10 minutes ago, banjobenito said:

That list has zero action economy, only action passing! Attani lists, on the other hand, have control-resistant action economy of the highest order, at the lowest price, on any scum ship that can take an ept. That's what's being discussed here, when you get down to it...

Gunner + FCS is action economy best economy.

8 minutes ago, DerekT said:

Gunner + FCS is action economy best economy.

Gunner is an action?? You've lost me now.

As for FCS, it's strong but, I mean, it's not a patch on Attani. Mainly due to some built-in limitations: 1) its timing 2) the very inflexible nature of a TL vs a focus 3) the exponential benefit of focus for everyone vs a single tl that is limited to one enemy ship and 4) the rareness of the system slot/double the cost.

Finally, FCS is overshadowed by Dengar, K4 Security droid, agromech, etc... Nothing throws shade on Attani.

Gunner allows you to proc FCS before your second shot. I know it's not technically taking an extra action since it's "acquire" a target lock not perform a target lock action, but if that's the argument against it, then Mindlink isn't action economy either since it only assigns focus tokens.

Okay, I guess 7pts of cards - in a combo that can only be taken on 6 ships in the game - does come close to matching the action economy of one ship in an Attani list...

X-Wing is essentially made up of 2 elements: efficiency in the form of action economy vs control, which is the counter to that action economy. For example the stress mechanic removes efficiency by preventing actions (to improve board position, increase offense / defence). Some elements of control ignore action efficiency in certain contexts - for example bombs ignore the application of action efficiency to improve an evade dice pool. The strongest pilots and upgrades in X-Wing are those that excel in either direction (Miranda, Sontir Fell, Fenn Rau, R3-A2, Push the Limit etc).

17 minutes ago, banjobenito said:

Okay, I guess 7pts of cards - in a combo that can only be taken on 6 ships in the game - does come close to matching the action economy of one ship in an Attani list...

Degnaroo had 35+ points of upgrades for a single ship just to get a bit of action economy. What's your point?

I've made my point already...

I mentioned Attani as a new level in AE, something that is pretty well accepted now (and is certainly not an original insight). You replied by giving FCS & Gunner as a counterexample, and claimed that this represented a better AE. I pointed out that your counterexample was more costly, much more restrictive & harder to achieve, and less economical that Attani, in terms of AE. My points were intended to make your conclusion untenable, whilst strengthening the inference of mine.

2 hours ago, Ailowynn said:

One more reason Attani is busted as ****. Insane action efficiency, and no way to shut it off.

Would it be lest busted if it had a range limitation? Or if it wasn't limited to single tokens of each. I.E. You can receive a token even if you've already one of the same type. There are a lot of stress mechanics out there; dealing [multiple[ stress to an entire squad would certainly cause some reconsideration of how it was used.

11 minutes ago, banjobenito said:

I've made my point already...

I mentioned Attani as a new level in AE, something that is pretty well accepted now (and is certainly not an original insight). You replied by giving FCS & Gunner as a counterexample, and claimed that this represented a better AE. I pointed out that your counterexample was more costly, much more restrictive & harder to achieve, and less economical that Attani, in terms of AE. My points were intended to make your conclusion untenable, whilst strengthening the inference of mine.

And you've missed the plot. The Upsilon has coordinate. It gets to pass actions as well as pick up actions from FCS/Gunner. Mindlink gives bulk actions, which is strong, but not nearly as powerful and making sure your actions get onto the right ships. Mindlink Rau is strong, but not as strong as Soontir or Jake were at their height because they got to concentrate action economy into a single ship.

Scum action economy is old news, stop making these crybaby threads.

Third complaint thread by you in a week.

33 minutes ago, Skargoth said:

Scum action economy is old news, stop making these crybaby threads.

Third complaint thread by you in a week.

Oh no, there's a yellow flag in the post. Look's like the call is going to be unnecessary rudeness.

