29 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Mindlink trivially shrugs off double stress unless you double stress all the ships. All it needs is for one ship to do a green and get an action and they all get focus.

You'll probably never part Assaj from Latts.

It's not Soontir's 'double stress and he's dead',but double stressing the usual Focus battery of a mindlink list still gives you some pretty big advantage.

One ship gets no action (but will receive a Focus).

One ship MUST do a green, in order to provide Focus for the whole list to get their Focus.

All others need to do a green if they want another action apart from Focus.

Not crippling but a pretty big step down from the usual 2 actions.

33 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

25 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

It's not Soontir's 'double stress and he's dead',but double stressing the usual Focus battery of a mindlink list still gives you some pretty big advantage.

One ship gets no action (but will receive a Focus).

One ship MUST do a green, in order to provide Focus for the whole list to get their Focus.

All others need to do a green if they want another action apart from Focus.

Not crippling but a pretty big step down from the usual 2 actions.

I don't deny it makes a difference, but it makes a lot less difference than people expect, especially when most if not all strong Mindlink lists have excellent greens anyway.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

I don't deny it makes a difference, but it makes a lot less difference than people expect, especially when most if not all strong Mindlink lists have excellent greens anyway.

From my experience with playing pre-nerf Parattani, especially in mirror matches or vs. Kylo Ren's shuttle the effect is pretty brutal.

I think people expect too much from stress. It's not an instantaneous shut down button (like it is for a PtL ace), but in the long run it makes the Attani list a great deal more predictable. That's a serious advantage if you can capitalise on it.

I guess it depends on what kind of list you are playing against. A parattani list can need more actions than only focus (change arc, TL/boost/evade for Fenn, Barrel roll to block with Mana, etc), while a Uboat kind of list is probably more content about it because they only really need a focus to get started.

11 hours ago, Shenannigan said:

Yes action economy has always been important thing in the game but more importantly, consistency. The corollary of this is that the most consistent ships are the most action efficient because dice mods and inherent abilities increase what the expected result is at

Consistently since the the beginning of the game, the top tier lists are the lists that get the best value from their points and usually the worlds winning list has been the best of the best. You find that ship thats better than its points and find the most consistent/ efficient version.

At large scale therefore long tournaments, dice variance happens. The winning lists mitigate this by consistently performing the same every game rounds one through twelve.

Starting in 2014 because that's when I came into the game.

2014- c3po provided the same defense ever time, predator and Han the same attack.

2015- tlt is incredibly consistent damage. Biggs allows for consistent application of damage and poes ability makes his attacks and defense above average every time.

2016- dangaroo- you can shut down dengar. He's got mods, he's got rerolls, he's got zuckuss so the opponent is consistently rolling below average

2017 prediction unless things change. tlt. Bombs. Stress. Things that are always consistent damage output while disrupting the overall consistency of the opponents

---

Action economy is good but it's only half the story.

This.

...reading it more than once makes the point all the better, well analyzed sir, well analyzed.

12 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Uh, what?

Imperials have always had incredible action economy.

• Howlrunner was like a mini-TL for all her swarm friends, except it was far more flexible than having to manage range/activation for real TLs
• Fel gets 3 Actions a round off of PtL.
• Whisper gets a free Focus (ability) and a free Target Lock (FCS) and a free Cloak (ACD).
• Inquisitor (and all TAPs) get a free Evade from TL.
• X7s give a free Evade.
• Vessery gets a free TL.
• FCS and Comm Relay provide action-economy for many Imp ships (Omega Leader, Lamdba, Upsilon, TIE/SF, etc.).
• TIE Strikers get a free (though mandatory) Boost via AA.
• Isard, Fleet Officer, System Officer, and General Hux are all Imperial-only crew that give action-economy, and Kallus is a mini-Focus.
• RAC has built-in free mini-Focus effects, and Dauntless has provided Decis with actions even in the face of blocking.
• Turr Phennir gets a free Boost/BR and was once a terror of the stars.
• The Upsilon's Coordinate action is the pinnacle of action-economy on Striden, because it is R1-3 and not limited to action-bar actions.
• etc. etc. etc.

Seriously, I dunno what the hell you are on about, OP, but Imperials have ALWAYS been a king of action-stacking, though it's true Scum rolled along with Mindlink, Overclocked, and Manaroo and have sort of challenged them a bit at it. But still, Imperial meta-definers (starting with Howlrunner, including Whisper, Fel/Inq, and X7s among others) have been pinnacles of action-stacking. I swear, Imperial fans are a bunch of self-righteous folks with persecution complexes... they are always the victim in their mind.

Howlrunner is 18+ pts with a R1 restriction - swarms might return but unless something else changes (Wave 11) I don't see it happening personally.

