress if you evade. And yes, PTL is overused.

Poe and Corran die to spike damage, but if you can´t pull it off early in the game, you probably will lose.

R5-P9* and Gonk require actions. R2-D2 doesn't but that requires you to pull a green and of course is vulnerable to ion. All of the other regen options come with opportunity costs.

*And yes I know "spend a Focus"

27 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Using an example that my nerf leaves completely unchanged is not a great way of showing why it's a bad thing ;-)

But shall we compare them so directly? Because Proton Torpedoes turn a Focus to a Crit not a Hit to a Crit, and with Guidance Chips they also turn a blank to a hit/crit. And not that many ships ever have to make that decision as they don't have a Cannon and two Torp Slots (does any ship have that?).

B-Wing. But then it hardly ever takes either option anyway.

23 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Using an example that my nerf leaves completely unchanged is not a great way of showing why it's a bad thing ;-)

But shall we compare them so directly? Because Proton Torpedoes turn a Focus to a Crit not a Hit to a Crit, and with Guidance Chips they also turn a blank to a hit/crit. And not that many ships ever have to make that decision as they don't have a Cannon and two Torp Slots (does any ship have that?).

Yeah, but still, there are several issues with torpedoes and missiles in terms of their cost versus their effectiveness... And EM is not a big deal after unguided missiles (which has potentially infinite value).

With the same logic, you could have problem with Shield Upgrade and r2d2, since in theory, they could multiply their value to infinity.

I have a friend who always has a TLT Y-Wing in his squads when he rebels. It's a ship that you always have to keep your eye on so you can get at range one or stay at range three with ships with AT, but I enjoy facing it, it's fun.

On the other side of this card, I have watched a game with Thug Life on one side of the table one night and my friend truly didn't like facing it; his Aces really got eaten up by them even though he made every attempt to out-fly him; and he did; but he lost with seemingly little cross-table effort. I mean no disrespect and I don't want to be disparaging about builds that I've never flown, but it seems like the quad TLT Y lists are quite the lazy list to fly when you still want to knock some players off the mat anyway. Maybe it's welcome relaxation after flying Aces or bombers all the time, worrying yourself with staying a step or two ahead when setting a kill box or setting up LRS ordinance, perhaps? Maybe it's a sabbatical for players who want to win, but who are burnt out from flying and facing the cutting edge Meta? If it's a players go-to list, I would worry that they are just angry and passive aggressive...for that's what that squad embodies, real passive aggressiveness.

Maybe it needs to be a Unique weapon? I do realize FFG probably thinks opening it up TLTs to the Imperial faction this summer will quell some of the negativity, but it may just fuel the fire if Imp players use it to success. It seems many Imperial first players are searching for a squad that can get back to the top 8 at least. If Imps do make a powerful squad with the Aggressor sporting TLTs, the bile will bubble and burn and the and vile against TLTs will be explosive....I'll wager.

8 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

With the same logic, you could have problem with Shield Upgrade and r2d2, since in theory, they could multiply their value to infinity.

That's, uh... yeah that's a pretty bad example as there's not really much relationship between R2-D2 and Shield Upgrade. You're pretty much always going to regen a shield with R2-D2 whether Shield Upgrade was there or not and only in scenarios where you burn down to 0 shields and then regen back to up 'max +1' has it doubled through. That's a bit different than just starting the game with those extra points in the bank with Extra Munitions.

3 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

That's a bit different than just starting the game with those extra points in the bank with Extra Munitions.

How is infinite value not as good as "more, but finite value"?


Yeah, EM can give a shitload of points... which almost never gets used. Same with any regen abilities.

Regarding Rebel Regen. If I'm not mistaken, there are only four ways to regen shields. 1) R2-D2, 2) R5-P9, 3) Miranda Doni, 4) R2-D2 crew. They all have a draw back. In order, green maneuver, saved focus, attacking, and flipping a damage card. Reading some of these posts makes it seem that Rebel Regen is every ship every turn. You need to adapt your tactics when facing regen lists. Are they tough to fly against? Yes. Are they unbeatable? No!

The same applies to the TLT. If they were so OP, you'd be seeing Y + TLT x4 everywhere. You don't .

X-wing is like Rochambeau, rock-paper-scissors. Except no auto wins. Some lists are better against certain other builds than others. I really think that a lot of the calls for nerfs are due to two things. One, "my favorite squad or faction doesn't do well vs (insert boogeyman here). And two, newer players are stymied when playing against (insert any boogeyman here).

There may be a time when FFG decides to modify the rules for TLT use but till then relax, enjoy a great game and revel in the fact that there are at least four more star wars movies coming out.