Sure stress doesn't stop the focus passing of Mindlink, but that stress gets passed too. Deal with that stress, you must. Even Guri can pass those focuses with stress but, you know, no reds, no native actions. Gotta stop something.

45 minutes ago, DerekT said:

And you've missed the plot. The Upsilon has coordinate.

In the very first sentence in which I responded to you, I referred to this: "That list has zero action economy, only action passing!" Sorry, but you've failed to read your interlocutor's words, and then blamed them for ignoring the thing you didn't notice. FCS I've already responded to.

45 minutes ago, DerekT said:

Mindlink Rau is strong, but not as strong as Soontir or Jake were at their height because they got to concentrate action economy into a single ship.

Holding Jake up as stronger than Fenn is ... I mean ... what?

29 minutes ago, Skargoth said:

Scum action economy is old news, stop making these crybaby threads.

Third complaint thread by you in a week.

No crying here. I may be late to the party, but I'm figuring it out. It's not even complaining, it's quite positive if you look at the glass half-full (though the glass is always full even if there is only a fraction of it liquid). Yes, I'll need a few new ships to have a squad that takes advantage of AE, but it's more crack for me and $$$ for FFG.

Uh, what?

Imperials have always had incredible action economy.

• Howlrunner was like a mini-TL for all her swarm friends, except it was far more flexible than having to manage range/activation for real TLs
• Fel gets 3 Actions a round off of PtL.
• Whisper gets a free Focus (ability) and a free Target Lock (FCS) and a free Cloak (ACD).
• Inquisitor (and all TAPs) get a free Evade from TL.
• X7s give a free Evade.
• Vessery gets a free TL.
• FCS and Comm Relay provide action-economy for many Imp ships (Omega Leader, Lamdba, Upsilon, TIE/SF, etc.).
• TIE Strikers get a free (though mandatory) Boost via AA.
• Isard, Fleet Officer, System Officer, and General Hux are all Imperial-only crew that give action-economy, and Kallus is a mini-Focus.
• RAC has built-in free mini-Focus effects, and Dauntless has provided Decis with actions even in the face of blocking.
• Turr Phennir gets a free Boost/BR and was once a terror of the stars.
• The Upsilon's Coordinate action is the pinnacle of action-economy on Striden, because it is R1-3 and not limited to action-bar actions.
• etc. etc. etc.

Seriously, I dunno what the hell you are on about, OP, but Imperials have ALWAYS been a king of action-stacking, though it's true Scum rolled along with Mindlink, Overclocked, and Manaroo and have sort of challenged them a bit at it. But still, Imperial meta-definers (starting with Howlrunner, including Whisper, Fel/Inq, and X7s among others) have been pinnacles of action-stacking. I swear, Imperial fans are a bunch of self-righteous folks with persecution complexes... they are always the victim in their mind.

46 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Uh, what?

Imperials have always had incredible action economy.

• Howlrunner was like a mini-TL for all her swarm friends, except it was far more flexible than having to manage range/activation for real TLs
• Fel gets 3 Actions a round off of PtL.
• Whisper gets a free Focus (ability) and a free Target Lock (FCS) and a free Cloak (ACD).
• Inquisitor (and all TAPs) get a free Evade from TL.
• X7s give a free Evade.
• Vessery gets a free TL.
• FCS and Comm Relay provide action-economy for many Imp ships (Omega Leader, Lamdba, Upsilon, TIE/SF, etc.).
• TIE Strikers get a free (though mandatory) Boost via AA.
• Isard, Fleet Officer, System Officer, and General Hux are all Imperial-only crew that give action-economy, and Kallus is a mini-Focus.
• RAC has built-in free mini-Focus effects, and Dauntless has provided Decis with actions even in the face of blocking.
• Turr Phennir gets a free Boost/BR and was once a terror of the stars.
• The Upsilon's Coordinate action is the pinnacle of action-economy on Striden, because it is R1-3 and not limited to action-bar actions.
• etc. etc. etc.