Fel requires PTL and must not be blocked. He is also a Squint and we don't see many of those around unless they're a certain Royal Guard.

Die-hard Phantom players aside, Whisper is made of glass and is currently out of the competitive scene

Inquisitor requires PTL and must not be blocked, he also auto-loses to Kylo (Crew) and Sabine-powered bombs

X7s took a hit with the nerf bat, now they are just good

Vessery is PS 6

No serious Imperial player uses Comm Relay and FCS, for reasons that should be obvious

TIE Strikers are DOA in the current turret and bomb meta

No one uses them, as they belong on ships that are currently underperforming

Turr, hehe. He went the way of all non-Carnor Interceptors..

Coordinate is good, but the ship handles like a brick and imho is slightly overcosted for something you can just rush and get behind

etc. etc. etc.

Meanwhile Scum can take K4, all it requires is a green maneuver, guess which ship currently has the best dial for that?

Yup.

Dengar Crew? Sweet Jesus, he should have been 4pts as he's Predator on 'roids, without eating up your EPT

Then we have Aggromechs, Unhinged, Atanni, etc. etc. etc.

So while Imperials can get action economy/free actions, most of them are either restricted to outdated/obsolete ship types or are too strict compared to JM5K Atanni lists.

Come on FFG, just remove the fracking EPT from Contracted Scouts already.

That would take Rebels to the top and leave Scum and Imperials tied for second place.

1 hour ago, Keffisch said:

Howlrunner is 18+ pts with a R1 restriction - swarms might return but unless something else changes (Wave 11) I don't see it happening personally.

Fel requires PTL and must not be blocked. He is also a Squint and we don't see many of those around unless they're a certain Royal Guard.

Die-hard Phantom players aside, Whisper is made of glass and is currently out of the competitive scene

Inquisitor requires PTL and must not be blocked, he also auto-loses to Kylo (Crew) and Sabine-powered bombs

X7s took a hit with the nerf bat, now they are just good

Vessery is PS 6

No serious Imperial player uses Comm Relay and FCS, for reasons that should be obvious

TIE Strikers are DOA in the current turret and bomb meta

No one uses them, as they belong on ships that are currently underperforming

Turr, hehe. He went the way of all non-Carnor Interceptors..

Coordinate is good, but the ship handles like a brick and imho is slightly overcosted for something you can just rush and get behind

etc. etc. etc.

Meanwhile Scum can take K4, all it requires is a green maneuver, guess which ship currently has the best dial for that?

Yup.

Dengar Crew? Sweet Jesus, he should have been 4pts as he's Predator on 'roids, without eating up your EPT

Then we have Aggromechs, Unhinged, Atanni, etc. etc. etc.

So while Imperials can get action economy/free actions, most of them are either restricted to outdated/obsolete ship types or are too strict compared to JM5K Atanni lists.

Come on FFG, just remove the fracking EPT from Contracted Scouts already.

That would take Rebels to the top and leave Scum and Imperials tied for second place.

Personally, I would prefer that my faction (Rebels) be somewhat underpowered.

Now the real problem is, the game of TIE Fighters and X-Wings from Star Wars now looks like a game of spaceships. Toilet Seats (which are frankly the cheapest-looking, ugliest-looking non-Star Wars-iest ship in the game) are on every table. Those tables sell the game.

13 hours ago, banjobenito said:

Holding Jake up as stronger than Fenn is ... I mean ... what?

Jake when Jake was strong is stronger than Fenn is now. Yes.

Fenn at best gets 2 actions, but once his buddies are killed he's limited to just 1, and sometimes has to focus for the team when there's bumps or someone else needs to reposition. Jake was always capable of taking 3 actions every turn, and on top of that he had an Evade action and shields. Fenn is only stronger now because of Ventress, but take her off the table and Jake is stronger than Fenn.

17 hours ago, Zazaa said:

Well maybe people should bring stress builds to counter mindlinks, its just about what you do with your lists. If you see list that Paul Heaver is currently been playing you see how fast those action economy lists fall down.

He did say that Rebels are equal part action economy and denial... Imperials have almost none of that. Giving only one stress during the combat phase (Rebel Captive, Mara Jade and Tactician) isnt really denial since your oponent can clear it before taking their action on the next round.

18 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

Although the Empire should have great AE according to SW Cannon, they don't. Their highly trained, equipped and vaunted Aces who once sported it --as they could deal with the self-stress to attain it-- now have what little they can muster taken away when the squeeze is on. Plus, the only auto-AE has been nerfed.

I havent read the 3 pages of posts since you started the thread but i got a feeling that all the naysayers are already active and denying your action :-)

3 minutes ago, Thormind said:

I haven't read the 3 pages of posts since you started the thread but i got a feeling that all the naysayers are already active and denying your action :-)

Haha, yes. I feel a bit less active sometimes post-read. There have been some awesome points and counterpoints however. Lots of sharp players on this forum.