Seriously, I dunno what the hell you are on about, OP, but Imperials have ALWAYS been a king of action-stacking, though it's true Scum rolled along with Mindlink, Overclocked, and Manaroo and have sort of challenged them a bit at it. But still, Imperial meta-definers (starting with Howlrunner, including Whisper, Fel/Inq, and X7s among others) have been pinnacles of action-stacking. I swear, Imperial fans are a bunch of self-righteous folks with persecution complexes... they are always the victim in their mind.

Quite the detail, I agree Imps use to be the faction that had great AE, but now?

So do you not recommend I get 2 jumps and a protectorate to enjoy the fun? I've seen some guys fly it, and it looks like it's a blast; and powerful. I'm all-in!

It is common knowledge that when it first came out there were ways to roll 7 attack dice but you had to have a very specific build (one that would not likely win tournaments) and also have an exact set up that almost need your opponent's cooperation to pull off. The average attack strength was just above 2. Rolling 3 was good and 4 was the most common power attack.

Well now there are more ways to roll 4 dice, 5 dice and even 7 dice. 3 attack dice is no longer above average but more of the average. 2 attack dice was always below average but wasn't a full die below average, not to mention there are more ways to completely shut down 2 dice attacks than just have 3-4 green dice evades.

So yeah, Red dice have seen a power creep. But I think that is more of the result of how defense has diversified but attacks hasn't. In a post I did here, I mention why TLTs act so differently than all other attacks and it is that difference that makes them so much superior compared to other attacks.

Yes action economy has always been important thing in the game but more importantly, consistency. The corollary of this is that the most consistent ships are the most action efficient because dice mods and inherent abilities increase what the expected result is at

Consistently since the the beginning of the game, the top tier lists are the lists that get the best value from their points and usually the worlds winning list has been the best of the best. You find that ship thats better than its points and find the most consistent/ efficient version.

At large scale therefore long tournaments, dice variance happens. The winning lists mitigate this by consistently performing the same every game rounds one through twelve.

Starting in 2014 because that's when I came into the game.

2014- c3po provided the same defense ever time, predator and Han the same attack.

2015- tlt is incredibly consistent damage. Biggs allows for consistent application of damage and poes ability makes his attacks and defense above average every time.

2016- dangaroo- you can shut down dengar. He's got mods, he's got rerolls, he's got zuckuss so the opponent is consistently rolling below average

2017 prediction unless things change. tlt. Bombs. Stress. Things that are always consistent damage output while disrupting the overall consistency of the opponents

---

Action economy is good but it's only half the story.

I think it is time for the BTLA4 Y Wing to find its way back into the meta.

An Attani list can easily shrug off one stress. Two is a different story. As a bonus, the Y Wing doesn't even need to keep a ship in arc. It can hit (scratch that---aim at) any ship in the list for two turns, and chances are you can focus something down in the next two to three action less turns. If it happens enough, Parattani might drop Latts for Inspiring Recruit, making Assaj easier to kill.

I know people complain that they die too easy to bring into games against other things. (Although double stressing a Defender is good now, too). There should just be a gentleman's agreement to not alpha strike the y wings in lists until they have a chance to reign in the meta lol.

This is an interesting discussion, especially after what I noticed today. So I was really bored today, so I tried out the Xwing AI thingy you can pull up online. I played a saber squad interceptor and two black squadrons against Garvin and a gold with Ion turret. With the AIs, it tells you to give the them a free target lock every turn as a free action. So basically this Xwing and Ywing were getting target lock focus every time unless they bumped. That is what got me thinking about how if older ships had the action economey newer ships have, that would go a long way. unfortunatly, it would be really hard to fix.

TL;DR Xwings/Ywings are great with double actions.

2 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Uh, what?

Imperials have always had incredible action economy.