12 hours ago, Shenannigan said:

Yes action economy has always been important thing in the game but more importantly, consistency. The corollary of this is that the most consistent ships are the most action efficient because dice mods and inherent abilities increase what the expected result is at

2017 prediction unless things change. tlt. Bombs. Stress. Things that are always consistent damage output while disrupting the overall consistency of the opponents

Action economy is good but it's only half the story.

This.

It really is Action Economy with consistency; Shenannigan is correct and enlightened me. It truly is the consistent action givers and deniers that have solid hit points and are maneuverable who are at the top of the Meta....and there are actually only a handful of ships that have all of those attributes.

1 hour ago, DerekT said:

Jake when Jake was strong is stronger than Fenn is now. Yes.

This is nonsense.

1 minute ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

This is nonsense.

3 actions > 2 actions

I'm assuming the point is that Jake is better at action economy than Fenn, not that Jake is better than Fenn generally.

It's an accurate point but not really meaningful.

7 minutes ago, DerekT said:

3 actions > 2 actions

Umm, this doesn't mean Jake is better than Fenn, which was absolutely your claim. You said that "Jake, when Jake was strong, was better than Fenn is now." Which implies temporally-specific (meta-specific) power levels, not a mere count of number of actions. It is certainly not true that Jake was more powerful than Fenn, given that even in his prime Jake did not win many, if any, large tournaments (75+ players). Meanwhile, Fenn has been winning tournaments with hundreds of players on a fairly impressive basis.

Also, I'd argue that Fenn really has something like 2.25 or 2.5 actions a turn, since he gets that free Evade result from CDP on his ideal attacks. Not that comparing brute number of actions means much when talking about relative strength, since you know 5 Attack Dice on every attack is a helluva lot better than 5 Dice on a prockets then 3 Attack Dice the rest of the game. Jake was also vulnerable to collisions and stress, whereas with Mindlink Fenn can always bank on minimally being Focused and sometimes Evaded (CDP) even while stressed. This is the sort of stuff Jake could only dream about...

15 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Seriously, I dunno what the hell you are on about, OP, but Imperials have ALWAYS been a king of action-stacking, though it's true Scum rolled along with Mindlink, Overclocked, and Manaroo and have sort of challenged them a bit at it. But still, Imperial meta-definers (starting with Howlrunner, including Whisper, Fel/Inq, and X7s among others) have been pinnacles of action-stacking. I swear, Imperial fans are a bunch of self-righteous folks with persecution complexes... they are always the victim in their mind.

IKR?! That's why Imperials are just dominating the meta..... Oh yeah...

Yes. Palp and x7 were stupid good. But they got hit with the nerf hammer. Mindlink didn't. TLTs didn't. Large base ships didn't. Regens everywhere didn't. 16 health with 4 banked and 4 shots and rerolls a turn didn't.

Quite a few Imperial players don't run x7s and if they don't their AE is on fragile frames that die, while rebels and scum mount theirs on extremely durable ships that can often ignore short burst damage

And your list of examples is pretty disingenuous... you've listed non actions, universal modifications, and bonuses in general along with actions.... seeking to impress a group of players that aside from one ship (decimator) have no access to turrets, astromechs, illicit, healing, shield regeneration, SLAM, many crew that aid in the above, most forms of stress control, and a few other neat tricks that basically all dominate the meta... and then the one really good trick we have, arc dodging, is quickly becoming a non-sequitur in combat... is going to be pretty fruitless. When's the last time old AE Fel showed up in a top list?

Action Economy itself is pretty worthless. AE with insane durability and other mechanics in the meta like 6 dice primaries is gold, and in that arena Imperials simply are on the outside looking in. And most imp players like the AE maneuverable thing. They don't want TLT too... they their stuff to work as intended

I'd complain too

1 hour ago, Lobokai said:

IKR?! That's why Imperials are just dominating the meta..... Oh yeah...

Yes. Palp and x7 were stupid good. But they got hit with the nerf hammer. Mindlink didn't. TLTs didn't. Large base ships didn't. Regens everywhere didn't. 16 health with 4 banked and 4 shots and rerolls a turn didn't.

Quite a few Imperial players don't run x7s and if they don't their AE is on fragile frames that die, while rebels and scum mount theirs on extremely durable ships that can often ignore short burst damage

And your list of examples is pretty disingenuous... you've listed non actions, universal modifications, and bonuses in general along with actions.... seeking to impress a group of players that aside from one ship (decimator) have no access to turrets, astromechs, illicit, healing, shield regeneration, SLAM, many crew that aid in the above, most forms of stress control, and a few other neat tricks that basically all dominate the meta... and then the one really good trick we have, arc dodging, is quickly becoming a non-sequitur in combat... is going to be pretty fruitless. When's the last time old AE Fel showed up in a top list?