• Howlrunner was like a mini-TL for all her swarm friends, except it was far more flexible than having to manage range/activation for real TLs
• Fel gets 3 Actions a round off of PtL.
• Whisper gets a free Focus (ability) and a free Target Lock (FCS) and a free Cloak (ACD).
• Inquisitor (and all TAPs) get a free Evade from TL.
• X7s give a free Evade.
• Vessery gets a free TL.
• FCS and Comm Relay provide action-economy for many Imp ships (Omega Leader, Lamdba, Upsilon, TIE/SF, etc.).
• TIE Strikers get a free (though mandatory) Boost via AA.
• Isard, Fleet Officer, System Officer, and General Hux are all Imperial-only crew that give action-economy, and Kallus is a mini-Focus.
• RAC has built-in free mini-Focus effects, and Dauntless has provided Decis with actions even in the face of blocking.
• Turr Phennir gets a free Boost/BR and was once a terror of the stars.
• The Upsilon's Coordinate action is the pinnacle of action-economy on Striden, because it is R1-3 and not limited to action-bar actions.
• etc. etc. etc.

Seriously, I dunno what the hell you are on about, OP, but Imperials have ALWAYS been a king of action-stacking, though it's true Scum rolled along with Mindlink, Overclocked, and Manaroo and have sort of challenged them a bit at it. But still, Imperial meta-definers (starting with Howlrunner, including Whisper, Fel/Inq, and X7s among others) have been pinnacles of action-stacking. I swear, Imperial fans are a bunch of self-righteous folks with persecution complexes... they are always the victim in their mind.

Jeez, did an Imperial player murder your family or something? Every faction complains at some point when the meta shifts. Previously it was Rebels when they were being downtrodden by Jumpmasters and Defenders. Now it's the Imperials' turn.

I think OP's point was that Action Economy was always the Empire's schtick, but now Rebel stress control is back in full force while Scum has access to PTL-level action economy that's resilient to stress (Mindlink).

It's less about acutal action economy these days and more about granting/denying action economy + being resilient against things that deny actions.

I think its more action surplus than action economy at this point. FFG talks about risk and reward... yet the TLT and Mindlink seem to be quite a lot of reward with only minor risk

6 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Imperial fans are a bunch of self-righteous folks with persecution complexes... they are always the victim in their mind.

How rude! No wonder Imperial fans have persecution complexes when they are being victimised like this.

- An Imperial Fan

It is quite hilarious indeed that the imperial player complains about AE when the two (still) most common imperial pilots these days (Ryad and Vessery) both get 3 actions per turn. On top of being able to turn around stress-free.

If anything, it's the rebels who are least able to perform multiple actions. Their only PTL-friendly fighter is the A-wing and as much as I love Jake, his firepower is just no longer cutting it. His alpha isn't powerful enough to take out a defender early on (as was the case with interceptors) and once prockets are used, his offense is just terribly underwhelming.

Other rebels need to rely on tricks such as Rey or Jyn to achieve a decent AE but these solutions are far more restrictive and inflexible than something like mindlink or even PTL. Rebel's saving grace then is control, regeneration and/or unique access to very powerful bombers, which largely circumvent the defensive advantage of token stacking. It's hardly surprising then that Paul Heaver's list contained all 3 of the above on top of Bigg's disruptive effect to partly mitigate the lack of defensive AE.

The downside is that the variety of rebel lists is severely limited these days. Signature rebel fighters such as X-wings (Biggs aside) and B-wings seem to have no place in the meta.

6 hours ago, Elrodthealbino said:

I think it is time for the BTLA4 Y Wing to find its way back into the meta.

An Attani list can easily shrug off one stress. Two is a different story. As a bonus, the Y Wing doesn't even need to keep a ship in arc. It can hit (scratch that---aim at) any ship in the list for two turns, and chances are you can focus something down in the next two to three action less turns. If it happens enough, Parattani might drop Latts for Inspiring Recruit, making Assaj easier to kill.

Mindlink trivially shrugs off double stress unless you double stress all the ships. All it needs is for one ship to do a green and get an action and they all get focus.

You'll probably never part Assaj from Latts.