Action Economy itself is pretty worthless. AE with insane durability and other mechanics in the meta like 6 dice primaries is gold, and in that arena Imperials simply are on the outside looking in. And most imp players like the AE maneuverable thing. They don't want TLT too... they their stuff to work as intended

I'd complain too

Alleluia!!! Since when having one free evade is a stack (x7, inq) or rerolling (Howl) or having one free lock from fcs (whisper)?? The only pilot that's stacking in his example is Fel. But then again hes on a paper thin frame so he needs that protection. Doesnt matter now since so many damage source can bypass his defense and go burn him like spray-neted hair :-)

The things that are defining the Imperial faction dont work anymore. Just look at the Tie striker. A couple of waves ago it would have been a really good ship. On the other hand they took an uncompetitive Tie fighter frame and gave it some of that rebel survivability and AE. And oh magic, it works!

Palp and X7 would have been stupid good a couple waves ago. In the current meta they were the only competitive options available to Imperials. They were not even close to dominating

6 hours ago, LordBlades said:

From my experience with playing pre-nerf Parattani, especially in mirror matches or vs. Kylo Ren's shuttle the effect is pretty brutal.

I think people expect too much from stress. It's not an instantaneous shut down button (like it is for a PtL ace), but in the long run it makes the Attani list a great deal more predictable. That's a serious advantage if you can capitalise on it.

And this is what is crazy. The "counter" to Attani essentially turns it into a 3 point upgrade (PTL) for a turn for 2 of your ships, and is a minor inconvenience for the 3rd who is still getting an action if they can clear the stress. If they can't, then darn. 2 of your 3 ships are normal for a turn while the ship that is still getting 2 actions pays the actual cost for PTL (as the 3 cost mindlinks are still getting him an action), and even the stressed ship (even if it is DOUBLE STRESSED) still gets actions.

2 hours ago, Kdubb said:

2 of your 3 ships are normal for a turn

1 action per turn stopped being normal for competitive ships a long time ago.

IMO it's one of the reasons ships designed with this paradigm in mind can't compete, unless in very rare cases.

They could up the agility on some ships. Make Interceptors agility 4 perhaps.

Add more shipspecific titles or mod cards.

Red Squadron Refit: mod T-65 only: While defending and within range 2 of another friendly ship with this upgrade, this ship gains +1 agility.

When the game started you had 1 stat 1-9 and 4 stats 1-5 and 3 actions and 5 slots. That's pretty simple. Those simple ships now compete with a 1-12 stat, and 4 stats that range from 0 to 12, (and have been generally moving "up") and 8 actions (and some ept actions), and 10 slots. They just can't compete.

That's without talking about dial improvement overall and access to new maneuvers entirely.

And the Rebels, Scum or otherwise, always are hating on the imperials. We are the best whether we get the best stuff or not.

4 hours ago, LordBlades said:

1 action per turn stopped being normal for competitive ships a long time ago.

IMO it's one of the reasons ships designed with this paradigm in mind can't compete, unless in very rare cases.

Which, if you can't count on a naked generic paying for itself, that's an issue.

5 hours ago, Kdubb said:

Which, if you can't count on a naked generic paying for itself, that's an issue.

Theoretically yes, it's an issue.

Practically it's been happening for so long we might as well accept it as a design quirk of the game.

I've been playing since Wave 6 and the game I saw since then has never been about naked generics. It's usually named pilots that can stack actions and/or effects. Action Economy has been the name of the game for a long time. Even the most generic squad that managed to be competitive (crack swarm) relies heavily on Crack Shots and Howlrunner (which is half of a free TL).

4 hours ago, LordBlades said:

Theoretically yes, it's an issue.

Practically it's been happening for so long we might as well accept it as a design quirk of the game.

I've been playing since Wave 6 and the game I saw since then has never been about naked generics. It's usually named pilots that can stack actions and/or effects. Action Economy has been the name of the game for a long time. Even the most generic squad that managed to be competitive (crack swarm) relies heavily on Crack Shots and Howlrunner (which is half of a free TL).

They decided to break away from generics after wave 3 when people where in full cry mode against swarms. That's why most unique pilots from wave 4+ had been undercosted compared to the generics for the most part.

That has aways been the case, because extra actions are the only thing you can't "fly better" at all, making them the only dealbreaker that is not randomness in a hypothetical otherwise perfectly even Match.

1 hour ago, DreadStar said:

They decided to break away from generics after wave 3 when people where in full cry mode against swarms. That's why most unique pilots from wave 4+ had been undercosted compared to the generics for the most part.

Keep in mind that in this era of (mostly) 1-action ships, the TIE fighter was by far the best.